Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
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- 60,654
The Core Has To Go
- Thread starter Funk21
- Start date
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 82,315
- 60,654
What I find frustrating are the talking points like Matthews won't want to come back because the cushy GM is gone. Wish that logic applied to Tavares...
Larcos_Unal
Excuses are for losers
There's no rule that says that if you get the C you have to retire with the team. Lots of captains get traded, are not re-signed...all players have a shelf life.
thusk
Registered User
Leafs core outplayed tampa core 2 year in a row
Leafs didn't lost because of core... watch team who having succes, they all have 3 line who constantly producing offensivly and playing well both way of the ice...
You made me laught with nylander showing desperation... he showed desperation at 0-3, he was totally absent first 9 playoff game...
Marner line only allowed 6 goal when he was on the ice, yes he didn't bring much offensive we hoping for but he shutdown some... just as exemple, when nylander was on the ice you can multiply by 2 because nylander just never didn't cared about playing defensivly... the goal in playoff is not just to score and create offensive, its allowed less goal than you score...
If you helped to score 13 goal and allowed only 6 especially when most of the time you will play opponent top 6 line... sorry did your job at even strenght. You helped your team to score 7 goal over your opponent
If you scored 9 and allowed 13 by playing most of the time against opponent bottom line... sorry you didn't get job done. Youre line gave 4 over what you did, sorry you didn't do your job at even strenght when you played weaker opposition
Difference of nylander vs marner on the overall, its 11 goal (+7) -(-4 ) =11
11 goal Thats the number of goal you need to find a way to get back if you keeping nylander line and traded away nylander line. Its 44% of leafs goal at 5v5 during last playoff you need to bring back in your side
The goal is not to score higher amount of goal possible whatever what, its to score more goal than your opponent...
Last edited:
- Jan 22, 2007
- 14,705
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I think the money is certainly a part of it but not the whole story. I think it has more to do with the cozy, pillowy, spoiled culture that Dubas, and ultimately Shanahan, created.
1. Pursuing Tavares as a UFA and giving him the 2nd highest cap hit in the NHL at the time behind McDavid.
2. Nuking old school, no-nonsense winners like Lou and Babcock.
3. Caving in a game of chicken vs. Nylander.
4. Overpaying Marner.
5. Completely cowering to Matthews and giving him a blank check and not even pushing back on his demands of a short-term deal.
6. Playoff failure after failure with zero accountability.
7. Laxing on the team dress code because the players were concerned with having to dress up.
Up until Friday, the Leafs were running a country club and Dubas, Matthews, and Marner were the honorary members. They were the kids staying out past curfew and failing classes and the parents never held them accountable.
Honestly, I think after Dubas made his bratty power play, Shanahan finally had enough and said no more. Hopefully this is a wakeup call and others in the organization start stepping up, mainly Matthews and Marner.
Matthews has been spoiled and babied since day one and we're seeing the results. For crying out loud, Kypreos was saying that Matthews no longer wanted Bunting on his line because he was sick of getting into scrums and dust ups after the whistle due to him. Not a good look for a 6-3, 215 pound man child.
- Jan 22, 2007
- 14,705
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Agreed. Getting rid of Tavares will likely be 10x harder than getting rid of Ballard... and he owned the team lol.
ULF_55
Moderator
Really wish people would stop including the 6th. highest ,cap player in the core 4.
Nylander is not even close to the double digits.
Other than production.
Nylander is not even close to the double digits.
Other than production.
You are making it sounds like it is okay for AM, JT, and MM to struggle and it is unfair to point at them and not Willie. Nobody is saying Willie played great, he did played better than the other three against the Panthers but that’s really the tallest of the Hobbits. They all sucks big time collectively and it’s been the same story again, and again.
Keefe can’t coach is one factor but the fact that MM was turning over pucks after pucks just showed he needs a mental coach more than anything. The talents are there and what’s disappointing is the fact that they didn’t even fight back against the Panthers while they did that a few days prior against TB.
They deserve criticisms and they know it too. They probably believe that 1st round is a jinx and once they move past 1st round, they will steamroll everyone and when they realize that’s not the case, it was too late.
We all kept saying the players should play for the logo in front not the names on the back, think it is time for the fans to do the same. Goal is to win the Cup regardless of who is on the Leafs.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Not a chance. If he wants to play, there's a contract waiting for him somewhere. Not for anything close to 11 million but for a good two or three million more than he's worth, I'm quite certain.
He's not the first good player whose skating sucks. They all found ways to extend their careers and so will he.
thusk
Registered User
But if yout ook all playoff game together... Nylander had been the worst leafs foward and not just worst core player
Ps nobody had more scoring on both team than Matthews in florida serie and matthews was pretty good 1st 2 game...
But after 2 game when matthews-marner line was unable to bring more than 2 goal( leafs had 4 in total) and leafs trailed 2-0. The pressure started to be on wich player? Matthews/Marner... thats where Bobrovsky stard to enter in Matthews head and he started to miss shot like 5 feet beside the net and wasn't unable to hit the net anymore... i dont think people here just realize what pressure can create...
If Nylander would have played the same way gm 1 and 2 like he did game 4 and 5, im pretty sure the serie would be tight after 2 and maybe leafs would had a 2-0 lead... this would be a complete different serie and maybe without all the pressure of trailing 2-0/ 3-0... a complete different result at the end... but he waiting until the last moment at the worst time possible to finally raise his game and when i heard he was the best player vs florida thats why im upset because at the end, his lack of commitment was one of biggest reason why leafs trailed by 3 because he put all the pressure of the world on matthews and marner shoulder...
Tavares will be in his late 30’s and and in serious decline at the end of his contract. If he signs with an NHL team it will be playing 4th line at even strength and maybe 6 minutes of PP time as a PP specialist. Very similar to Jason Allison.
im not convinced Tavares has interest in that kind of diminished role.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Buds17
Registered User
- Nov 29, 2015
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seventieslord
Student Of The Game
OK, my point was not to reply to your broader point as a whole, but to point out the gross inaccuracy of saying he'll be in his late 30s when his contract expires. He'll be 34. That's a fact.
If you want a reply beyond that, very well.
We'll all still be here in 2 years' time. Bookmark my post and laugh at me when I'm wrong.
- Tavares will NOT be done at the end of this contract.
- A team WILL give him in the range of $4-5M per year
- He will NOT be a 4th liner at even strength (though I agree his new team will look to exploit his PP usefulness as much as possible)
- He WILL have interest in that kind of role to prolong his career considering the money involved. He's already hinted at it.
As far as Allison is concerned, I don't think that there's much of a comparison to be made between them other than they were both very good players whose skating was the worst part of their game.
- Allison was a playmaker and his lack of speed wasn't necessarily a hindrance when he was on. He had a knack to slow the game down similar to how Lemieux played post-comeback. Tavares is only an average puck-distributor so his lack of speed has hurt his effectiveness more.
- Tavares is just slow at 32. Allison, in his one post-lockout season at age 30, was a whole different level of slow. Like, noticeably slower than slow players.
- Tavares is a much better player than Allison with a much better track record. Allison's record of staying healthy and producing was so spotty, that his post-lockout year was the 5th-best season of his career. Tavares has 13 seasons that good, with only his rookie season falling short. He is a much better bet to be healthy and to find a way to stay productive.
And just to point out a couple other things, Allison was never a 4th line player and PP specialist. The Leafs played him like a second liner all season. He also wasn't necessarily "finished" after that season. He had interest from teams but no one wanted to give him the deal he wanted, so he just said f*** it and retired. Says a lot about his character. So while it's factual that Allison retired at 31, he hadn't lost all his effectiveness nor was there no interest in him around the league.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Feel free to go research those situations yourself.
But just to recap, the whole point of what we were talking about was taking his captaincy away in preparation for trading him shortly after, not to keep him around sulking. So, will the team have "success" after doing that? Yes, I'm pretty confident that after moving him and making better use of the cap space that it opens up, the team would be better, perhaps significantly. Aren't you?
Buds17
Registered User
- Nov 29, 2015
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The new GM might very well be able to improve the team via whatever cap space is gained through a theoretical Tavares trade (FTR, I think the possibility of a trade becomes a bit more likely now with a GM that isn't Dubas in tow). However, the possibility also exists for the "new coach" (that I think we'll be getting with a GM hired from outside of the organization) to get more out of Tavares than Keefe has been able to. Time will ultimately tell.
Who cares if Willie is the worst forward or played better than the other three. They all didn’t perform and didn’t do anything.
Arguing over who is the worst forward is the same as arguing who sucked the least.
I am not saying pressure won’t get to players and stuff but that’s why the top guys need to lead and perform. If you can’t handle the pressure then you can’t be the Man that the team rely on when needed.
AM, MM, JT and Willie are all great players, maybe even HOFs but so far none of them had shown that they can be the MJ for the team and all are showing they are just Pippen or Rodman.
Taken from the late Kobe, when he was asked about pressure, he said he practiced a million times on shots and prepare mentally for game situation. When game situation happens, he won’t feel pressure anymore. Can’t see how our guys can’t have that mentality.
ULF_55
Moderator
Moving marner or Tavares permits better use of cap space.
They have 3 players who combined make over 33 million.
Those 3 players are in an area code all their own.
No other player is close to that burden.
Seriously, the tier one players, marner Matthews, Tavares have to be held to the highest level of accountability. Anyone pointing at other players are just trying to mitigate the disaster of those 3 players in the post season.
marner, Matthews, Tavares ... they alone are the Cap issue.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
FTR, I agree that every single one of them is a cap issue. I'm only focusing on moving the one that is a real anchor at this time.
There are issues with this team and I have no problem with blowing it up if it comes to that but I also think there's been some bad luck involved in the playoff failures. Florida looks like they've caught lightning in a bottle like Mtl two years ago and are legit playing extremely well. Two teams that finished in 8th that nobody took seriously. What are the odds of running into two teams like that in three years? Not to mention the fluke JT injury in the Mtl series that could've made the difference in the last three games considering how close they were. The Leafs also had to play arguably the best team in the NHL in the last 20 years in the first round last year because the NHL changed the playoff format.
Didn't Allison have something happen to his knee or knees? I seem to remember something bad going on down there
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I think it was his knee that caused him to miss a full season prior to the lockout.
He insisted that he used to be fast, and that he won a team speed competition before the injury.
I think that for the most part, luck has not been on Toronto's side, except this year vs Tampa. That said, a great team that deserves to win the cup will make sure nothing is left to chance or luck. A great team will survive bad breaks.
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
- Aug 1, 2013
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Feel like Jason Spezza is the more obvious comparison. Maybe a little bit better than Spezza. FO specialist, PP guy, can still provide offense in a bottom 6 until he is almost 40. Not like Spezza was a premier skater at any point either.
If he goes as long as Spezza, he'd have another 5 years in him after his contract expires... And most of those would likely come at a number that is far below the value he brings to the ice.
Hypothetically we move JT out and then what?
Who do we fill his spot with? More overpaid UFA signings?
Keep JT, let him take a massive hometown discount after these next 2 years.
Who do we fill his spot with? More overpaid UFA signings?
Keep JT, let him take a massive hometown discount after these next 2 years.
