The core players are showing their true colors again

[SoVi3t]

Because that would be mean and might hurt someone’s feelings. We need to helicopter parent these “men” in their mid-20’s in order to shield them from this cruel world.

I mean, Mitchy did say he was a big boy now. He should be able to handle it. Maybe the view from the press box would help him see what he SHOULD be bringing to the team.

 

[SoVi3t]

Listen. I hate to be the one who brings this up. Cause it can be seen as a lazy excuse. But you honestly have to consider the market itself. It shouldn't be an excuse. But you look at everyone brought in year after year, whether it was a change to the core players or a change to the support pieces.

Nothing has worked. There's always been the same recurring problems. Is it truly the work of every single player drafted, signed or traded for happens to be wrong/crap/has no heart? Is that actually possible? A broken clock is right twice a day. But this team, it's never right.

I'm not going to say it, but I'm going to say it. Swap Mack and Rantanen for Matthews and Marner, Mack and Rantanen have issues here and Matthews and Marner win a Cup in Colorado. 100%.

This is a market where the team is and will be beloved no matter what. You come in and play well for half a season, you are king. On a pedestal. And it can easily go to one's head. But the flip side is, as fast as you become king here, you can be dethroned even faster. And that likely messes with the players. Going from beloved to hated so quickly, to the point where they don't know how to deal with the pressure, criticism and scrutiny after being seen as a God/celebrity or whatever.

A lot of other teams we see win, they are 4th in their market. Players can't get too high because the market is focused on another team, but can't get too low, cause the market is focused on another team.

The Raptors futility pre-Kawhi sucked and was criticized. But in the end, was it really? The Jays blowing it versus Seattle was terrible and is the talk right now. But in year from now, it will be brought up less than the David Ayers game.

Why? These are big and important teams in their market, but they will always be able to hide behind the Leafs. Like other NHL teams are able to do in their markets.

So how do we fix this? Stop paying attention? Change the mindset so that the team becomes 3rd fiddle and can operate in quieter manner? I don't know the answer. But having this coach over that coach, having this dinosaur over that nerd, having this tough player over this wimp, etc... None of that will change anything here, it's been proven this millennium. This, is unfortunately bigger than the core, or the coach, or the GM or the President. You have to at least consider that before thinking Lou + Trotz + Tkachuk over Dubas + Keefe + Nylander would make any difference.

I have trouble blaming the market/culture here, for why nobody showed up for any of the games during this west coast road trip.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I believe that was the start of it all. Totally abandoned the rebuild and started trading away draft picks for rentals because they mistakenly thought they were closer than they actually were.

well when Matthews, Marner and Nylander join the lineup and we get to the playoffs every year since it kinda forces your hand. we should have prob developed our players longer but getting Muzzin was a good move for the time atleast.
we just couldnt continue to rebuild while making the playoffs every year. players ended the rebuild

 

[GoonieFace]

I think we need to defer this thread to Cyndi Lauper for her analysis

 

[Ianturnedbull]

If this era is slowly coming to an end I feel I have to give a couple of parting shots:

There's been a very cultish thing for Dubas since he was first hired. I think partly due to the popularity of "Moneyball".

Dubas fans found a way to exercise sanctimonious behavior by exercising their knowledge of possession statistics.

Dubas fans were likely picked on or beat up in high school.

Dubas found unwavering support by some fans because those fans felt deep down that you could build a team like EA Sports NHL stacking top lines with 3 gunslingers.



Just making a joke. I have nothing grounded to support my claims.

 

[Captain Crunch]

well when Matthews, Marner and Nylander join the lineup and we get to the playoffs every year since it kinda forces your hand. we should have prob developed our players longer but getting Muzzin was a good move for the time atleast.
we just couldnt continue to rebuild while making the playoffs every year. players ended the rebuild

That may be, but signing JT to the amount they gave him, when Matthews is going to be your number 1 center, and then backing up the Brinks truck for Matthews (granted, he was going to get paid but Dubas got taken to the cleaners on term) and Marner

well when Matthews, Marner and Nylander join the lineup and we get to the playoffs every year since it kinda forces your hand. we should have prob developed our players longer but getting Muzzin was a good move for the time atleast.
we just couldnt continue to rebuild while making the playoffs every year. players ended the rebuild

Shortbterm, I suppose. We got 2 or so good years out of Muzzin. The last few years he’s become injury prone, meanwhile Moore, Grundstrom, and Durzi (sorry, I can’t remember if all 3 were involved in that trade) have been coming into their own.
To me, after that series against Washington, management needed to take it a little more slowly. Like you mentioned, we should have developed our players awhile longer.

 

[ChadBigly]

Realistically, why can't we bench a couple core players? Why can't we tell Mitch he isn't showing up for games, and we need him to watch from the press box for awhile, so that he remembers how to hockey?

Let me just ask him if that's okay....

He said "no" guys, there's nothing I can do.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

That may be, but signing JT to the amount they gave him, when Matthews is going to be your number 1 center, and then backing up the Brinks truck for Matthews (granted, he was going to get paid but Dubas got taken to the cleaners on term) and Marner

Shortbterm, I suppose. We got 2 or so good years out of Muzzin. The last few years he’s become injury prone, meanwhile Moore, Grundstrom, and Durzi (sorry, I can’t remember if all 3 were involved in that trade) have been coming into their own.
To me, after that series against Washington, management needed to take it a little more slowly. Like you mentioned, we should have developed our players awhile longer.

yeah unfortunately thats how most of those trades end up. at the time it was a great move but it aged poorly. our 5 year window really kinda stayed the same for our Dmen. we 100% needed someone to help our lineup though. really is on the players GM tried to make the team better and they failed usually in the 3rd of an elimination game.

 

[Cournoyer12]

Normally, I don't love Matthews trade talks, but for that haul? I would do it.

Perhaps the threat of playing in a FIELDHOUSE the next 4 years might motivate him!

 

[The Legend]

Nothing is guaranteed except for taxes and death. What level is spent on salaries is a conscious choice not some kind of fait accompli. Things happen - that's life. It could be a pandemic, it could be currency conversion (difference between Canadian & U.S. dollar) which has happened in the past. It could be other things. The problem is that people don't learn from history and have very short memories.

But, more importantly, how the cap dollars are distributed is completely independent of the theory that the cap will supposedly & predictably keep rising in an unabated fashion. That is within the control of the management group and is not connected to cap increases. How to distribute the cap dollars is a conscious decision that is made by management.

Seems like some people are committed to a culture of making excuses. The truth is hard. The lemmings run for the fallacy, folly & the cover of excuses.

Yes of course what is spent on salaries is a conscious choice. What isn't a conscious choice is the budget you have to spend it - that's based on something called the Salary Cap.

I'm not sure what history you wanted the team to learn from. The Spanish Flu?

No one's making excuses. On record that Marner is the wrong guy to give $10m/$11m to. On record that Dubas was nowhere close to aggressive enough. On record that Dubas was wrong to give into the grit police instead of sticking to skill.

 

[Stephen]

I mean, Mitchy did say he was a big boy now. He should be able to handle it. Maybe the view from the press box would help him see what he SHOULD be bringing to the team.

The Ducks game meltdown by Marner kind of tells you all you need to know. Defensive lapse leads to a goal. Benching results in a tantrum, which results in more slop play. This guy cannot deal with adversity in a positive way. It has to be daycare for him to be productive. Everyone else is struggling too, but this guy cannot keep it together.

 

[SoVi3t]

The Ducks game meltdown by Marner kind of tells you all you need to know. Defensive lapse leads to a goal. Benching results in a tantrum, which results in more slop play. This guy cannot deal with adversity in a positive way. It has to be daycare for him to be productive. Everyone else is struggling too, but this guy cannot keep it together.

Press box is too good for Mitch. He has to go. We need a change of culture in Toronto, for players to realize it's not a free ride. Dump him and his absurd contract for somebody capable of growing a playoff beard.

 

[BackPassChampions]

The Ducks game meltdown by Marner kind of tells you all you need to know. Defensive lapse leads to a goal. Benching results in a tantrum, which results in more slop play. This guy cannot deal with adversity in a positive way. It has to be daycare for him to be productive. Everyone else is struggling too, but this guy cannot keep it together.

Ship him outa here. I've seen enough.

 

[Cory Kennedy]

Honest take, I'd say do a complete revamp of the team, bring in some tough gritty players who can set the tone come playoff time, enough is enough.

This is arguably the most skilled leaf's team of all time far more skilled then the mid 90s-early 2000s teams. Yet those squads won rounds because they had the true passion to do it.

Combine skill with grit and you will get the Leaf's will find their formula for that long expected run.

 

[stickty111]

Honest take, I'd say do a complete revamp of the team, bring in some tough gritty players who can set the tone come playoff time, enough is enough.

This is arguably the most skilled leaf's team of all time far more skilled then the mid 90s-early 2000s teams. Yet those squads won rounds because they had the true passion to do it.

Combine skill with grit and you will get the Leaf's will find their formula for that long expected run.

We did that in 2013. How did that go?

 

[Leafshater67]

I wonder what they’d get for a return on Mitch “grown man” Marner. He’s a thin skinned diva with a big contract that disappears when it matters.

 

[Cory Kennedy]

We did that in 2013. How did that go?

Can't really make that comparison, that teams best player was Phil Kessel and they only arguably made the playoffs from the Lockout, yet their grit almost gave them the win.

If this current team had that same drive then they would probably go on those deep cup runs that Sportsnet analysts predict them to every year.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

well when Matthews, Marner and Nylander join the lineup and we get to the playoffs every year since it kinda forces your hand. we should have prob developed our players longer but getting Muzzin was a good move for the time atleast.
we just couldnt continue to rebuild while making the playoffs every year. players ended the rebuild

One year after we were told to "prepare for pain", our team with 7 rookies in key roles snuck into the playoffs on the last game of the year and looked like they didn't belong against Washington.

But it was still enough for mlse.

"Playoffs" meant the rebuild was over. We needed at least one more year to complete the rebuild. But no.

That rookie teenage team sneaking into the playoffs sealed our fate.

 

[Menzinger]

The Ducks game meltdown by Marner kind of tells you all you need to know. Defensive lapse leads to a goal. Benching results in a tantrum, which results in more slop play. This guy cannot deal with adversity in a positive way. It has to be daycare for him to be productive. Everyone else is struggling too, but this guy cannot keep it together.

Of all the core, I think he's definitely the one that deals with pressure the worst.

 

[mapleleaf979]

Something is going on in the room. This group of players are not tight knit in any way.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

One year after we were told to "prepare for pain", our team with 7 rookies in key roles snuck into the playoffs on the last game of the year and looked like they didn't belong against Washington.

But it was still enough for mlse.

"Playoffs" meant the rebuild was over. We needed at least one more year to complete the rebuild. But no.

That rookie teenage team sneaking into the playoffs sealed our fate.

what do u mean didnt belong? did majority of those games not go to OT? it was fairly close even though we lost in 6. they looked really good against them and had a extremely bright light after that series.
the players would have gotten them into the playoffs the next year even if they tried to continue the rebuild. at that point it was a retool at best. would have not gotten any top picks either so just waiting to develop your prospects. they needed to upgrade

 

[snipes29]

From Reddit, the Leafs this season out of 484 minutes of playtime, have only held the lead for 67 minutes. They've trailed for 155 minutes.

But but hes built a good team lmfao

The coach and GM have very little clue to what they’re doing.

Totally agree

 

[snipes29]

I wonder what they’d get for a return on Mitch “grown man” Marner. He’s a thin skinned diva with a big contract that disappears when it matters.

Problem is hes not the only one! Besides Kyles built a good team??? There are many many issues with this team it all starts at the top

 

[LeafGrief]

Teams go where their leaders take them. Marner wears a letter, is paid more than the entire supporting cast on any given night, and is a superstar level player. He is one of the most important voices on the team, and he will always be leading through his actions, whatever they are.

When he was young and dumb, fresh faced and wide eyed, it didn't really matter that he was a diva. The team had other leadership structures and he was the young pup who was going to blossom into a legend. But now that he's 25 and has been the 2nd most important player on the team for years, the team follows his and Matthews' leads. It really is no coincidence that the two big guns are looking like shit, so the team is looking like shit. We sold off our heart and soul players and bet it all on Marner to be the heart of the team.

I'm at the point where I think a Nylander trade wouldn't even shake the team up enough. This is Marner's team and I just don't believe that Marner can handle being a Leaf. It means too much to him, he has too much pressure on himself. But worst of all, he never really seems all that hungry for success anyways.

 

[francis246]

Teams go where their leaders take them. Marner wears a letter, is paid more than the entire supporting cast on any given night, and is a superstar level player. He is one of the most important voices on the team, and he will always be leading through his actions, whatever they are.

When he was young and dumb, fresh faced and wide eyed, it didn't really matter that he was a diva. The team had other leadership structures and he was the young pup who was going to blossom into a legend. But now that he's 25 and has been the 2nd most important player on the team for years, the team follows his and Matthews' leads. It really is no coincidence that the two big guns are looking like shit, so the team is looking like shit. We sold off our heart and soul players and bet it all on Marner to be the heart of the team.

I'm at the point where I think a Nylander trade wouldn't even shake the team up enough. This is Marner's team and I just don't believe that Marner can handle being a Leaf. It means too much to him, he has too much pressure on himself. But worst of all, he never really seems all that hungry for success anyways.

I agreed with your post up until the last line. I think the major is issue is the Marner cares TOO much. He wants to succeed so bad as a leaf that it’s causing issues. It’s not translating into good plays, it’s translating into doing too much and putting his team in bad situations. He’s putting way too much pressure on himself to be the hometown guy that leads the team to the cup. The same thing happened when he was in London and he had to step away before coming back and just getting his head straight.

I think Marner is the one guy that you can’t really question how bad he wants to win as a Maple Leaf. He loves the leafs but I think ultimately it’s not the right fit for him here. It’s just always going to be too much pressure and expectation for him to live up to. He’s probably the guy we have to move in the off season.