The Core Has To Go

[thewave]

Head-to-head, any hockey person takes Marner over Nylander 10x out of 10 imho. That said, there is an argument to be made that once the playoffs come (especially the last two years) that Nylander finds a way to elevate his game, score big goals, and look better when it matters most. And it's not just Marner, it's Matthews too. Does that mean Nylander is a better player than either of them? Of course not. But considering Matthews is likely going to demand to make double Nylander's salary is comical.

An honest conversation can not be had with them until they acknowledge this is a cap league.

A cap league suggests that the team that gets the most bang for the buck wins more often than not.

We have 3 of 7 of the top paid players and have not had PO success.

Marner has never had a series where it was on the line and he comes up big.

Nylander makes practically half the money of the big 3 but gives 90% of the performance currently.


They always spin every argument almost as though they are Marners agents creating a narrative and reason for them to be paid more. Honest discussion is dead in the water when facts are ignored and they are facts.

 

[thewave]

If he plays in all zones, which he does, he's a 200 foot player.

He could easily have played center if given the opportunity.

You think that Marner could play C and not Nylander? Marner gets pushed off the puck the moment someone leans towards him. I don't think you're going to find many Marner for C supporters around here, not in a playoff ready to go and win sense.

Can he even take a faceoff? lol I don't even think they get him to do that.

 

[Trapper]

You think that Marner could play C and not Nylander? Marner gets pushed off the puck the moment someone leans towards him. I don't think you're going to find many Marner for C supporters around here, not in a playoff ready to go and win sense.

Can he even take a faceoff? lol I don't even think they get him to do that.

I’d put Marner on D before I’d put him at C.
Let him control the whole game from there. He would need a gritty partner though.

 

[thewave]

I’d put Marner on D before I’d put him at C.
Let him control the whole game from there. He would need a gritty partner though.

Lets be honest either of those positions would be disaster lol. He could get leaned on at the dot and break a forearm. Way too risky Trapper. Going back for the puck he would probably just always let the opposition blow by him and try and stick check it back

 

[Trapper]

Lets be honest either of those positions would be disaster lol. He could get leaned on at the dot and break a forearm. Way too risky Trapper. Going back for the puck he would probably just always let the opposition blow by him and try and stick check it back

I guess there is a reason he only eats right wings and tapes his fork.

 

[geo25]

The soft label is backed by nothing other anecdotal speculation. Not so for your idol Nylander. There is nothing redeeming about a player who doesn't hit at all, never blocks and only achieves more goals because he shoots at net significantly more even with a lower conversion percentage. Marners play setups is not stat padding. He is involved in more goals than most people in the league. Nylander on the other hand will accept the work of others as evidenced through actions like blown zones and shoot whether there is a look or not.
He almost never finishes a check.
Marner is a glue playmaker. Nylander is a playmaker's vampire. There is a reason why there is a discrepancy in minutes, deployment and yes...even salary.

When I was a kid, I really wanted a bicycle.

So I prayed to God every day for one. Then I realized that's not how God works. So I beat someone up and stole his.

Asked for God's forgiveness after.

That's the problem with this core. They do too much praying to win. Not enough bullying and stealing of games.

They've become the laughing stock of the NHL as a result.

It's gotten to the point everybody's waiting for them to fail. So we can all laugh at them again. Always aiming to please their fans, the Leafs continue to do exactly that.

Fail.

If human beings are the most intelligent living creatures in the universe, then God aimed low. Our species is so wretched that praying for others to fail has become a sport in and of itself. Then thanking God after that it wasn't us He shafted.

So long as it's somebody else's bicycle that got stolen.

Lol...excellent points & well articulated!

 

[geo25]

It's backed by him ditching the puck constantly when under pressure. To the point he sent a suicide pass to our real Star player.

Nylander was blocking some shots btw. He did hit the deck on some hits, of course Nylander is not the perfect power forward (lol) but he gets the zone. That's what he does best, gets the zone when you need it.

Great so glad Marner is involved in so many goals, it helps to play with possibly the best scorer, Adam Oates ring a bell?

I will take 8.8m Nylander for 8 years over whatever Marner is going to ask, 13m? 500k less than whatever Matthews asks? No thanks.

He is not at all glue, the guy cries in the box and whines like a baby in the media. No it's ok, that's not glue, Gary Roberts was glue, the cement truck to which you build a foundation upon. Sundin was a Glue guy, Dougie, Clark not this kid. No way.

Agreed. Trev has some tough decisions to make....if he even has the autonomy to do so?

 

[BayStBullies]

The path forward is clear. The Maple Leafs are the focus, not any individual. If you want to cripple the team to eat too large a piece of the pie; your priorities are in turn clear to the Maple Leafs. Godspeed, we will find somewhere else for you to eat your personal pie. 4 large slices and crumbs to the rest... isn't how it gets done.

 

[geo25]

They should have started shopping him already. Winnipeg needs a new face of their franchise.

So true...

 

[notDatsyuk]

To be brutally honest, if we're relying on the eye test, the biggest disappointments for us annually in the playoffs have been:

1A. Matthews
1B. Marner
.
2. Tavares
3. Nylander
.
4. Rielly

I'm not even getting into Keefe yet because that's a whole different discussion. When you have 5 "superstars" making the money these guys are making, they need to find a way to win -- I don't care if they have you or me behind the bench.

Tack the salaries on beside the names and it looks even worse.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Marner dishes suicide passes now? Do you have any clue what those are?
And yeah...pretty sure I know who hall of famer Adam Oates is. A career 1480 pt player was a stat padder now?
And the reality is that you would even take Nylander at par. Who are you trying to kid?

He didn't say Nylander over Marner at par - he said Nylander at 8.8 over Marner at 13 (roughly the same ratio as now).

Without going into stuff like ice time and linemates, yes, Marner produces more in the regular season, but not in the playoffs. At par, it's a pretty close call.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I wonder how Nylander would look if he was the opponents primary focus like Matthews and Marner are?

Florida pretty much neutralized him by virtually ignoring his linemates and putting two or even three guys on him as soon as he had the puck.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I see what you're saying and agree but only partially. I do feel like marners game translates the least to the playoffs.

Err.. well, maybe tavares since he can't keep up at all.

That being said, I when we watch other teams and they're snapping one timers off of every seeing eye pass, it's clear that we're missing that element. One of the reasons that the perfection line in Boston was so good in the regular season is that guys find each other and they fire one timers all over the place. We have none of that and we'd be well served to focus on that in skills practices.

Regular lines would help.

 

[geo25]

An honest conversation can not be had with them until they acknowledge this is a cap league.

A cap league suggests that the team that gets the most bang for the buck wins more often than not.

We have 3 of 7 of the top paid players and have not had PO success.

Marner has never had a series where it was on the line and he comes up big.

Nylander makes practically half the money of the big 3 but gives 90% of the performance currently.


They always spin every argument almost as though they are Marners agents creating a narrative and reason for them to be paid more. Honest discussion is dead in the water when facts are ignored and they are facts.

Yeah, dont let facts get in the way of truth....this core ALL needs to go. Shame Shanny & his BS SHANAPLAN weren't scrapped long ago. Another snake oil salesman who now prefers opera & theater to hockey....flies up in the company jet for appearances sake then heads back for home.... What a joke of a franchise....

 

[justashadowof]

Ok also, around 10% of his goals are empty netters.

Ok I had to look this stuff up. Marner has scored 14 career EN goals, Nylander has scored 7 career EN goals. That's 2 EN goals person for Marner and 1 EN goal per season for Nylander. Literally 1 EN goal per season more for Marner. Career Shoot% adjusted by removing EN goals: Marner 11.67%, Nylander 11.85%.

Though in two seasons Tavares 11 mil cap is freed up. The core 4 will become the core three without a trade happening. Tavares only sticks around on a Gio level deal or a hair more

So in Matthews' 10th year in the league this will be fixed.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Florida pretty much neutralized him by virtually ignoring his linemates and putting two or even three guys on him as soon as he had the puck.

It's been done every year in the playoffs

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Of the core 4 I probably have the most affinity to Nylander (if I'm Nylander I'm pissed I get lumped in with guys making almost twice my salary), but I watched the last Vegas Florida game just to see what's up and I've realized this core is just straight not made for the playoffs. Seriously none of them are true "playoff performers" Matthews doesn't have a second "world class player" gear he can tap into. Marner.... He's just not that guy in the playoffs, dumb mistakes, kinda gives me lil b**** vibes. JT is past his prime and ineffective most shifts, also no second gear, no drive, no playoff warrior in him. Nylander has 0 nastiness to his game and leaves a ton to be desired on defense. Nylander should be finishing his hits aka Matthews given he's a big strong man, but you see maybe one decent hit every series.

When your playoff leaders are these guys you're going nowhere fast. Six years of playoff woes and this is the learnings they have to show for it? If Matthews doesn't sign at a reasonable price I think you have to start looking at a major retool at minimum and full on rebuild as a worst case scenario.

I would honestly bet that if we did a full rebuild under a good GM that we would be winning more than 1rd in the next 7yrs. I know having an elite 1C is important...but it seems other teams get by with non-elite 1C's and do rather well. Could it be they have money to build a better supporting cast? That's what I think is the case.

 

[notDatsyuk]

You think that Marner could play C and not Nylander? Marner gets pushed off the puck the moment someone leans towards him. I don't think you're going to find many Marner for C supporters around here, not in a playoff ready to go and win sense.

Can he even take a faceoff? lol I don't even think they get him to do that.

Last five seasons, 100+ games 100+ faceoffs taken, top six winning %:

Tavares 56.9
Spezza 54.5
Gauthier 54.2
Matthews 53.7
Nylander 52.4
Kampf 52.2

Worth noting that if the original player is kicked out, the replacement has to be more careful, as a second violation means a penalty. Willy is the only non-centre.

Marner 43.8 in only 64 tries.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Nylander was a minus 3 Maner a plus 7 wining his minutes in the playoffs.

Not that difficult tp see or understand

Again, scoring garbage goals in a playoff loss and win and PP1 time, might help account for his plus rating. Not that difficult to understand.

 

[ACC1224]

Again, scoring garbage goals in a playoff loss and win and PP1 time, might help account for his plus rating. Not that difficult to understand.

How does 'PP1 time' help his plus rating?

 

[Notsince67]

Again, scoring garbage goals in a playoff loss and win and PP1 time, might help account for his plus rating. Not that difficult to understand.

Its difficult to understand why people think PP are part of +/-. It's not exactly a new thing.

 

[myleafs]

So much talk about how much Matthews and Nylander’s next contract will cost. Word is that Matthews will be looking for around $14M per year and only for a 3-5 year term. That’s ridiculous!

Nylander is expected to be looking for 9M+ in his. I’m sorry, but this is going to cripple the Leafs. Trying to build a team around soft players making absurd money is not going to work…. Period!

7th, 8th, 9th times a charm, am I right?

 

[Clark4Ever]

So much talk about how much Matthews and Nylander’s next contract will cost. Word is that Matthews will be looking for around $14M per year and only for a 3-5 year term. That’s ridiculous!

Nylander is expected to be looking for 9M+ in his. I’m sorry, but this is going to cripple the Leafs. Trying to build a team around soft players making absurd money is not going to work…. Period!

Nylander is in the ballpark based on comparables. Matthews is definitely not.

 

[myleafs]

Whats boggling is ....why cant ownership & mgmt see it? Or, they do & dont care. I wish they felt the financial impact of their crap team's performance more...possibly then they'd get off the elitist, high horse stance & remember they once had a winning tradition.

I think the problem might be that the leafs make the playoffs every year after years of not making them so they would rather make the playoffs and lose then take the chance of moving players and not making them. Not a great long term strategy.

You want to bitch about grit, you take out the worse forwards for hits and blocks. Fortunately for us, it is the same guy and his name is WN...your idol.
Are you even remotely aware of this team and game? You crap on players far more gritty than Willy for lack of grit. The irony is rich because the whole team is grittier than Willy.

To be fair thats not a very high bar no matter how you slice it

If that is determined to be accurate they should move marner at the draft.

Leafs can't be paying a 30 goal scorer over $12mm.

And if Matthews stays around the 40 goal mark for 14-15 milly.....we are in big trouble

 

[myleafs]

Not sure. I just hope they play hard ball with these guys, although, I know they won't.

Im getting the feeling they back up the brinks truck for Matthews but not for Marner or Nylander

I am not going to lie. A big part of me was really hoping Tkachuk would have absolutely filled him at the end of that game 4.

And the rest of the team would have looked the other way

They can’t play hardball this time. The players are pending UFAs with full NMCs. The team has zero leverage this time around. Pay them what they want or they go to market.

yay...so the same cap hell for another 5-7 years. My excitement is overflowing......