The Core Has To Go

[NVious]

Matthews is worse than that for what he fid in the playoffs

Lol Matthews has 3 points less than Marner, but 12 more goals, they both are flops for what they're getting paid.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

They have people calling them greedy worthless peices of poo in the streets millions of people posting and tweeting about them. The pressure and stress is off the charts compared to other players in less crazy cities and compared to normal people it's not even imaginable.

A new Paul Marner sawkpuppet account?

 

[GoonieFace]

How many trades like this actually result in a team getting better immediately? Or even breaking even?

It’s a rebuilding move. And a lot of people don’t have any interest in that.

Nothing rebuilding about it. You can trade these guys and get good players back. Whether it’s a 1 for 1 or multiple pieces. Such fear here, for players that have accomplished so little

 

[57 Years No Cup]

We are in a bind and it all started with the Tavares contract, which completely falls on Shanahan and Dubas. That was their moment in time to set the tone for how the organization was going to operate from a commitment standpoint.

Tavares insisted he only left the Islanders so he could come home and live out his dream of playing with the Leafs. But he did so at the expense of signing the 2nd largest cap hit in the NHL at the time behind McDavid. This was a massive fail by Shanny and Dubas considering...

The following summer Nikita Kucherov (coming off an Art Ross winning 128 point season) signed a long-term, team-friendly extension at 9.5 million per in order to keep the Bolts core in place. Yzerman was quoted as saying, "From a team's perspective, it helps us going forward knowing the (NHL salary) cap numbers of the players, knowing the commitment we have to make other decisions accordingly." This was in complete contrast to the way the Leafs brass handled their business with Tavares.

The Leafs, loaded with their own homegrown talent pool similar to the Lightning, decided to make a huge splash in free agency before taking care of their own soldiers. When Shanahan and Dubas gave Tavares the 2nd largest cap hit in the NHL and stitched the C on his chest, the precedent was set.

Shanahan immediately followed the Tavares signing with his infamous, "Our players are going to have to take less to play for the Toronto Maple Leafs" quote and agents across the league LOL'd. What followed was nothing short of a cap disaster, including a lost game of chicken with Nylander, a moderate-to-high overpayment of Marner, and a complete submission to Matthews in both cap hit and term.

And it all started with paying John Tavares an $11 million cap hit when they could have made him a fair but firm "do you really wanna come home and be a part of this budding team" offer of a $9.5 million annual deal, which was exactly what a more talented and proven Kucherov agreed to a year later. In fact, all of the Bolts historically took less to keep the core together -- Hedman, Stamkos, Kucherov, Vasilevskiy, and Point. The Leafs had their chance to set the tone and they failed miserably.

If Tavares declines, so what? That means he was more interested in a severe overpayment from San Jose or Long Island and not truly motivated by living out his dream of playing in Toronto. Or, even worse, he has no backbone and was unwilling to tell his agent, "Get it done with the Leafs" the way Kevin Shattenkirk did a year later when he took a lot less as a UFA to sign with the Rangers.

If Tavares agrees to a $9.5 cap hit, it immediately sets the tone for the young Leafs to follow his lead, which likely equals $6.25 for Nylander, $9.25 for Marner, and $10 mil for Matthews (on a longer term). That also means the Leafs have an extra $5+ million a year in cap space to upgrade the core with more adequate depth to compete for a Cup. Most importantly, it establishes a winning culture in Toronto like it did in Tampa and Colorado, where everyone was willing to take a bit less for the betterment of the team. Instead, Shanny and Dubas unlocked the vault, opened it for Tavares, and the young stars lined up to get their cuts. To our chagrin, they handed Matthews the keys to the getaway car.

Now we're stuck. Shanny and Dubas made their bed and Dubas was jettisoned before the house collapses. This is now all on Shanahan. The only way this can end well is if Matthews resets the culture and leaves a ton of cap and term on the table with his next contract so the core can remain with money left over for improvements. Then Nylander and Marner must follow his lead. If not, we're just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic until the next rebuild is upon us.

Unfortunately, at this point, Shanny needs to handle Matthews the same way he handled Dubas -- no more pampering, no more caving, no more conceding. If Auston truly wants to remain a Leaf he needs to show it. If he demands $14 or $15+ mil a year to stay instead of $12.75 or $13 (and being the highest cap hit in the NHL) then his priorities are not aligned with winning a Cup, period. And if so, the Leafs need to make some very tough but honest decisions about him and any other player who isn't willing to right the ship.

This core has been given everything they have asked for and then some. They've been spoiled financially, in the room, off the ice, in the media, and by the fans. It's time they do their part.

 

[thewave]

Lol Matthews has 3 points less than Marner, but 12 more goals, they both are flops for what they're getting paid.

At any other point in time Goals are basically counter 2:1 v Assists. Since Dubas came in and only in Toronto are they equal and justification for giving like contracts to playmakers like Marner.

Nice stuff right?

 

[notDatsyuk]

This would be the ultimate unforgivable sin and anyone in a position of power who lets this happen should be banished from the Leafs forever. Be it Shanny, the new GM, the board, or all of the above. This would (should) result in a revolt by the fans and media 10x worse than the Ballard years.

If Matthews walks as a UFA that is entirely on Dubas. The way the contract is set up, all Matty has to do is say he will re-sign after July 1, then not do it, play out the last year, and leave.

In an odd way, that would be entirely fitting, as that's how we got Tavares 'for free'. Maybe JT showed Matty the way.

 

[notDatsyuk]

In before the cap should have gone up but COVID screwed up the cap comments.

Does Marner take less to stay in Toronto?

Covid and the cap are just an excuse.

If the cap had gone up $10M after the 20-21 season it would have made that contract a bit less crippling, but it would still have been a very bad contract.

$11M was bad, 7 years was stupid, and a full NMC was asinine.

 

[thewave]

If Matthews walks as a UFA that is entirely on Dubas. The way the contract is set up, all Matty has to do is say he will re-sign after July 1, then not do it, play out the last year, and leave.

In an odd way, that would be entirely fitting, as that's how we got Tavares 'for free'. Maybe JT showed Matty the way.

Correct so he would have to have a pre signed contract in place.

 

[notDatsyuk]

You know what's even crazier? I remember reading on Sportsnet about how the whole JT signing went down. They didn't talk money before he told them he was coming. That was a stipulation of JT's for some reason because he wanted to go to a team with a vision he believed in. They basically offered him $10M the night he said yes and he countered saying too low. So they boosted it to $11M and it was done. That's it...no back and forth for a day or two...nothing.

So, I really don't believe for even a second that SJ offered him $13-14M and he turned it down to come here. How could they have offered it when JT said he never wanted to talk numbers? I think it was the Leafs who put that out there to make $11M seem like a steal and that he left money on the table elsewhere to come home.

The same with the Islanders - if you know JT is going to sign with Toronto, you can say with impunity that you offered him $13M and 8 years.

You know he won't take it (even if you really offered it), and it makes you look good to your fans.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Kind of like what Lou said to Stamkos when he came for boost of talking to Toronto. Lou apparently offered him the same deal TB did and Steven was insulted. Maybe Lou knew he would never leave TB and was just using the threat of coming here to boost his money in TB....nobody knows for sure...but either way..a budget is a budget.

Senile Lou was a lot smarter than Rookie Kyle.

 

[Stephen]

Blogspam nonsense.

And thank god. Jones is a decent offensive defenseman with an outsized reputation because he’s big. That contract is awful.

Jones would be excellent in Toronto. Imagine he was out there 22-25 minutes a night doing what Justin Holl was pretending to do. I think his Columbus days were more reflective of his abilities than being on tire fire Chicago.

That said, a Nylander for Jones type deal wouldn’t be a comfortable trade one for one.

 

[Stephen]

You know what's even crazier? I remember reading on Sportsnet about how the whole JT signing went down. They didn't talk money before he told them he was coming. That was a stipulation of JT's for some reason because he wanted to go to a team with a vision he believed in. They basically offered him $10M the night he said yes and he countered saying too low. So they boosted it to $11M and it was done. That's it...no back and forth for a day or two...nothing.

So, I really don't believe for even a second that SJ offered him $13-14M and he turned it down to come here. How could they have offered it when JT said he never wanted to talk numbers? I think it was the Leafs who put that out there to make $11M seem like a steal and that he left money on the table elsewhere to come home.

I tend to agree that the $13-14 million San Jose offer was largely a PR driven talking point to sell the hometown “discount” angle. Too lazy to check the Sharks cap situation that year but I doubt they would have been able to fit that in with any kind of cap.

Same reason why I think it’s in Matthews interest to sign July 1. Get the bag and tell Leafs Nation how committed you are, signing day one to use as a smoke screen for whatever team unfriendly conditions would otherwise piss fans off.

 

[notDatsyuk]

You keep proving you know nothing.

Marner leads the team in playoff points since he became a leaf.

Marner lead the team in playoffs points again this year.
Marner was our best forward in plus minus with a plus 7.

Your boy Nylander was our worse forward in plus minus with a - 3.

And Willy leads at even strength, especially if you consider his lower ice time, and even more if you look at their respective centers.

 

[socko]

I tend to agree that the $13-14 million San Jose offer was largely a PR driven talking point to sell the hometown “discount” angle. Too lazy to check the Sharks cap situation that year but I doubt they would have been able to fit that in with any kind of cap.

Same reason why I think it’s in Matthews interest to sign July 1. Get the bag and tell Leafs Nation how committed you are, signing day one to use as a smoke screen for whatever team unfriendly conditions would otherwise piss fans off.

They signed Karlsson for $11.5 a year later. I'm not saying I think the rumor is true but they probably could have come up with $13 if they sniffed enough glue.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Lou offered JT the same contract we did, I think he even went up to 11.5 last minute. Where did the principle go?

Lou had the advantage of knowing that no matter what he offered, Tavares was going to Toronto. All he had to do was pretend to offer more to keep the Isles fans happy with him.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Feels like a missed opportunity to trade Marner for either Eichel or Tkachuk. Now we have the disgruntled star (I am reading into words he's saying to the media I'm sure he prefers to stay so it is not quite the same).

It's become so stale. I really liked Dubas and was really upset we fired him. However; sounds like he didn't even do his job, aka, at least listen to calls to see what other teams would offer for Mitch. Too stubborn and loyal and now we're the ones with no leverage.

 

[keonsbitterness]

How many trades like this actually result in a team getting better immediately? Or even breaking even?

It’s a rebuilding move. And a lot of people don’t have any interest in that.

Most important, Shanahan seems to have no interest in a rebuild.

 

[ACC1224]

Lou had the advantage of knowing that no matter what he offered, Tavares was going to Toronto. All he had to do was pretend to offer more to keep the Isles fans happy with him.

Some things shouldn't need to be explained.

 

[Superstar]

Feels like a missed opportunity to trade Marner for either Eichel or Tkachuk. Now we have the disgruntled star (I am reading into words he's saying to the media I'm sure he prefers to stay so it is not quite the same).

It's become so stale. I really liked Dubas and was really upset we fired him. However; sounds like he didn't even do his job, aka, at least listen to calls to see what other teams would offer for Mitch. Too stubborn and loyal and now we're the ones with no leverage.

He finally realized his folly in his last presser when he said "everything is on the table"...it was a rude awaken for him...he even brought up the Matthew Tkachuk trade...he probably died a little seeing Marner's amazing drop pass at his own blueline in game 2 against the Panthers resulting in the GWG for Florida...and then was a no show in game 3...Marner for Eichel was another missed opportunity...Matthews and Eichel down the middle would have been amazing...Eichel could even play on Matthews' wing.

 

[notdoneyet]

Are you literally standing up for an 11 million dollar player who isn't even going ppg in rounds where we lose 4-1? What do you get out of defending these guys?

In 50 games he has 47 points and 10 goals, he's not even pacing for ppg, never mind even 20 goals lmfao. Is that worth 11 million?

All 3 of them are the problem tbh, it's just that unlike the other two at least Nylander's cap hit isn't insane, but I'm not opposed to trading him or Matthews if that's what you think I'm getting at.

The wave is this your other account

Nylander will demand 10 million on his next contract
Is his numbers in this year’s playoffs worth that

-4 with 3 hits lol yes he is worth his contract at 6.9
But thats changing pretty quickly

Rangers paid panarin 11 million for 2 points in this playoffs

You can have a wet dream that marner is traded but thats all it is

Nylander will go before mitch. Sorry if that burst your bubble

 

[NVious]

The wave is this your other account

Nylander will demand 10 million on his next contract
Is his numbers in this year’s playoffs worth that

-4 with 3 hits lol yes he is worth his contract at 6.9
But thats changing pretty quickly

Rangers paid panarin 11 million for 2 points in this playoffs

You can have a wet dream that marner is traded but thats all it is

Nylander will go before mitch. Sorry if that burst your bubble

Sure thing Paul, why are you caping for a guy who has scored 10 goals in his nearly 10 year playoff career that is making 11+ million dollars? He is just as bad as the other two.

And good comparison to Panarin, because other people are overpaid and suck we have to keep our overpaid sucky stars lmfao.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Sure thing Paul, why are you caping for a guy who has scored 10 goals in his nearly 10 year playoff career that is making 11+ million dollars? He is just as bad as the other two.

And good comparison to Panarin, because other people are overpaid and suck we have to keep our overpaid sucky stars lmfao.

I disagree. He's just as bad as Matthews, but still much better than Tavares.

 

[NVious]

I disagree. He's just as bad as Matthews, but still much better than Tavares.

He has 3 more points in 5 less games in the playoffs.

I'd def trade JT as he is def starting to show his age, but NTM be damned.

That said, Marner hasn't accomplished anything in the playoffs either. Ok he has more points, 10 goals and a barely 20 goal pace in the playoffs is not cutting it as an 11+ million dollar player who will soon demand yet another raise.

 

[Antropovsky]

(its his contract)

I'm going to argue that even if he played to a 9 million dollar player level in the playoff we'd be satisfied. Problem is he looks a 6-7 million dollar winger in the playoffs.

All his goals were 50' shots where the goalie was screened...he doesn't have the skills or possibly the heart to get shots from any closer. In fact I read a Stat that Marner was 10% lower than the next leaf forward in slot shots.

He went over 100 games without a pp goal, he went 18 playoff games without a goal. He scores around 30 goals a year but also he scores more goals than expected. So 30 is being generous.

"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck"

Marner scored 26 goals and 94 points in 82 (1.14 p/pg) on a line with Hyman and 27 year old Tavares. And a pp with Matthews/Tavares on it.

Matthews scores 37 goals and 73 points in 63 gp (1.07) with Kapanen, Johnsson and Marleau being his primary linemates. In hindsight its evident that kapanen and Johnsson are significantly worse linemates than Hyman and prime Tavares. The distance between these two players should be significantly larger than it is. Matthews was just screwed with his linemates in his contract year. While Marner was given a golden ticket.

If 61 goal 113 point Pastrnak gets 11.25. Matthews might get 12 million.

Marner shouldn't break 9.5 million... but we all know he will test free agency before he admits to not being in the top 5 paid.

Once his NMC we are dead in the water. Trade him now to give us depth on D. Re-sign Nylander.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Some good individual players and assets
Could get some real good draft picks
Start over
See you in 6 years