The Core Has To Go

[seventieslord]

Feel like Jason Spezza is the more obvious comparison. Maybe a little bit better than Spezza. FO specialist, PP guy, can still provide offense in a bottom 6 until he is almost 40. Not like Spezza was a premier skater at any point either.

If he goes as long as Spezza, he'd have another 5 years in him after his contract expires... And most of those would likely come at a number that is far below the value he brings to the ice.

You're right, Tavares could probably crush 4th line minutes till he's 38 like Spezza did. I think he's more than a little bit better, for what it's worth.

He's probably got one more contract left where he's overpaid, though, before he turns into a year by year $1M guy. Just guessing of course.

 

[seventieslord]

Hypothetically we move JT out and then what?
Who do we fill his spot with? More overpaid UFA signings?

Keep JT, let him take a massive hometown discount after these next 2 years.

Remove JT and some bargain basement defenseman and goalie who make $1M each, and you've got room for a $5M 2nd line center, a $4M defenseman and. $4M goalie, just to provide one of countless possible ways to spend it. You can't seriously think that wouldn't make a big difference in the lineup if spent correctly.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

Remove JT and some bargain basement defenseman and goalie who make $1M each, and you've got room for a $5M 2nd line center, a $4M defenseman and. $4M goalie, just to provide one of countless possible ways to spend it. You can't seriously think that wouldn't make a big difference in the lineup if spent correctly.

Yeah that’s nice in theory, but who?
Free agent signings?

Would love to see everyone’s reaction if we managed to move JT and brought in 2nd line C Monahan and replacement D John Klingberg instead.

Ride out the JT contract, he’s a PPG C still. Give me JT + Schenn over Monahan/ROR + Klingberg/Dumba any day. All of which will get much longer contracts than 2 years.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Tavares’ money isn’t the problem it’s that his game doesn’t work with anyone we have. When we got him I hoped the game plan was to use him like NYI did and find cheap Parenteau and Moulsons to run as a second first line. If you get a high end 2nd line it doesn’t matter if the money is split up 2-11-2 or 5-5-5. You run into problems when you’re paying your 2nd line 3.5-11–10.7 and they’re not getting anything done at ES.

 

[thusk]

Who cares if Willie is the worst forward or played better than the other three. They all didn’t perform and didn’t do anything.
Arguing over who is the worst forward is the same as arguing who sucked the least.
I am not saying pressure won’t get to players and stuff but that’s why the top guys need to lead and perform. If you can’t handle the pressure then you can’t be the Man that the team rely on when needed.
AM, MM, JT and Willie are all great players, maybe even HOFs but so far none of them had shown that they can be the MJ for the team and all are showing they are just Pippen or Rodman.
Taken from the late Kobe, when he was asked about pressure, he said he practiced a million times on shots and prepare mentally for game situation. When game situation happens, he won’t feel pressure anymore. Can’t see how our guys can’t have that mentality.

1- you cant compare basketball to hockey

2- we can watch all 4 team alive we will see the same team

When Tkachuk didn't looked great vs toronto, did someone else did? Barkov and reinhart line did

When sebastion Aho didn't carried canes offensive, did someone else step up? Kotkaniemi and necas line did

When hintz didn't carried stars offensive, did someone else did? Seguin and Benn line did it

When eichel wasn't as much productive, did someone else step up? Stone line and karlsson line step up

When matthews and marner didnt carried leafs offensive? Who did it?

 

[Warden of the North]

Ya I'm on board. Blow it to hell. Scorched earth. Should get a nice package of assets. Maybe once Mitch, Willy, Matthews, and Rielly are gone JT will reconsider.

 

[Pi]

I’m 100% down for that if Matthews wants to be a baby and not sign because his friend is no longer GM.

The core players have been babied since they have been drafted and they have given nothing back.

Get great assets back for Matthews and Marner, keep Nylander because he actually gives a f*** and doesn’t get pissy because his coach has some criticism.

1- you cant compare basketball to hockey

2- we can watch all 4 team alive we will see the same team

When Tkachuk didn't looked great vs toronto, did someone else did? Barkov and reinhart line did

When sebastion Aho didn't carried canes offensive, did someone else step up? Kotkaniemi and necas line did

When hintz didn't carried stars offensive, did someone else did? Seguin and Benn line did it

When eichel wasn't as much productive, did someone else step up? Stone line and karlsson line step up

When matthews and marner didnt carried leafs offensive? Who did it?

Nylander stepped up and got goals against Tampa last year, Montreal the year before and against Florida as well.

The issue is that Matthews and Marner have never really shown up for big games and all they can do is laugh when someone roughs them up instead of fighting back.

They remind me a lot of the Sedin’s. If they had just punched the f*** out of Marchand instead of just standing and taking it, they might have won.

Also, you can’t take the team to the cleaners and take every penny possible and then cry that you don’t have depth scoring when you don’t show up.

 

[Budz]

This will probably be a long post.
This is what a I would do, but understand few would likely agree.

To me, this all starts and ends with JT not Matthews when charting the course for the Leafs.

I ask JT to provide 6 teams he would go to. If he declines are we can’t move him - I blow it all up and make sure he knows how crappy it will be.

He can be Tank Commander Captain for 2 years where we collect picks and trade for youth and a clean cap. This contact (JT) will ruin any hope of doing anything for the next 2 years.

Gone:
Matthews, Willy and Marner, I also ask Rielly to waive.

Play all the kids and get top 5 picks.

Buy short term bad contracts for picks/ players.

Build talent (through the trades) and take a run at McDavid in FA.

Now - If JT agrees to be traded:

I believe we can do a mini-rebuild with Matthews and Nylander staying. Trade Marner for Dman. Use JT cap dollars to get a 2C.

New management hopefully brings a culture change going to a more playoff style team and roster.

I can’t see winning anything with 91 and the value loss of that contract.

 

[thusk]

I’m 100% down for that if Matthews wants to be a baby and not sign because his friend is no longer GM.

The core players have been babied since they have been drafted and they have given nothing back.

Get great assets back for Matthews and Marner, keep Nylander because he actually gives a f*** and doesn’t get pissy because his coach has some criticism.



Nylander stepped up and got goals against Tampa last year, Montreal the year before and against Florida as well.

The issue is that Matthews and Marner have never really shown up for big games and all they can do is laugh when someone roughs them up instead of fighting back.

They remind me a lot of the Sedin’s. If they had just punched the f*** out of Marchand instead of just standing and taking it, they might have won.

Also, you can’t take the team to the cleaners and take every penny possible and then cry that you don’t have depth scoring when you don’t show up.

Vs tampa

Matthews
1st 2 gm 2 assist game
Last 4 he scored on every leafs game and was biggeet reason why leafs came back gm 4

Marner got pts in 5 of 6 gm this season 11 pts vs tampa and great defensivly


Last year matthews got offensive production in every game except game 3, 4 goal, 5 assists , Marner 8pts in 7 and together they shutdown one of most dangerous offensive line of entire NHL most of the time at 5v5

Yes im agree its was not the same against florida

Ps 2 of 3 nylandr goal last year came in 7-3 lost when leafs trailed 5-0 in third... but yes he wqs great 2 of 7 leafs game last year

 

[ToneDog]

Vs tampa

Matthews
1st 2 gm 2 assist game
Last 4 he scored on every leafs game and was biggeet reason why leafs came back gm 4

Marner got pts in 5 of 6 gm this season 11 pts vs tampa and great defensivly


Last year matthews got offensive production in every game except game 3, 4 goal, 5 assists , Marner 8pts in 7 and together they shutdown one of most dangerous offensive line of entire NHL most of the time at 5v5

Yes im agree its was not the same against florida

Against Florida they failed more miserably than they did in previous years. The main reason they got all those points against Tampa was because Vasi was garbage, Hedman was less than 100% and Cernak only played 11 minutes. These guys have proven over and over that they can't get it done against teams that have good D and decent goaltending.

 

[Peace Frog]

So Willy isn’t playing in the WC, but Lily is? Hmmmm….. that’s interesting! You have to assume that was a Leafs decision, so you have to wonder if Willy could be one of the guys getting moved.

 

[facelessjoe1990]

We should trade the big 3. Matthews and 28th to Anaheim for 2oa , Drew Helleson, Comtois, Max Jones, 2024 1st top 5 protected. Marner to Columbus for 3oa and David Jiricek and Kent Johnson/ Sillinger. Nylander to Minnesota for their 1st and Ryan O' Rourke and one of their forwards to even out there cap.

 

[rumman]

I think the money is certainly a part of it but not the whole story. I think it has more to do with the cozy, pillowy, spoiled culture that Dubas, and ultimately Shanahan, created.

1. Pursuing Tavares as a UFA and giving him the 2nd highest cap hit in the NHL at the time behind McDavid.

2. Nuking old school, no-nonsense winners like Lou and Babcock.

3. Caving in a game of chicken vs. Nylander.

4. Overpaying Marner.

5. Completely cowering to Matthews and giving him a blank check and not even pushing back on his demands of a short-term deal.

6. Playoff failure after failure with zero accountability.

7. Laxing on the team dress code because the players were concerned with having to dress up.

Up until Friday, the Leafs were running a country club and Dubas, Matthews, and Marner were the honorary members. They were the kids staying out past curfew and failing classes and the parents never held them accountable.

Honestly, I think after Dubas made his bratty power play, Shanahan finally had enough and said no more. Hopefully this is a wakeup call and others in the organization start stepping up, mainly Matthews and Marner.

Matthews has been spoiled and babied since day one and we're seeing the results. For crying out loud, Kypreos was saying that Matthews no longer wanted Bunting on his line because he was sick of getting into scrums and dust ups after the whistle due to him. Not a good look for a 6-3, 215 pound man child.

34 is your biggest bargaining chip, if his ask is unreasonable and there’s a good trade you move him asap. First solves half 5he cap tied up to 4 players, wake up call to 88 and 11 that trips to the woodshed are over, and establishes that the lunatics aren’t running the asylum any longer……..

Agreed. Getting rid of Tavares will likely be 10x harder than getting rid of Ballard... and he owned the team lol.

Has Leaf Nation not learned it’s lesson getting rid of Marleau? JT is what he is, ride it out and move forward……..

 

[rumman]

So Willy isn’t playing in the WC, but Lily is? Hmmmm….. that’s interesting! You have to assume that was a Leafs decision, so you have to wonder if Willy could be one of the guys getting moved.

I hope every trade scenario is on the table for every player, if it makes the team better fire away…….

 

[thusk]

Against Florida they failed more miserably than they did in previous years. The main reason they got all those points against Tampa was because Vasi was garbage, Hedman was less than 100% and Cernak only played 11 minutes. These guys have proven over and over that they can't get it done against teams that have good D and decent goaltending.

So when they didn't scored they was trash, if they scored its only because opponent goalie was trash...last season cernak and hedman was healthy, Vasilevskiy finished playoff at 0,922%

Do you ever heard Tkachuk was good inplayoff because ulmark/ Swayman was trash and bergeron/ krecji was injured?

 

[glue]

If the leafs don’t sign Matthews by July1st then he needs to be traded. We absolutely cannot risk him just walking. But the setup of this situation just sucks given even Marner has a NMC kicking in July 1st, so to me even decisions on Marner ideally have to be done by July 1st. Such an annoying situation. We need someone with balls to make a bold move here. Fact is this group is not getting it done, a bit of a culture reset needs to happen as well- results need to be the thing that talks, these guys have been given ample opportunity

 

[ToneDog]

So when they didn't scored they was trash, if they scored its only because opponent goalie was trash...last season cernak and hedman was healthy, Vasilevskiy finished playoff at 0,922%

Do you ever heard Tkachuk was good inplayoff because ulmark/ Swayman was trash and bergeron/ krecji was injured?

Did you watch the Tampa/Leafs series ?? Go back and watch games 2,3, and 4 and tell me how good Vasi was. Hedman missed most of game #1 and #2. Cernak missed all but 11 minutes of the series. Vasi was bad and playing behind a thin defense. Our guys took advantage.

Riddle me this, what other goalie have the Leafs lit up in 7 playoff runs ??

Ullmark was trash in the later half of the Bruins/Panthers series. May have been hurt. Tkachuk just scored 2 OT goals out of the 5 total goals the Panthers scored against a solid Canes' team in round #3. When the chips are down, I'll take MT over any current Leaf.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Did you watch the Tampa/Leafs series ?? Go back and watch games 2,3, and 4 and tell me how good Vasi was. Hedman missed most of game #1 and #2. Cernak missed all but 11 minutes of the series. Vasi was bad and playing behind a thin defense. Our guys took advantage.

Riddle me this, what other goalie have the Leafs lit up in 7 playoff runs ??

Ullmark was trash in the later half of the Bruins/Panthers series. May have been hurt. Tkachuk just scored 2 OT goals out of the 5 total goals the Panthers scored against a solid Canes' team in round #3. When the chips are down, I'll take MT over any current Leaf.

They get goalied every year because few go to the net.

I hope every trade scenario is on the table for every player, if it makes the team better fire away…….

And why it wasn't at least looked at previously is ridiculous

 

[ToneDog]

If the leafs don’t sign Matthews by July1st then he needs to be traded. We absolutely cannot risk him just walking. But the setup of this situation just sucks given even Marner has a NMC kicking in July 1st, so to me even decisions on Marner ideally have to be done by July 1st. Such an annoying situation. We need someone with balls to make a bold move here. Fact is this group is not getting it done, a bit of a culture reset needs to happen as well- results need to be the thing that talks, these guys have been given ample opportunity

40 days until July 1st. If they are not close, start shopping him. I'm guessing they will get it done easily the same way they did the last time. Willie has a 10 team NMC so he can be more easily traded post July 1st so things are not as bleak if they chose to keep Marner.

 

[ULF_55]

Look at the entire history of the double digits in the NHL.

We aren't talking one or two iterations.

They have no history of stepping up.

marner, Matthews and Tavares aren't 22 year old kids, they are veterans.

There should be a gap between the double digits and the reasonably priced supporting cast. There isn't.

Leafs can't afford to be wasting cap space on those 3 players.

 

[Gabriel426]

1- you cant compare basketball to hockey

2- we can watch all 4 team alive we will see the same team

When Tkachuk didn't looked great vs toronto, did someone else did? Barkov and reinhart line did

When sebastion Aho didn't carried canes offensive, did someone else step up? Kotkaniemi and necas line did

When hintz didn't carried stars offensive, did someone else did? Seguin and Benn line did it

When eichel wasn't as much productive, did someone else step up? Stone line and karlsson line step up

When matthews and marner didnt carried leafs offensive? Who did it?

Kampf and Lafferty did.
ROR and Kerfoot did.
Bunting and Knies did.
Woll did.

Honestly, what are you trying to say, that AM, MM, JT and Willie are good and it is the support that didn’t show up or they are being out goalied. Our top and most expensive guys didn’t show up while other teams guys did.

Let’s not pretend we were shutout for four games.
If AM, MM, JT and Willie can score just two more goals in the Panthers series, we would most likely still be playing right now.

I really don’t know what games you are watching but the remaining four teams are playing in a higher intensity level than what the boys showed against the Panthers. If the boys maintained the same level they had against TB, they would be up 2-0 against the Canes.

You can’t show up for one series and completely disappeared in the next one. Then expect to advance to the next round.

Give it a rest. The top guys didn’t show up when it matters again. Right now they are trending toward being really good role player on a Cup Winning team instead the top dogs on a team.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Feel like Jason Spezza is the more obvious comparison. Maybe a little bit better than Spezza. FO specialist, PP guy, can still provide offense in a bottom 6 until he is almost 40. Not like Spezza was a premier skater at any point either.

If he goes as long as Spezza, he'd have another 5 years in him after his contract expires... And most of those would likely come at a number that is far below the value he brings to the ice.

The leafs could re-sign Tavares but it’s almost a guarantee he will be bought out of his current contract. It would be strange if a team re-signed a guy they just bought out of a contract. Tavares doesn’t need the money. He‘ll likely retire.

 

[horner]

Ya I'm on board. Blow it to hell. Scorched earth. Should get a nice package of assets. Maybe once Mitch, Willy, Matthews, and Rielly are gone JT will reconsider.

Ii would but they wont

The leafs could re-sign Tavares but it’s almost a guarantee he will be bought out of his current contract. It would be strange if a team re-signed a guy they just bought out of a contract. Tavares doesn’t need the money. He‘ll likely retire.

I want him gone today.

 

[ULF_55]

The leafs could re-sign Tavares but it’s almost a guarantee he will be bought out of his current contract. It would be strange if a team re-signed a guy they just bought out of a contract. Tavares doesn’t need the money. He‘ll likely retire.

Tavares buyout doesn't save any Cap space.

If he agrees to a trade with retention and Leafs could get 7-8mm in Cap Space, that would be a huge difference. You can get a couple 3rd. liners, or a 3rd. and 2nd. line forward for that money.

 

[Mess]

The only one of the core 4 that can go via trade is really Nylander without tuning this upside down.

JT has a bullet proof non buyout contract with a full NMC that he claims he isn't going anywhere with at his recent end of season PC. If that is his position to play out his contract in TO then his NMC gives him full control to do so.

Both Marner and Matthews have NMC that kick in July 1st .. If Leafs trade Auston's best pal Mitch in the coming weeks that increases the odds Matthews also departs thereafter. So trading Marner likely to cost them both players anyways,

If the Leafs trade Matthews they're moving on from their best player and weakening the team, the cause and effect of essentially shooting themselves in the foot and then all else that follows in that wake undetermined and uncertain.