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Ouch.... officially lost any limited faith I had in this organization. Shanahan saying he was happy with the team under Dubas and offering the extension pre-playoffs was brutal, but if CJ is on point at all, that is scary and completely offputting. This team with this core will never do anything.
You can't teach a guy to care about getting punched in the face 3 times. If they won't even stand up for themselves, why in the hell would they buy into team strength or stick up for any teammate?
Ouch.... officially lost any limited faith I had in this organization. Shanahan saying he was happy with the team under Dubas and offering the extension pre-playoffs was brutal, but if CJ is on point at all, that is scary and completely offputting. This team with this core will never do anything.
You can't teach a guy to care about getting punched in the face 3 times. If they won't even stand up for themselves, why in the hell would they buy into team strength or stick up for any teammate?
I'm not a doom and gloom person. I don't think the core is rotten and management always has to speak out of both sides of their face.
I'm a fire the coach person though. In another thread I said I thought Keefe messed up right from game 2 of round one when he started Sammy and rolled with him until injury forced his hand, in game strategy is lacking and inability to make adjustments to Fla system are all reasons I felt we lost, but the biggest reason is Bobrovsky. He's on another level right now. He is showing it again vs Carolina.
The next Maple Leafs GM — whoever that may be — has a lot to do and almost no time to do it.
theathletic.com
2. Assess market for star trade/make star trade
Tavares is a tricky one obviously. He makes a lot — at $11 million on the cap for the next two seasons — and he’ll be 33 in the fall. He can, crucially, decline to go anywhere, what with his no-movement clause.
A contending team might be interested if the Leafs retained money in the deal and attached assets. A bad/rebuilding team could be interested to take on the full deal (maybe?) if the Leafs really make it worth their while with picks, prospects etc.
In which case, it stops making sense for the Leafs.
Could the Leafs make a Tavares trade but also get a helpful player, maybe on a bad contract himself, in return? (My first thought on that was San Jose and Logan Couture, who has an $8 million cap hit. Problem No. 1: Couture has four years left on his contract. Problem No. 2: Couture is 34. So, the Leafs would be netting $3 million in cap space for the next two seasons but adding two more problematic seasons after that. So yeah, probably a no.)
And again, there’s Tavares, who won’t be inclined to leave his hometown team to play for a cellar dweller or any other team for that matter in all likelihood.
Which means it’s almost certain that one of either Marner or Nylander moves. And what that decision may boil down to is which path is preferable to the Leafs GM:
Nylander can sign an extension on July 1 and you have to assume he’ll be looking for $9 million-plus on a long-term deal. (Word of warning to the next Leafs GM: Nylander’s agent Lewis Gross won’t be pushed around.)
If the Leafs and their new GM don’t want to pay that kind of price for Nylander then he feels like the likelier star to go. But wait, you might say! Wouldn’t he have less trade value than Marner, what with the single year left on his contract? Yes.
However, it’s reasonable to assume that any team parting with assets to acquire Nylander is a team that wants to be in the Nylander business for the long haul. In other words, that team might well be interested in executing a sign-and-trade with the Leafs, which would obviously help greatly in the return.
That team would be getting Nylander at $6.9 million on the cap for next season, superb value, and years and years after that.
Nylander has a limited no-trade clause that kicks in on Canada Day, so there’s that to keep in mind. However, the Leafs will obviously know what they’re going to do with him and his contract by then.
If they do decide to extend Nylander, Marner would be the piece to move. Which is, well, a big meatball. Marner has a no-movement clause that also kicks in on Canada Day, at which point he’ll have total say on his future.
He’s got two years left at $10.9 million on the cap. He can sign an extension next summer, which will be much larger in size. That’s another part of this conversation: Are the Leafs interested in paying his next contract? Or would they rather pay Nylander instead?
Which player nets more in return: Marner with the two years left on his deal or Nylander in a sign-and-trade? It might still be Marner, the superior all-around player. But you could argue for Nylander too. And that’s what the Leafs will have to explore in trade talks.
Could the Leafs trade both? I suppose, but that feels unlikely.
Part of the conversation for the next Leafs GM should be determining which player they believe will deliver more in future postseasons. Nylander probably has the slight edge from the past few playoffs, but it’s close, what with the value that Marner delivers defensively.
Another part of the conversation: What exactly do the Leafs want in return? Ideally, it’s a talented young forward (ideally, a centre) who can help replace the outgoing production at a lesser price, not to mention other stuff like picks and prospects and maybe even ready-made help on defence.
Trading Marner might well net even more cap space.
Maybe (likely?) it’s a blockbuster with lots of names involved.
More grim news from Friedman: "He also says guys like George McPhee and Doug Armstrong aren’t coming to Toronto with its current structure (i.e. Shanahan above them) Also someone who, according to Elliotte, fits the description that the Leafs are looking for as the next GM told him he wouldn’t...
forums.hfboards.com
(Leafs talk from 6:15 to 21:15, and 29:15 to 33:20)
CJ mentioned 3 candidates on his latest pod that he thinks will get a look:
- Brad Treliving (called him the favourite heading into the interview process)
- Jason Botterill
- Doug Armstrong (if it's even possible, but he's heard his name going around)
After those first 3 names he brought up he quickly spitballed some other names, but it seemed more like him just naming available guys with GM experience off the top of his head. The first 3 names were mentioned in more of a "I've heard these names being discussed among hockey people" type of way.
I'm not sure if anyone other insiders have mentioned this yet, but another thing he said he heard is that the Core 4 all seem to be under the impression after speaking with Shanahan following Dubas getting let go, that they will all be back next season.
I'm starting to wonder if Shanahan will only hire someone who commits to keeping the Core 4 together, and I'm also starting to wonder if something else that alarmed Shanahan from Dubas' presser that he chose not to outright mention when he spoke Friday, was the fact that Dubas wouldn't commit to bringing the Core 4 back next season.
More grim news from Friedman: "He also says guys like George McPhee and Doug Armstrong aren’t coming to Toronto with its current structure (i.e. Shanahan above them) Also someone who, according to Elliotte, fits the description that the Leafs are looking for as the next GM told him he wouldn’t...
forums.hfboards.com
(Leafs talk from 6:15 to 21:15, and 29:15 to 33:20)
CJ mentioned 3 candidates on his latest pod that he thinks will get a look:
- Brad Treliving (called him the favourite heading into the interview process)
- Jason Botterill
- Doug Armstrong (if it's even possible, but he's heard his name going around)
After those first 3 names he brought up he quickly spitballed some other names, but it seemed more like him just naming available guys with GM experience off the top of his head. The first 3 names were mentioned in more of a "I've heard these names being discussed among hockey people" type of way.
I'm not sure if anyone other insiders have mentioned this yet, but another thing he said he heard is that the Core 4 all seem to be under the impression after speaking with Shanahan following Dubas getting let go, that they will all be back next season.
I'm starting to wonder if Shanahan will only hire someone who commits to keeping the Core 4 together, and I'm also starting to wonder if something else that alarmed Shanahan from Dubas' presser that he chose not to outright mention when he spoke Friday, was the fact that Dubas wouldn't commit to bringing the Core 4 back next season.
Nothing surprises me. It could just be that Dubas only really gave a shit for his circle and was willing to jettison the core to buy Keefe more time by scapegoating them.
I'm not sure if anyone other insiders have mentioned this yet, but another thing he said he heard is that the Core 4 all seem to be under the impression after speaking with Shanahan following Dubas getting let go, that they will all be back next season.
I'm starting to wonder if Shanahan will only hire someone who commits to keeping the Core 4 together, and I'm also starting to wonder if something else that alarmed Shanahan from Dubas' presser that he chose not to outright mention when he spoke Friday, was the fact that Dubas wouldn't commit to bringing the Core 4 back next season.
Honestly it seems like an absolute nightmare trying to get anything done with the leafs as a GM.
Shannahan is the first level of "approval" and after that the board needs to approve. f*** that. When you hire someone into the GM position of a team you're putting all your trust in their hands to manage the roster. If they don't actually have control over the roster, whats the point?
This also shines a lot of light on the overall feel / messaging around the team. Every move, including things like the in arena entertainment, is put through a corporate filter.
This team will never win with this kind of ownership. The issues start there. Respect for Dubas for trying to gain more control over the roster decisions.
Tavares will absolutely continue playing in the NHL after his deal with the Leafs. He will likely go the way of Joe Pavelski and Corey Perry. In fact, he'll likely be a brilliant depth piece for a contender and win a Cup towards the end of his career.
I think part of the problem might have been that they thought they were paying for early to mid 20's JT who was a legit super elite player in the NHL. JT finished 2nd in points one year and top ten in another despite not playing with any other legit top line wingers and was nominated for the Hart.
JT had a pretty steep decline after the age of 25 as far as where he ranked in the hierarchy of the NHL. He was still a very good player and legit #1 c, but not close to being the arguably top 5 player in the league he was at one point.
Yes, Tavares was famous for dragging bad teammates to good production on the Islanders. Meanwhile after the 1st season on the Leafs, Tavares is known for dragging good players down.
To be fair, part of it is bad scouting. His speed was never good, and it was going to slow down. NHL got faster. For example, Stamkos while bad in the playoffs, has been still killerish in the regular season because his shot never ages as speed does. He also provides unique value, we desperately need a slap shot. Tavares after he lost his ability to dangle through people, was a slightly worse JVR.
Let's get serious leaf fans. Major changes were going to happen if Toronto kept losing. Toronto fans want a cup and not playoff futility. You have to change in order to win. Running it back was a bad plan.
I'm not sure if anyone other insiders have mentioned this yet, but another thing he said he heard is that the Core 4 all seem to be under the impression after speaking with Shanahan following Dubas getting let go, that they will all be back next season.
I'm starting to wonder if Shanahan will only hire someone who commits to keeping the Core 4 together, and I'm also starting to wonder if something else that alarmed Shanahan from Dubas' presser that he chose not to outright mention when he spoke Friday, was the fact that Dubas wouldn't commit to bringing the Core 4 back next season.
This is my read of the situation. Dubas wanted autonomy, including moving one of the core 4. I think we'll see with Shanahan, they'll attempt to keep and extend them... if Matthews will resign.
More of the same is the Shanaplan... not the Dubas plan.
This is my read of the situation. Dubas wanted autonomy, including moving one of the core 4. I think we'll see with Shanahan, they'll attempt to keep and extend them... if Matthews will resign.
More of the same is the Shanaplan... not the Dubas plan.
100% agree, can't see any GM wanting to come into a position whereby they don't have final say on most matters, particularly ones that obviously fit under their role.
Time for Shanahan to decide what he wants to be as your saying
This is my read of the situation. Dubas wanted autonomy, including moving one of the core 4. I think we'll see with Shanahan, they'll attempt to keep and extend them... if Matthews will resign.
More of the same is the Shanaplan... not the Dubas plan.
This is my read of the situation. Dubas wanted autonomy, including moving one of the core 4. I think we'll see with Shanahan, they'll attempt to keep and extend them... if Matthews will resign.
More of the same is the Shanaplan... not the Dubas plan.
If we’re looking to trade some of the core because of the lack of results, take a look at what Florida is doing to Carolina right now. If Carolina loses in 4 or 5 games, I doubt people will be calling for a tear down of their core.
Unfortunately for the Leafs, I think it’s much more than performance that is getting people to seriously think about blowing it up. Contracts are a serious concern.
We don’t know if Matthews will re-sign or not and all the core is going to have either total control or partial control of their destiny after July 1st.
The Leafs can’t afford to lose any of these guys for nothing, and even if they all decide to re-sign… can we really afford them? I think we all know that we can’t.
It's an easy but lazy way of including him with the other three, that seems to be heavily promoted by the press. Easier to say "four players getting $40M" than "three getting $33.5M", and they would lose the "half the cap!" catchphrase.
Plus, if you separate out his cap hit, it just makes the others look worse.
Who cares if Willie is the worst forward or played better than the other three. They all didn’t perform and didn’t do anything.
Arguing over who is the worst forward is the same as arguing who sucked the least.
I am not saying pressure won’t get to players and stuff but that’s why the top guys need to lead and perform. If you can’t handle the pressure then you can’t be the Man that the team rely on when needed.
AM, MM, JT and Willie are all great players, maybe even HOFs but so far none of them had shown that they can be the MJ for the team and all are showing they are just Pippen or Rodman.
Taken from the late Kobe, when he was asked about pressure, he said he practiced a million times on shots and prepare mentally for game situation. When game situation happens, he won’t feel pressure anymore. Can’t see how our guys can’t have that mentality.
Yep, like I mentioned earlier, it is like he is on a crusade to move Willie out of town and hope AM, MM and JT will advance past the 1st round and beyond.
Remove JT and some bargain basement defenseman and goalie who make $1M each, and you've got room for a $5M 2nd line center, a $4M defenseman and. $4M goalie, just to provide one of countless possible ways to spend it. You can't seriously think that wouldn't make a big difference in the lineup if spent correctly.
Tavares’ money isn’t the problem it’s that his game doesn’t work with anyone we have. When we got him I hoped the game plan was to use him like NYI did and find cheap Parenteau and Moulsons to run as a second first line. If you get a high end 2nd line it doesn’t matter if the money is split up 2-11-2 or 5-5-5. You run into problems when you’re paying your 2nd line 3.5-11–10.7 and they’re not getting anything done at ES.
That all depends where you trade him and what their needs are. Maybe one of those pieces I referred to comes from the trade. Maybe it's a contract that's one or two years longer than you would like, maybe it's one or two million dollars higher than you would like, but it's at a position where we can actually use the player and the value isn't so bad.
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