Great post! I agree with you, I did say that it means too much to him. I think my last line was more to explain how I feel that the pressure turns him inwards and takes him off his game. He's not a rabid dog chasing victory, and he doesn't even hate losing, he's chasing an individual legacy that he wants in a Leafs jersey. He's not hungry for success, he's fueled by envy.
The core players are showing their true colors again
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Fogelhund
Registered User
- Sep 15, 2007
- 24,349
- 29,462
5 v 5
For 2022-23 it's what they are pacing for
Matthews
2021-22 38 goals, 244 shots 15.57% shooting
2022-23 8.2 goals, 295 shots, 2.78% shooting
Marner
2021-22 22 goals 129 shots 17.05% shooting
2022-23 16.2 goals 82 shots, 20% shooting
Tavares on ice for 3 goals for, 8 goals against -5
Rielly on ice for 9 goals for 14 against -5
Remarkably
Giordano on ice 6 goals for, 1 against
Malgin on ice 3 goals for, 0 against
Robertson on ice 4 goals for 2 against.
I remember last year, we heard all about how hard they worked in the summer... Marner worked on his shot, and there was an air of confidence there. Now Marner isn't shooting at nearly the same rate, down approx a third. Matthews has gone from nearly 16% 5v5 shooting to below 3% shooting.
Did these guys just completely take the summer off, and forget how to hockey? Their body language is completely different on the ice this year, like they aren't the same players.. maybe losing last year broke them?
Tavares and Rielly minus 5 each already? Pacing for a laughable minus 40 on the year?
Team being lead in 5v5 results by Gio, Malgin and Robertson???
I get all the anger, and the blame game at the moment... mad at Dubas for the Marner contract... I mean he's been an excellent player for us until this year... and now we get mental lapses, not shooting. Out of Matthews, his shot is terrible and he looks sluggish. It's not Dubas or Keefe's fault that these guys have showed up this year, and aren't ready to play, or have checked out...
Tavares and Rielly have become giant liabilities so far this year....
Sure, coaches and GM's get fired when teams don't meet expectations, and this group certainly isn't meeting expectations... but this is a player problem, far more than a coach or GM problem. None of us are in the room to know what's going on, to understand why Matthews and Marner aren't prepared for this season, and seem mentally checked out at times.
Strange times.
For 2022-23 it's what they are pacing for
Matthews
2021-22 38 goals, 244 shots 15.57% shooting
2022-23 8.2 goals, 295 shots, 2.78% shooting
Marner
2021-22 22 goals 129 shots 17.05% shooting
2022-23 16.2 goals 82 shots, 20% shooting
Tavares on ice for 3 goals for, 8 goals against -5
Rielly on ice for 9 goals for 14 against -5
Remarkably
Giordano on ice 6 goals for, 1 against
Malgin on ice 3 goals for, 0 against
Robertson on ice 4 goals for 2 against.
I remember last year, we heard all about how hard they worked in the summer... Marner worked on his shot, and there was an air of confidence there. Now Marner isn't shooting at nearly the same rate, down approx a third. Matthews has gone from nearly 16% 5v5 shooting to below 3% shooting.
Did these guys just completely take the summer off, and forget how to hockey? Their body language is completely different on the ice this year, like they aren't the same players.. maybe losing last year broke them?
Tavares and Rielly minus 5 each already? Pacing for a laughable minus 40 on the year?
Team being lead in 5v5 results by Gio, Malgin and Robertson???
I get all the anger, and the blame game at the moment... mad at Dubas for the Marner contract... I mean he's been an excellent player for us until this year... and now we get mental lapses, not shooting. Out of Matthews, his shot is terrible and he looks sluggish. It's not Dubas or Keefe's fault that these guys have showed up this year, and aren't ready to play, or have checked out...
Tavares and Rielly have become giant liabilities so far this year....
Sure, coaches and GM's get fired when teams don't meet expectations, and this group certainly isn't meeting expectations... but this is a player problem, far more than a coach or GM problem. None of us are in the room to know what's going on, to understand why Matthews and Marner aren't prepared for this season, and seem mentally checked out at times.
Strange times.
Punch Drunk Loov
Thought Viktor Loov was going to be a guy
- Dec 6, 2011
- 5,647
- 4,065
I'd be fine if Mitch made a mistake on ice and then showed passion and snapped a stick.
I think he might've been mad because Keefe yelled at him. I'm so tired of it.
I think he might've been mad because Keefe yelled at him. I'm so tired of it.
These guys have been told by everyone for years now that the only thing that matters is the playoffs. Who cares that they had 115 points last season, the only thing that matters is success in May!
I'm utterly unsurprised that they just don't care in the fall any more. They've been told over and over and over again that the fall doesn't matter. They're professionals and blah blah blah, but the thing is narratives matter. Narratives really, really matter when it comes to motivating humans. Guys like Malgin and Robertson have something to play for. Gio is a veteran and knows what's expected of him. The core are doing exactly what they have been told to do.
The narrative has poisoned the team. These guys don't have anything to prove right now, so they do the bare minimum. We count on them to have killer instinct so that they disregard the narrative, but these guys have none of that.
Fogelhund
Registered User
- Sep 15, 2007
- 24,349
- 29,462
I see that at times too... I don't know whats wrong... he was shooting last year... and was successful. He isn't shooting the same way this year, it's pretty much deferral and pass to Matty... In some ways, if he was trying to do too much offensively, he'd be forcing shots, which isn't what is happening. Both of them, the confidence in their game seems a bit shot.
Maybe your right, it's too much pressure, it's gotten to him, and he's kind of cracked under that pressure???
To me, neither of these guys seems ready to play.
Larcos_Unal
Registered Nurse
This team needs a player like Darcy Tucker, someone who can will them into the fight. Sadly an agitator who can actually play the game and pop in 20-25 goals is pretty tough to come by, especially when your GM does not believe in physical contact.
BallardEra
Leafs&Caps Since 1982™
2021 record after first 10 games:
5-4-1 with 25 GF and 29 GA
2022 record after first 10 games:
4-4-2 with 27 GF and 30 GA.
Last season they went 8-2-0 in their next 10 game stretch.
5-4-1 with 25 GF and 29 GA
2022 record after first 10 games:
4-4-2 with 27 GF and 30 GA.
Last season they went 8-2-0 in their next 10 game stretch.
GoonieFace
Registered User
And they probably will again this year, does it really matter though? But you can keep hoping that this steaming pile Dubas has assembled can actually win when it matters
The Management
Registered User
We're having a comparable start to Colorado to Tampa, if that makes anyone feel any better. Though, they just came off a run to the finals and should understandably look a little sluggish out of the gate, whereas you would think Toronto would look hungry after another disappointing first round exit. Few teams, other than Vegas and Boston, are separating themselves from the pack.
I do wonder if some of these guys came into the season adequately prepared. Marner has had these moments before, including last year (though I'm not sure he's ever looked this frustrated). If Matthews finishes on a few more of those whiffed scoring chances, we're probably up a couple more points and his winger is notching a scattered primary or secondary assist. I don't know what's up, but they do look completely sluggish against some pretty bad teams.
I'm not hitting the panic button yet, but it's obvious there are some problems.
I do wonder if some of these guys came into the season adequately prepared. Marner has had these moments before, including last year (though I'm not sure he's ever looked this frustrated). If Matthews finishes on a few more of those whiffed scoring chances, we're probably up a couple more points and his winger is notching a scattered primary or secondary assist. I don't know what's up, but they do look completely sluggish against some pretty bad teams.
I'm not hitting the panic button yet, but it's obvious there are some problems.
ACC1224
Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
- Aug 19, 2002
- 78,312
- 45,519
I don’t recall who they played in the 2021 stretch but this stretch really couldn’t have been any easier matchup wise.
Agreed, I said it before, Marner needs to stop worrying about getting Matthews going and start thinking about how to get himself playing better.
I think the organization has set him up for some failure here. Why is it after every loss they keep trotting him out there for media availability? Do you ever see Matthews have to answer questions after losses? Never, it’s actually absurd.
Marner is and always has been the shield for Matthews. It’s created additional pressure for Marner because he is the one that has to answer for the teams short falls. You can see that pressure is now mounting and affecting his on ice production. I really feel the organization has created a situation where Marner has to take a majority of the criticism to protect their prized asset.
I feel bad for Marner in a way, but honestly these guys are adults and have to be better simply put. But one of these days I’d like to see Matthews come out and defend his buddy to the media and show some solidarity.
BallardEra
Leafs&Caps Since 1982™
ULF_55
Moderator
To be fair, Dubas didn't draft Matthews or marner or Nylander or Rielly.
What is the highest pick he's had 15th.? And that looks like it is a good pick but cancer doesn't care.
And while he's traded some 1st. rounders, the teams he's had has never had a top 10 pick.
So much of the core pile was already in the system.
His work on goaltending has been suspect, even Campbell was a back-up who they made into a starter who's being outplayed today in Edmonton by a 23 year.
Some of the depth players people here were clambering for, and now they look like minor leaguers. How can one look reasonable on a Cup winner and like a minor leaguer on Toronto just weeks later?
Tavares is all Dubas, and I think the reception was divided, sure he's a (was) a first line center, but weren't they missing a top defender? Without Tavares, the suspension player could have been 2nd. line center when he was in the line-up. Heck, they could have groomed Nylander for that role. Tavares changed that direction.
Unless Nylander was suffering some ailment last night, his ice time was screwy, especially when the culprit still received his normal ice time, after missing a shift or two for unacceptable play. Did the players decide to quiet bench Nylander, Robertson and Malgin, so that Matthews playing mate still got all his ice time? Did the players decide a couple shifts was enough wake-up call? Did the players decide Kral shouldn't get another shift after making a mistake?
They will send Kral back down to shake up the roster.
HoweHullOrr
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2013
- 12,041
- 2,513
No one has forced Dubas/Shanny to spend to the cap ceiling. Some teams even have success without spending to the cap ceiling. No one forced the management team to abandon the rebuild prematurely. No one has forced Dubas/Shanny to distribute the salary the way that they have. Yes, things happen. I mentioned that not that long ago the Canadian dollar was 65 cents versus the U.S. So, ya things happen outside of a pandemic, so no need to play dumb and pretend.
You say "no one is making excuses". But, you just made some, and there's plenty here to look at on any given day. That's a repetitive pattern and hardly anything new. Thanks for coming out though.
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Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 83,096
- 62,016
The core is to blame but behind that, the core is only here because of Kyle Dubas’ decisions and they kept getting pulled into the same game environments where they aren’t likely to succeed.
I just look at a GM who comes up with these self serving ideas that certain aspects of physicality are going out the door. Then he sees his star players get used and abused by physical teams. And his only response is to go back to Simmonds and Clifford whom he tried to throw on the scrap heap.
This is just utter incompetence. You send your key guys into battle without support and protection and bullied time again because you didn’t make preparations. It’s just so asinine when you think about it.
The core is to blame but Dubas has never meaningfully protected them with the right supporting cast.
I just look at a GM who comes up with these self serving ideas that certain aspects of physicality are going out the door. Then he sees his star players get used and abused by physical teams. And his only response is to go back to Simmonds and Clifford whom he tried to throw on the scrap heap.
This is just utter incompetence. You send your key guys into battle without support and protection and bullied time again because you didn’t make preparations. It’s just so asinine when you think about it.
The core is to blame but Dubas has never meaningfully protected them with the right supporting cast.
A core can learn and grow but sometimes you need to bring in the right vets who can help the boys in the locker room grow and learn how to lead.
The Oilers core couldn’t lead shit and Holland went out and kept Smith and got Keith cause of the leadership they brought. They weren’t the best players and the moves were mostly laughed at but last year in the playoffs you saw what their experience in rough situations that they overcame pushed.
Hockey can be a weird one. Doesn’t matter if your team is the best player wise, personalities and composition matters too.
Something in the locker room is wrong with the leafs core and it doesn’t seem like anything has been done to address it. Don’t know what the answer is but that needs to be the focus.
Larcos_Unal
Registered Nurse
That'll send Shambles a stern message
stickty111
Registered User
- Jan 23, 2017
- 27,260
- 34,233
If Keefe needs to worry about a player getting upset over a benching, Marner is a bigger problem than we all admit. There are some maturity issues. Grow up Mitch. He waa also the only player who had an issue with Keefe's elite player comment
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yubbers
Grown Menzez
- May 1, 2013
- 37,352
- 6,664
ANd proceeded to not get it done in the playoffs for the 6th straight year.
Or can we only use good past history?
I don't go off on stats .. and I don't believe you can see what is going on watching TV .. in stands what I see is Matty and JT getting destroyed .. they can't get up and down ice fast enough to keep up .. we are losing battle of C ice every game .. only last game in Anaheim I saw some hope that Matty might be getting a bit quicker (but I will wait to Wednesday to confirm) .. most games Mitch is too far up ice and is playing by himself (but he is trying except for last game) .. as Matty gets game fit and his stamina improves all da stats will come back fine .. and Mitch stats will get better as Matty starts moving faster .. Mitch could never do much on his own ever .. he is a complimentary type player .. Matty does not need anyone else .. he can create with pretty much anyone he plays with when in game shape
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 83,096
- 62,016
Sounds silly, but you didn’t see the GM spending any time adding protection for the core group. If they get pushed around, I don’t see them bringing in a Zack Kassian to give the team a very different look. You don’t think Matthews would have a different swagger with a thug to back him up in a tough matchup? You think guys like Ben Chariot would rag doll him with the nuclear threat? But no, Dubas has to prove a point and send his high price talent into battle with no backup. It’s on Dubas.
Sometimes you gotta learn to stick up for yourself a bit too. Draisaitl has taken big hits or dirty hits his whole career but learned to reverse check and stick up for himself a bit. But you need a guy to help you learn that a bit too. Oilers don’t have a bunch but Kane and Nurse are both tough sob who aren’t afraid to be a little dirty but can also play. You need a bit of that in the lineup. Unfortunate you guys had that in Kadri and he was moved away, but I get why he was moved.
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 83,096
- 62,016
1000% with you on Draisaitl and his mean streak. Same with Mackinnon. But it’s up to the GM to see what kind of support his big dog needs to be at his best. Not run some agenda about what he thinks hockey is becoming and then building some pile of garbage support cast that is not fit for purpose.
