The Core Has To Go

[seventieslord]

I think wearing the C for Leafs is a curse. Those who wore the C for the Leafs always ended up being traded or MGT tried to trade them.

Keon left the league bc he couldn’t move to another team.
Sittler was traded.
Vaive was traded
Ramage was unprotected at expansion draft
Clark was traded for Sundin.
Gilmour traded for picks.
Sundin was supposed to be traded to the Nucks.
Dion was traded.
The tradition will continue with JT.

If I am a player, I would never be a Leafs Capt, bc it is a curse. Just have a whole bunch of As from now on.

Just curious, if you do this for other team's captains, where the team didn't win cups, what does it look like? Because this all seems pretty normal aside from the Keon thing.

 

[Gabriel426]

Draisaitl mcdavid had been on thebice for 27 goal against together... just as exemple matthews and marner together 14

You talked about mackinnon, lets see last yea how many game he didn't had a huge impact...
Gm 1 : 1 assist in a 3-2 win
Gm 2 : 1 goal in a 4-1 lost
Gm 3 1 assist insurance goal with 2 min left in the game... i
Gm 4 nothing in a 6-3 win
Gm 5 3 goal in a 5-4 lost
Gm 6 no pts in a 3-2 win

He had a real 1 real good gm in 6 and colorado still won and we there how watch ho good mack was... but matthews and or marner doing the same thing... how watch how trash they was...

the reality its matthews and marner cant score 2-3-4 goal every game...and when they dont, leafs lost every time

But MM and AM combined for like 1 goal in 5 games against the Panthers. And if you add JT, that’s 1 goal in 5 games for 33mil of the cap and none of them played goalie. You can’t say that’s enough. Also this is not their first playoffs that they disappeared when the going gets tough.

It is also not just them but the whole team. For 6 games against TB, they had the pack mentality and somehow they reverted back to playoffs past a few days later against the Panthers.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Dubas put the core in a position to succeed except the core can't get it done he trusts the core but the core is not going to win

 

[IPS]

If only thus were possible

Healthy scratches, stripped of tbe C, 10 mins a game with plugs. No PP time

Unfortunately a 25-35 pt 4th line tavares would only kills the leafs and tank his value simultaneously

He really should waive his deal if he wants to be remembered a bit better

Hes a total failure as a captain, but if he waives he wont get that hate even Sundin got (despite Mats being twice the player JT is and a leaf legend)

He will be getting heavy boo's if the team underperforms again as he is an outsider and not an original core piece who underperformed both in the reg season and playoffs and whose deal cost us good depth (2 of kap/AJ/hyman/kadri)

Tavares is at the top of my list for guys who NEED to go. Matthews and Marner got a lot of crap (rightfully so too) for their playoff performance but Tavares was honestly another level of bad. He has no place in playoff hockey with that skating.

 

[Gabriel426]

Just curious, if you do this for other team's captains, where the team didn't win cups, what does it look like? Because this all seems pretty normal aside from the Keon thing.

Don’t really know. Off top of my head, I do think some long serving Capts will get traded due team helping them to chase the Cup and they often ended up signing back to the original team.
Sedins retired as Capt but Linden was shipped out before them.
Pretty sure Sid, Bergy and Ovie will retire as Capt.

 

[Superstar]

Dubas put the core in a position to succeed except the core can't get it done he trusts the core but the core is not going to win

The problem is Dubas put half of the cap in the wrong core. The core should be carrying the team, not the depth players.

 

[thusk]

But MM and AM combined for like 1 goal in 5 games against the Panthers. And if you add JT, that’s 1 goal in 5 games for 33mil of the cap and none of them played goalie. You can’t say that’s enough. Also this is not their first playoffs that they disappeared when the going gets tough.

It is also not just them but the whole team. For 6 games against TB, they had the pack mentality and somehow they reverted back to playoffs past a few days later against the Panthers.

Knies goal gm 1 was a matthews play
Ror goal gm 2 was all marner

Half of leafs goal 1st 2 game was matthews/marner line

You talked a

 

[Gabriel426]

Knies goal gm 1 was a matthews play
Ror goal gm 2 was all marner

Half of leafs goal 1st 2 game was matthews/marner line

You talked a

Are they still playing?
If your top guys can only give you a goal/per game in the playoffs while their combined salary is 33mil. Thats not good at all.
They are paid to perform at the highest level and lead the team to WINS possibly the Cup.

We can sit here and debate, they did their part or other top guys in other teams did worse.... I don't give a crap about other players on other teams and I am pretty sure others here are the same, bc if any other teams win the Cup, I doubt any of us here will fly to that city and join in the parade. Leafs is my/our team. Other teams could have the best players in the World but we bleed Blue and White and thats why most if not all here only care about Leafs players.

The truth is that our top guys didn't deliver and if you think AM, MM and JT combined for 1 goal in FIVE games with plenty of PP time and 5 V 5 time are good enough, then I really hope the MGT don't think so, b/c no team will ever win the Cup when their top three forwards combine for 1 goal in 5 playoff games while 3 of those games are at home.

 

[steam whistle]

gents and ladies,

If leafs new GM have to keep Marner, he has to bring in tough guy like Tootoo, one punch can knock out opponents.
I like the saying of ads:

we are not the bar, we raise the bar.

Keep pressing the core 4, there is no easy life for anyone, including 16, 91. Keep pressing the players until we reach the goal, like the stores name: " that's hockey"

 

[TDotMassive]

Anyone know if JT can be bought out, and if so what that would look like?

 

[Trapper]

Anyone know if JT can be bought out, and if so what that would look like?

It’s not worth it.

Without buyout:
23/24 - 11 million
24/25 - 11 million

With buyout
23/24 - 10.4 million
24/25 - 10.4 million
2 more years at 300K

You are only saving 600K with 10 mil in dead space.

 

[MajorLeaf]

John Tavares Buyout:

Season: Cap Hit:
2023-24 $10,393,333
2024-25 $10,393,333
2025-26 $303,333
2026-27 $303,333

The way Tavares contract is structured he has signing bonus and then salary as follows:

Season: Signing Bonus: Salary: Total:
2023-24 $7,040,000 $910,000 $7,950,00
2024-25 $7,040,000 $910,000 $7,950,00

The real salary of $7,950,00 versus $11,000,000 could be somewhat attractive to a team if the Leafs pay the signing bonus this year and then trade him if JT would be willing to waive his NMC, but that is most likely not happening.

 

[RoadWarrior]

The problem is Dubas put half of the cap in the wrong core. The core should be carrying the team, not the depth players.

Dubas big mistake was spending $40M on 4 players who are unable to elevate their games in the playoffs and relying on a rookie coach to motivate them. The D and G was always thin and it showed.

Dubas could have fixed the problem but chose not to trade a core player. Instead he chose to patch holes by adding depth but it would never be enough.

John Tavares Buyout:

Season: Cap Hit:
2023-24 $10,393,333
2024-25 $10,393,333
2025-26 $303,333
2026-27 $303,333

The way Tavares contract is structured he has signing bonus and then salary as follows:

Season: Signing Bonus: Salary: Total:
2023-24 $7,040,000 $910,000 $7,950,00
2024-25 $7,040,000 $910,000 $7,950,00

The real salary of $7,950,00 versus $11,000,000 could be somewhat attractive to a team if the Leafs pay the signing bonus this year and then trade him if JT would be willing to waive his NMC, but that is most likely not happening.

Moot point. He has a no trade clause.

 

[kevsh]

Moot point. He has a no trade clause.

A new GM could tell Tavares something which he probably knows already, unless he's completely delusional: John's only got 2 years left in Toronto anyway, as there is no way he's getting re-signed here, so unless he retires he's going to be playing for another team anyway.

Any dream he has of retiring a Leaf and keeping his family in Toronto until he retires is simply not going to happen.

Now I get the odds are not good that conversation takes place, but if it did and by some miracle a trade partner is found that Tavares would accept being moved to, it's not a completely impossible scenario. Almost impossible but if the new GM has stones, why not take a shot at it?

 

[thusk]

Are they still playing?
If your top guys can only give you a goal/per game in the playoffs while their combined salary is 33mil. Thats not good at all.
They are paid to perform at the highest level and lead the team to WINS possibly the Cup.

We can sit here and debate, they did their part or other top guys in other teams did worse.... I don't give a crap about other players on other teams and I am pretty sure others here are the same, bc if any other teams win the Cup, I doubt any of us here will fly to that city and join in the parade. Leafs is my/our team. Other teams could have the best players in the World but we bleed Blue and White and thats why most if not all here only care about Leafs players.

The truth is that our top guys didn't deliver and if you think AM, MM and JT combined for 1 goal in FIVE games with plenty of PP time and 5 V 5 time are good enough, then I really hope the MGT don't think so, b/c no team will ever win the Cup when their top three forwards combine for 1 goal in 5 playoff games while 3 of those games are at home.

Who was leafs best foward first 8 game? The answer is Matthews and Marner... did i like how they played last 3? No marner had a good gm gm 4 but gm 3 and 5 was hard and pp was not good enough im totally agree... can we put all the blame on thoee player? No

Jt we all know hes paying too much for what he bringing but at least he was able to step up at big time in 1st round. I would be the 1st one agree totrade him but its not realistic

I really think using knies on 1st line was a mistake... not because the kid was not good enought but line was more bapanced woth knies with oreilly and acciari and his injury really hurt leafs... since the moment keefe split knies of oreilly line, this line never be as much dangerous...

1st 9 game, did you saw nylander outside of men advantage? If someone had to step up when matthews and marner was not able to drive leafs offensive and score enought goal, Nylander should be the #1 guy for it because hes the most talented leafs player after matthews and marner ...but we didn't see him until leafs was down 3-0. Its at this moment he started playing like regular season nylander... we can put blame on jt for nylanser struggle but he was just soft. when he was skated well and play with a higher intensity, he created thing but he did it 2 game+ 1 period

 

[Boxscore]

Who was leafs best foward first 8 game? The answer is Matthews and Marner... did i like how they played last 3? No marner had a good gm gm 4 but gm 3 and 5 was hard and pp was not good enough im totally agree... can we put all the blame on thoee player? No

Jt we all know hes paying too much for what he bringing but at least he was able to step up at big time in 1st round. I would be the 1st one agree totrade him but its not realistic

I really think using knies on 1st line was a mistake... not because the kid was not good enought but line was more bapanced woth knies with oreilly and acciari and his injury really hurt leafs... since the moment keefe split knies of oreilly line, this line never be as much dangerous...

1st 9 game, did you saw nylander outside of men advantage? If someone had to step up when matthews and marner was not able to drive leafs offensive and score enought goal, Nylander should be the #1 guy for it because hes the most talented leafs player after matthews and marner ...but we didn't see him until leafs was down 3-0. Its at this moment he started playing like regular season nylander... we can put blame on jt for nylanser struggle but he was just soft. when he was skated well and play with a higher intensity, he created thing but he did it 2 game+ 1 period

Since this core has been in place under Dubas, they have won ONE round in the playoffs. ONE. And it's mainly due to the fact that when other teams level up in the playoffs, the Leafs core cannot seem to find another level. It's why the amount of wins they have in "close out games" is absolutely abysmal.

Make no mistake -- Matthews, Marner, and Tavares absolutely set the tone for the way this team competes when it matters most, and they lack intensity and production. These guys are regular season titans when they can go out on a random Tuesday and pump in 5 points against a team like Vancouver or Philly. But when other teams ratchet up their intensity and checking in the playoffs, these guys come up short.

Outside of one game vs. Tampa, the only two players who were absolutely playing with desperation these playoffs were Rielly and Nylander.

I get it that Matthews and Marner are our best players but the truth needs to be said. These guys are as soft as toilet tissue in the playoffs. And both focus their attention on odd things. As far as Matthews goes, if he's looking to break the bank again with his next deal, instead of taking a team-friendly deal so we can surround him with better resources, it'll tell us everything we need to know about his priorities.

Matthews' career points per game:

Regular season: 1.13
Playoffs: 0.88

His 0.88 PPG in the playoffs equals a 72 point regular season. Do you think that type of production when it matters most warrants him being the highest paid player in the NHL (and putting the Leafs in a tight cap crunch) when his next contract is due?

I don't understand why people are afraid to be honest when it comes to Matthews? It's like we're afraid he's going to get his feelings hurt and leave.

 

[RoadWarrior]

A new GM could tell Tavares something which he probably knows already, unless he's completely delusional: John's only got 2 years left in Toronto anyway, as there is no way he's getting re-signed here, so unless he retires he's going to be playing for another team anyway.

Any dream he has of retiring a Leaf and keeping his family in Toronto until he retires is simply not going to happen.

Now I get the odds are not good that conversation takes place, but if it did and by some miracle a trade partner is found that Tavares would accept being moved to, it's not a completely impossible scenario. Almost impossible but if the new GM has stones, why not take a shot at it?

Tavares is done at the end of this contract which essentially means he is retiring as a leaf. So that is going to happen because they can’t trade him. I would say the odds of him agreeing to a trade only happen in one scenario. The leafs miss the playoffs and he gets traded to a contender in the 2024/5 season. That’s about it.

tavares isn’t going anywhere.

Since this core has been in place under Dubas, they have won ONE round in the playoffs. ONE. And it's mainly due to the fact that when other teams level up in the playoffs, the Leafs core cannot seem to find another level. It's why the amount of wins they have in "close out games" is absolutely abysmal.

Make no mistake -- Matthews, Marner, and Tavares absolutely set the tone for the way this team competes when it matters most, and they lack intensity and production. These guys are regular season titans when they can go out on a random Tuesday and pump in 5 points against a team like Vancouver or Philly. But when other teams ratchet up their intensity and checking in the playoffs, these guys come up short.

Outside of one game vs. Tampa, the only two players who were absolutely playing with desperation these playoffs were Rielly and Nylander.

I get it that Matthews and Marner are our best players but the truth needs to be said. These guys are as soft as toilet tissue in the playoffs. And both focus their attention on odd things. As far as Matthews goes, if he's looking to break the bank again with his next deal, instead of taking a team-friendly deal so we can surround him with better resources, it'll tell us everything we need to know about his priorities.

Matthews' career points per game:

Regular season: 1.13
Playoffs: 0.88

His 0.88 PPG in the playoffs equals a 72 point regular season. Do you think that type of production when it matters most warrants him being the highest paid player in the NHL (and putting the Leafs in a tight cap crunch) when his next contract is due?

I don't understand why people are afraid to be honest when it comes to Matthews? It's like we're afraid he's going to get his feelings hurt and leave.

It’s not just the overall playoff numbers. His production in elimination games is abysmal.

 

[Boxscore]

Tavares is done at the end of this contract which essentially means he is retiring as a leaf. So that is going to happen because they can’t trade him. I would say the odds of him agreeing to a trade only happen in one scenario. The leafs miss the playoffs and he gets traded to a contender in the 2024/5 season. That’s about it.

tavares isn’t going anywhere.


It’s not just the overall playoff numbers. His production in elimination games is abysmal.

Correct. But even more so, over the years it seems as if his intensity as a whole has dissipated. I want to know what happened to THIS kid?



I haven't seen that type of fire and intensity in him in a few years. And I haven't seen it in the playoffs again since his first trip when the underdog Leafs took the high-powered Caps to the brink.

Matthews is a 25 year old kid who most of the time lumbers around and looks like an aging 33 year old veteran. Especially when the playoffs arrive. This is the most important riddle that needs to be solved if the Leafs are going to win anything of consequence during his tenure.

Love him or hate him, PK Subban said something very interesting on the TNT Panel during the Leafs series. He said when the playoffs come, players look at potential opponents and don't want to draw the teams who are hard to play against. Then said teams like the Leafs are easy to play against.

He's right. Look at Florida -- they were lead by a flashy, offensive dynamo in Huberdeau who was soft and couldn't level up in the playoffs. They trade him AND a top-4 defenseman for a gritty, intense unicorn like Matt Tkachuk and they're immediately in the final four. Some players are just not built for playoff wars.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

 

[Boxscore]

These are accurate. So is this one with Frank...

 

[Stephen]

Just curious, if you do this for other team's captains, where the team didn't win cups, what does it look like? Because this all seems pretty normal aside from the Keon thing.

Most NHL captains get turfed before retirement one way or another. It's hardly unique.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Correct. But even more so, over the years it seems as if his intensity as a whole has dissipated. I want to know what happened to THIS kid?



I haven't seen that type of fire and intensity in him in a few years. And I haven't seen it in the playoffs again since his first trip when the underdog Leafs took the high-powered Caps to the brink.

Matthews is a 25 year old kid who most of the time lumbers around and looks like an aging 33 year old veteran. Especially when the playoffs arrive. This is the most important riddle that needs to be solved if the Leafs are going to win anything of consequence during his tenure.

Love him or hate him, PK Subban said something very interesting on the TNT Panel during the Leafs series. He said when the playoffs come, players look at potential opponents and don't want to draw the teams who are hard to play against. Then said teams like the Leafs are easy to play against.

He's right. Look at Florida -- they were lead by a flashy, offensive dynamo in Huberdeau who was soft and couldn't level up in the playoffs. They trade him AND a top-4 defenseman for a gritty, intense unicorn like Matt Tkachuk and they're immediately in the final four. Some players are just not built for playoff wars.

what happened? I can answer that.

He got PAID before he actually accomplished anything.

 

[Boxscore]

Most NHL captains get turfed before retirement one way or another. It's hardly unique.

Just thinking of the Flyers going back to Lindros...

All traded...
Lindros (stripped)
Forsberg
Richards
Giroux

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Anyone know if JT can be bought out, and if so what that would look like?

You can't realistically buy out those signing bonus-heavy contracts.

 

[Bellzy]

Can you imagine if the Leafs missed the playoffs?

We would miss out on a whole 5-7 games of the yearly humiliation ritual!

And get a decent pick!