The Core Has To Go

[hockeywiz542]

O’Neill on whether Leafs' Core Four should return: There’s no question that I’d shake it up - TSN.ca

OverDrive's Jeff O’Neill joins Leafs Lunch to discuss the Leafs’ ongoing search for a new GM. O’Neill shares his thoughts on why the Leafs are facing pressure to name their new GM in short order, which under-the-radar candidates might be a good fit for the Leafs’ open role and more.

 

[andora]

Feels like a missed opportunity to trade Marner for either Eichel or Tkachuk. Now we have the disgruntled star (I am reading into words he's saying to the media I'm sure he prefers to stay so it is not quite the same).

It's become so stale. I really liked Dubas and was really upset we fired him. However; sounds like he didn't even do his job, aka, at least listen to calls to see what other teams would offer for Mitch. Too stubborn and loyal and now we're the ones with no leverage.

Yes.. the word is stale. This team is so stale

 

[darrylsittler27]

Matthews, a guy that has cracked 85+ points once, the guy that isn’t a PPG player in the playoffs for Bedard ? Lol

No way Chicago does that but a team like Anaheim could make it interesting.

Matthews, a guy that has cracked 85+ points once, the guy that isn’t a PPG player in the playoffs for Bedard ? Lol

No way Chicago does that but a team like Anaheim could make it interesting.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Pmatthees is alright jot but not game changer

 

[SOLR]

And Willy leads at even strength, especially if you consider his lower ice time, and even more if you look at their respective centers.

The problem isn't Marner or Willy, it's Matthews. Never been a big fan - great scorer but he doesn't have the speed to dominate the top Ds during the playoffs.

 

[Budz]

I would say to Matthews pretty simply, you can sign a reasonable and fair deal and likely retire our franchises best player, or go down as one of the most hated Leafs of all time - if he stiffs this fan base.

You think NY was rough on JT. Just wait to see how this fan base will roast him for eternity.

 

[notDatsyuk]

He has 3 more points in 5 less games in the playoffs.

I'd def trade JT as he is def starting to show his age, but NTM be damned.

That said, Marner hasn't accomplished anything in the playoffs either. Ok he has more points, 10 goals and a barely 20 goal pace in the playoffs is not cutting it as an 11+ million dollar player who will soon demand yet another raise.

Who has 3 more points in 5 fewer games? More points than who? What time frame are you using? Sorry, I couldn't come up with those numbers.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The problem isn't Marner or Willy, it's Matthews. Never been a big fan - great scorer but he doesn't have the speed to dominate the top Ds during the playoffs.

If you're talking about a scorer without speed, it's Tavares much more than Matthews. He's even more the problem than any of the other three, and that's without even considering his contract, or its implications on theirs.

 

[SOLR]

If you're talking about a scorer without speed, it's Tavares much more than Matthews. He's even more the problem than any of the other three, and that's without even considering his contract, or its implications on theirs.

Of course, I'm ignoring Tavares because he's untradable. Gotta work with what we have.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Of course, I'm ignoring Tavares because he's untradable. Gotta work with what we have.

You're right, but the conversation was more about worst player of the four, not worst of the tradable ones.

I think Willy is the one most worth keeping, but also the one who would likely get the best return.

Matty I'd keep over Mitch, mainly because he plays centre, plus he's the 'franchise' player, and he'd be harder to trade with the bigger cap and shorter remaining term.

 

[SOLR]

You're right, but the conversation was more about worst player of the four, not worst of the tradable ones.

I think Willy is the one most worth keeping, but also the one who would likely get the best return.

Matty I'd keep over Mitch, mainly because he plays centre, plus he's the 'franchise' player, and he'd be harder to trade with the bigger cap and shorter remaining term.

Matthews is the bigger return and easiest to trade because he's a centre. There are also a number of teams sitting on draft assets + A-quality centre prospects. Arizona with Cooley and 2 first rounder in the top 12. San Jose with pick 4 and Bystedt. Etc.

If you could get Cooley + Leonard (6th overall) + PLD (trade with 12th overall) + X for Matthews do you really say no? Granted you'd have to wait 1-2 years to contend again, but there would be another window soon.

 

[rumman]

Most important, Shanahan seems to have no interest in a rebuild.

Wouldn’t it be a nice surprise if Shanahan hired a new GM AND President, falls on his sword and solves all the Leaf s problems from Ownership down……….

 

[geo25]

O’Neill on whether Leafs' Core Four should return: There’s no question that I’d shake it up - TSN.ca

OverDrive's Jeff O’Neill joins Leafs Lunch to discuss the Leafs’ ongoing search for a new GM. O’Neill shares his thoughts on why the Leafs are facing pressure to name their new GM in short order, which under-the-radar candidates might be a good fit for the Leafs’ open role and more.

Why cant all the media parasites be as honest & open as ODog? So much intrigue & drama....TML are a laughing stock....a very rich one that everyone wants to feed off and not upset the apple cart. Just fire Shanahan the Politician BS artist & bring in a proven winner.....

 

[Hockeysawks]

Matthews is the bigger return and easiest to trade because he's a centre. There are also a number of teams sitting on draft assets + A-quality centre prospects. Arizona with Cooley and 2 first rounder in the top 12. San Jose with pick 4 and Bystedt. Etc.

If you could get Cooley + Leonard (6th overall) + PLD (trade with 12th overall) + X for Matthews do you really say no? Granted you'd have to wait 1-2 years to contend again, but there would be another window soon.

Arizona's GM was talking about the Sens sucking and building with draft picks showed how badly they want to build a proper winning team and was hinting thats his plan. They won't be making that type of deal.

 

[Captain Crunch]

You keep proving you know nothing.

Marner leads the team in playoff points since he became a leaf.

Marner lead the team in playoffs points again this year.
Marner was our best forward in plus minus with a plus 7.

Your boy Nylander was our worse forward in plus minus with a - 3.

Both of them avoid physical contact at all costs! When it's crunch time neither have been able to help get this team over the hump. Marner will get us more in a trade as well as freeing up more cap space, plus I really believe he gets his way, much more so than Nylander. I really hope he is traded!

 

[Captain Crunch]

Marner 3 points vs florida
Nylander 3 points vs florida
Matthews 2 points vs florida(no goals for our best goal scorer)
Tavares 1 point vs florida

Yep marner was the problem

While I agree we can't blame it all on Marner, the fact is, he is part of the problem. If you're being totally honest with yourself, he is overpaid. Both Matthews and Marner took Dubas and Shanny to the cleaners when they got the contracts and terms that they got. Trading either one would give us a pretty good return. If I have to choose between keeping a center or a winger, I'm choosing the center (unless of course his contract demands are too high, then he's the one I would trade). And I wouldn't hesitate to trade both of them if neither of them agree to team friendly deals (and I know management would never do this, hell, they probably won't trade any of them, and to me, that would be a disaster)!

 

[ShaneFalco]

Using +- to justify MM playoff performance?
Getting 24 minutes (nylander averaged 18) and first PP - he should have more points than anyone else

 

[Eye Test]

You're right, but the conversation was more about worst player of the four, not worst of the tradable ones.

I think Willy is the one most worth keeping, but also the one who would likely get the best return.

Matty I'd keep over Mitch, mainly because he plays centre, plus he's the 'franchise' player, and he'd be harder to trade with the bigger cap and shorter remaining term.

There’s no point even mentioning Tavares.

If Willy wants 10+ trade him. If he willl sign a fair deal then trade marner

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Wouldn’t it be a nice surprise if Shanahan hired a new GM AND President, falls on his sword and solves all the Leaf s problems from Ownership down……….

Unless it's the ownership giving the direction to keep the core 4, Keefe, (formerly Dubas, until his failed PP), and the corporate PC NuHockey.

 

[NVious]

While I agree we can't blame it all on Marner, the fact is, he is part of the problem. If you're being totally honest with yourself, he is overpaid. Both Matthews and Marner took Dubas and Shanny to the cleaners when they got the contracts and terms that they got. Trading either one would give us a pretty good return. If I have to choose between keeping a center or a winger, I'm choosing the center (unless of course his contract demands are too high, then he's the one I would trade). And I wouldn't hesitate to trade both of them if neither of them agree to team friendly deals (and I know management would never do this, hell, they probably won't trade any of them, and to me, that would be a disaster)!

Exactly, personally I'm of the opinion you put all 3 on the market, ofc ask JT to waive his trade clause and be prepared to eat 50% for two years and see what is available.

We don't need to trade all 3 or 4 even (if JT waives somehow), but for sure some GM will overpay for at least one of the 3.

I don't think it makes much diff which one we keep tbh, they all have different strengths and weaknesses, we don't need to trade all 3 barring an overpayment for all 3, but if we get equal or especially greater value, we gotta pull the trigger

 

[Dog]

I would look into trading Matthews because if we get player back who is less than half salary and pick(s)/prospect(s) then won't have to worry about salary cap. Keep Tavares and hope guy you get can play C and can put up 70 pts at least. Goalies depend on Samsonov if wants to return and Woll just worked his way as backup.

 

[SOLR]

Arizona's GM was talking about the Sens sucking and building with draft picks showed how badly they want to build a proper winning team and was hinting thats his plan. They won't be making that type of deal.

When franchise players become available things can change quickly.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Exactly, personally I'm of the opinion you put all 3 on the market, ofc ask JT to waive his trade clause and be prepared to eat 50% for two years and see what is available.

We don't need to trade all 3 or 4 even (if JT waives somehow), but for sure some GM will overpay for at least one of the 3.

I don't think it makes much diff which one we keep tbh, they all have different strengths and weaknesses, we don't need to trade all 3 barring an overpayment for all 3, but if we get equal or especially greater value, we gotta pull the trigger

Agreed, and again, assuming whoever stays will agree to a much more agreeable contract and term.

 

[Boxscore]

If you could get Cooley + Leonard (6th overall) + PLD (trade with 12th overall) + X for Matthews do you really say no? Granted you'd have to wait 1-2 years to contend again, but there would be another window soon.

If the Leafs are only trading Matthews they will likely pursue a lateral-ish hockey trade (i.e., Auston Matthews for Elias Petterson, etc.) However, if the Leafs were to trade Matthews for futures, this would be the first fallen domino that leads to a complete rebuild that must include Marner and Nylander as well, as wasting two years of them would be horrific asset management.

 

[SOLR]

If the Leafs are only trading Matthews they will likely pursue a lateral-ish hockey trade (i.e., Auston Matthews for Elias Petterson, etc.) However, if the Leafs were to trade Matthews for futures, this would be the first fallen domino that leads to a complete rebuild that must include Marner and Nylander as well, as wasting two years of them would be horrific asset management.

Not if you open up another good window 1 year from now. Marner and Nylander are still improving, if you start just surrounding them with talent, it might not even take 1 year. And then you have a bunch of entry-level contracts to keep opening some cap flexibility to add (they have to, in order to transition out of the Tavares situation)

My proposal is lateral enough, it gets both future and PLD as a "good enough" replacement for Matthews. Getting Petterson would get you far fewer assets and cap flexibility for little added benefits.

<== 2x core over 11m, 2x8 million players, but you are up 2 top 6 players on entry level
Tavares - PLD - Willy
Knies - Cooley - Marner
Leonard - X - X

Is vastly superior to this:
Tavares - Pettersson - Willy
Knies - X - Marner

You can't make a lateral move for Matthews, because the problem is the cap, not Matthews the player himself. There is no point in trading Matthews without creating cap flexibility, and entry-level contracts that can play in the top 6 are the solution (rare, so you need to be intentional about it)

In 1994, the Nordiques traded Mats Sundin from their core to the Leafs, they were back in contention in 1995, and won the cup a year after. They did this by keeping Sakic, shifting Sundin into Forsberg (entry level). They were hyper-salary limited, that's why they moved to Colorado. It's a similar situation.