The Core Has To Go

[Notsince67]

"Disappear? Leads the team"

That right there is the entire crux of the issue. That he is one of our team's biggest leaders and he does disappear. He puts up 11 points in six games against Tampa and there's not a single peep of complaint because why would there be? He did his job and led from the front, playing the way that we all want him to. Then he puts up 3 points in five against Florida and people come out to complain exactly because he disappeared. 0 goals against CBJ, 0 goals against MTL, only ever scored in games 1 and 2 against Tampa, he literally does not produce when we need him the most. Who the f*** cares if he throws hits when he's paid to put up points? Who the hell cares that he was a star in round 1 when he disappeared in round 2?

Year after year after year Marner has let us down. Seven hits as we roll over and die isn't impressive at all. Defining soft/hard as the number of hits you throw is a definition that doesn't fool anyone. You're right he leads the team, and under his leadership the Leafs bow out again and again. My debating points are all about how the leadership structure of this team is a colossal failure and the guys at the front are exactly where the blame lies.

How is it that the guys who are paid to score goals didn't disappear?

"Disappear? Leads the team"

That right there is the entire crux of the issue. That he is one of our team's biggest leaders and he does disappear. He puts up 11 points in six games against Tampa and there's not a single peep of complaint because why would there be? He did his job and led from the front, playing the way that we all want him to. Then he puts up 3 points in five against Florida and people come out to complain exactly because he disappeared. 0 goals against CBJ, 0 goals against MTL, only ever scored in games 1 and 2 against Tampa, he literally does not produce when we need him the most. Who the f*** cares if he throws hits when he's paid to put up points? Who the hell cares that he was a star in round 1 when he disappeared in round 2?

Year after year after year Marner has let us down. Seven hits as we roll over and die isn't impressive at all. Defining soft/hard as the number of hits you throw is a definition that doesn't fool anyone. You're right he leads the team, and under his leadership the Leafs bow out again and again. My debating points are all about how the leadership structure of this team is a colossal failure and the guys at the front are exactly where the blame lies.

Marner exited the defensive zone at a rate that was almost double that of Matthews. WhereTF was Matthews when Marner is effectively playing a center position and doing the defensive heavy lifting? Why did he lead all forwards in defensive zone retrieval more than doubling Nylander?
Disappear? Between Rielly's failed exits and the botched retrieval of Rielly, Schenn, McCabe and Brodie, it was lucky the score from Fla was as low as it was. While one forward was watching the store, the other ones weren't scoring with or without his assistance. The series wasn't as clear cut as you make it out to be.

 

[ORRFForever]

I am sure this has been posted but...

Report: Toronto Maple Leafs ‘Core Four’ Will Not Be Traded​

MSN

LOL. Short terms deals for the younger 3 and hope they can make a Florida-esk run before they are 30.

*************************************************************

Nylander is going to ask for 10+
Matthews is going to ask for 13.5+

Yup. And then Marner will want what Matthews gets.

 

[ToneDog]

Pending UFA Pasta was on pace for 60 goals and over 100 points was a few months away from UFA when he signed for 11.25x8 coming off a sweet team deal. Matty coming off 40 goal 85 point season and round 2 no show is gonna be the highest paid player after coming off sweet player deal. Why does Toronto have to overpay its stars??

 

[steam whistle]

MM 16 definitely needs to be traded

 

[Suntouchable13]

Imagine if Masai Ujiri was that stubborn and never made a tough decision to trade a core piece. The Raptors would still be at exctly 0 rings. I still hope that report is not really how Leafs brass thinks. Nothing should be off the table, at the very least.

 

[LeafGrief]

How is it that the guys who are paid to score goals didn't disappear?

Marner exited the defensive zone at a rate that was almost double that of Matthews. WhereTF was Matthews when Marner is effectively playing a center position and doing the defensive heavy lifting? Why did he lead all forwards in defensive zone retrieval more than doubling Nylander?
Disappear? Between Rielly's failed exits and the botched retrieval of Rielly, Schenn, McCabe and Brodie, it was lucky the score from Fla was as low as it was. While one forward was watching the store, the other ones weren't scoring with or without his assistance. The series wasn't as clear cut as you make it out to be.

It ain’t just Marner who is at fault, but at 11m he’s absolutely paid to score and to generate offense. Matthews was terrible too, this isn’t just one and done and I never claimed it was “clear cut”. I wrote out a criticism of Marner that seems to be making you unhappy. And honestly, when we’re down into the weeds on zone retrievals that’s when you know Marner wasn’t getting it done. He didn’t produce, and neither did a bunch of guys.

Rielly put the team on his back.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Seller Beware: Can the Toronto Maple Leafs actually win a trade involving the Core Four?

Florida’s Tkachuk trade is an exception. Historically, dealing a core star in the middle of your contention window is a...

www.dailyfaceoff.com

We weren’t in the room with Brendan Shanahan and Kyle Dubas over the past few seasons when their relationship reportedly deteriorated as Toronto Maple Leafs president and GM, respectively. It’s thus difficult to assign blame for the erosion of what appeared to be a cohesive organizational power structure in their nine years working together. Was Dubas trying to overthrow Shanahan and take total power over personnel decisions? Did Shanahan’s emotional reaction to a request for a raise from his GM do irreparable damage to the franchise?

Questions like these are undoubtedly intriguing, but we don’t have enough information to speculate, despite the “open” address Shanahan gave last week, which clearly didn’t include every last detail. What we can say with a fair amount of confidence is that major changes are coming to this team. We already know a new GM will take over. It remains to be seen if support staff such as assistant GM Brandon Pridham and assistant coach Spencer Carbery get poached by other organizations. And many questions loom about the futures of Toronto’s star players, particularly the Core Four forward group of Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner, John Tavares and William Nylander.

Will the incoming GM blow it up? We can’t say for certain, but we can hypothesize as to what comes next based on crumbs Shanahan left at the table last week. He mentioned in his presser that experience would be an “attractive” trait in the next GM. Sure, one could interpret experience in many ways, as internal candidates like Pridham have experience with the Leafs as an organization, but it’s more likely Shanahan was hinting at the experience of a seasoned NHL GM. That could mean hiring a veteran unattached to the current core and unafraid to demolish it.

If the Leafs lean in the direction of ex-Calgary Flames GM Brad Treliving or, in a move that still sounds more like fan fiction than reality, St. Louis Blues GM Doug Armstrong, it thus would reasonable to expect a trade of at least one star player.

But is that a deal the Toronto Maple Leafs can win? More specifically, is it a deal they can win in the present, reloading and still managing to contend?

 

[notDatsyuk]

Uh huh. Trade Marner who is the only leaf in 20 years with a game winning goal in the second round. That will solve everything.

And if he had done a better job on the PK during Reinhart's goal, it would have been Nylander with the GWG. (The way baseball picks the game winner, Willy would have it anyway.)

Not denigrating his goal or blaming him for Reinhart's, just saying that GWG by itself may not be the best argument.

 

[Dirty Dan]

Imagine if Masai Ujiri was that stubborn and never made a tough decision to trade a core piece. The Raptors would still be at exctly 0 rings. I still hope that report is not really how Leafs brass thinks. Nothing should be off the table, at the very least.

Yeah they went all in in a big way and it worked. The NBA is a very hard league to win in because top heavy teams like GS and Lebrons teams have been dominating

 

[ShaneFalco]

It ain’t just Marner who is at fault, but at 11m he’s absolutely paid to score and to generate offense. Matthews was terrible too, this isn’t just one and done and I never claimed it was “clear cut”. I wrote out a criticism of Marner that seems to be making you unhappy. And honestly, when we’re down into the weeds on zone retrievals that’s when you know Marner wasn’t getting it done. He didn’t produce, and neither did a bunch of guys.

Rielly put the team on his back.

Too many players of the same type who all play the big minutes

 

[ORRFForever]

No GM is going to have the courage to blow up the 4. He'd NEVER hear the end of it / NEVER live it down. Plus, the 4 need each other. The Leafs will...

1) Extend Matthews and Marner with short deals and LOTS of money;
2) Agree to a much cheaper deal with JT - so he can finish his career here;
3) Take some of the money they save from JT and make Nylander happy.

Again, they are NOT going anywhere.

 

[steam whistle]

No GM is going to have the courage to blow up the 4. He'd NEVER hear the end of it / NEVER live it down. Plus, the 4 need each other. The Leafs will...

1) Extend Matthews and Marner with short deals and LOTS of money;
2) Agree to a much cheaper deal with JT - so he can finish his career here;
3) Take some of the money they save from JT and make Nylander happy.

Again, they are NOT going anywhere.

I felt was shot twice, damn.

 

[ORRFForever]

I felt was shot twice, damn.

Huh? ??? You lost me.

 

[steam whistle]

Huh? ??? You lost me.

Because I will see softy Tofo #16 again

 

[ORRFForever]

Because I will see softy Tofo #16 again

34, 16, 91, 88 aren't going anywhere, my friend.

 

[Stephen]

There is some validity in hanging onto the Big 4. Won't be satisfying if you want dramatic, mandated change and to punish someone for this year's loss to Florida.

The piece we need to get rid of is Tavares, he is The Problem. He's on the decline, awful 5 on 5, a power play mirage and otherwise probably not the captain we need, but he's the one's that's most locked in.

The one we are afraid to lose is Auston Matthews, and I think they are looking at stability as the biggest selling point in bringing him back.

Marner and Nylander would be sacrificial trades, but Marner ensures you're a great team for 82 games and then it's anyone's guess in the playoffs, while Nylander is up and down over 82 but don't seem as burdened in big games as everyone else.

I think the idea is you solve for Matthews and just drag it out long enough that Tavares goes away.

 

[socko]

I have more faith in lucky lottery balls winning the Leafs a Cup than this core. I've seen 7 years of evidence that they don't have it.

 

[Boxscore]

There is some validity in hanging onto the Big 4. Won't be satisfying if you want dramatic, mandated change and to punish someone for this year's loss to Florida.

The piece we need to get rid of is Tavares, he is The Problem. He's on the decline, awful 5 on 5, a power play mirage and otherwise probably not the captain we need, but he's the one's that's most locked in.

The one we are afraid to lose is Auston Matthews, and I think they are looking at stability as the biggest selling point in bringing him back.

Marner and Nylander would be sacrificial trades, but Marner ensures you're a great team for 82 games and then it's anyone's guess in the playoffs, while Nylander is up and down over 82 but don't seem as burdened in big games as everyone else.

I think the idea is you solve for Matthews and just drag it out long enough that Tavares goes away.

Agree 100%. Unfortunately, Tavares is likely impossible to trade, and trading him would be the ultimate egg on the face for Shanahan.

 

[Stephen]

Agree 100%. Unfortunately, Tavares is likely impossible to trade, and trading him would be the ultimate egg on the face for Shanahan.

They should take away Tavares' captaincy and demote him to alternate. It don't think it really matters who holds the captaincy from a functional, day today POV, but it's important to turn the page on something that wasn't good enough. His meek, process-y, self focused exit interview was just not really all that acceptable.

 

[Squiffy]

They should take away Tavares' captaincy and demote him to alternate. It don't think it really matters who holds the captaincy from a functional, day today POV, but it's important to turn the page on something that wasn't good enough. His meek, process-y, self focused exit interview was just not really all that acceptable.

Isn’t that just tossing another log on the dysfunctional team fire narrative though? It’s just not a good look. Can’t be done gracefully by force.

Now, if JT stands up on the first day of camp, calls a presser to announce that he is turning over the captaincy to a newly signed to 8 years Matthews because “he is the future of this team going forward” or some cookie cutter line like that.. that could fly.

 

[LeafGrief]

Isn’t that just tossing another log on the dysfunctional team fire narrative though? It’s just not a good look. Can’t be done gracefully by force.

Now, if JT stands up on the first day of camp, calls a presser to announce that he is turning over the captaincy to a newly signed to 8 years Matthews because “he is the future of this team going forward” or some cookie cutter line like that.. that could fly.

Who cares about the narrative? That's just more player coddling and caring about what the bloggers have to say. This team IS dysfunctional and if they can't look in the mirror to see that and make appropriate changes, then we'll be posting the same arguments in The Core Has to Go - 2024 edition.

This thread is already frustrating in that we're starting to accept that yet again there is going to be no accountability for the players. There is not a shred of leadership to be found in this entire org. Process is just a slogan.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Curious where people stand on dismantling the core now that Florida swept Carolina. They're 12-1 in their last 13 games against the top 3 seeds in the eastern conference. How do you judge a team that faced a team like that? I was all for big changes when they got turfed but I honestly have no idea what to think at this point.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Toronto Maple Leafs News | The Star

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www.thestar.com

It was almost five years ago that Kyle Dubas pulled off what was supposed to be his signature move in Toronto.

The now-exiled Maple Leafs general manager was in his new role for less than two months when he helped convince New York Islanders captain John Tavares to leave the only NHL franchise he knew and come home. Just 32 years of age at the time, Dubas desperately wanted to make a splash as a new GM and came up with a public relations dream — at least on the surface — complete with photo of a young Tavares in his Maple Leafs pyjamas.

Dubas brought back the star Leafs Nation wanted. All these years later, it’s worth revisiting whether it was the one they needed.

I remember working on the free-agent frenzy desk at Sportsnet on July 1 in 2018 and immediately questioning what this move would mean for re-signing Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner. The budding superstars were destined to be the NHL’s next dynamic duo, like Jonathan Toews and Patrick Kane or Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin. But for some reason I got the sense that the chemistry of this team was thrown off.

Sports analytics departments continue to grow as the method becomes one of the primary ways management groups build their teams. Yet it’s still hard for me to believe some teams will lean so heavily on mathematical calculations and statistics when determining whether they have a championship-calibre group that’s ready to fight for the Stanley Cup.

Far too many aspects of success in sports can now be determined by a simple algorithm. But do the mathematicians developing these stats know what it takes to look each other in the eye in the dressing room and demand more on the ice? Call me old-fashioned but that’s real chemistry, and it cannot be undersold or taken for granted.

The Leafs never quite nailed that part this season, with coach Sheldon Keefe unable to find the right mix for his lines and defence pairings. Individually, the Leafs have great talent, but somehow it never meshed. In Keefe’s defence, the Leafs’ chemistry problems started long before he was behind the bench.

It always seemed to me that Tavares’s arrival altered the dynamics of the Leafs’ two young superstars. One of Dubas’s biggest mistakes was bringing in Tavares as a mentor to Matthews and Marner before having the two under contract and putting them in the right pecking order.

It must have been awkward for a young star player like Matthews to view Tavares as the leader when he’s lower on the pay scale, even if it is only $600,000 (U.S.). And, to be fair, Tavares has never tried to be the type of leader he’s not. Going back to his Islanders days, Tavares was never considered to be someone who would take a hands-on approach. His greatest strength as a captain has always been to set an example with his work ethic and ability to produce points. No one can question that in his five years in Toronto, either.

It’s also clear the seven-year, $77-million deal he signed was the major contributor to the demise of any cap space the Leafs had for a balanced roster.

In hindsight, the only chance the signing could have worked properly was if Dubas had stood firmly that no one was to be paid more than the future captain’s $11 million per year. But the Matthews camp had their way with the Leafs, and the dominoes began to fall.

Dubas caved to Matthews’ lofty, unprecedented demands of an $11.6-million average annual value on a five-year deal. Marner followed suit, pushing for more and receiving a $10.9-million AAV. In comparison Nylander, who was signed before all the craziness, is a bargain at $6.9 million a season. One can only imagine the contract expectations from Matthews and Nylander when they’re able to negotiate extensions on July 1.

The question is how do president Brendan Shanahan and his incoming GM fix this?

They might have to start by revisiting the two years remaining on Tavares’s deal. If this is where all the issues started, it may be the place to begin fixing them. It could get ugly quickly for the new GM, who might have to ask the 14-year veteran — who holds a no-move clause and told reporters after his team’s second-round playoff exit to the Florida Panthers that “my intention is to be here” — to think about being somewhere else.

With the ability to have multiple teams pick up portions of his contract, it is possible to increase the Leafs’ cap space by moving a good portion of the $22 million owed to the 32-year-old over the next two seasons. With his point-a-game production, he could clearly help a dozen desperate teams make the playoffs. The freedom of losing that contract would also allow the new GM to reset the pecking order in the dressing room with Matthews, Marner and Nylander at the top.

Instincts are needed in the Toronto head office this off-season, not analytics. There will be no mention of team chemistry in the stats but it’s the secret sauce when it comes to playoff success. Any player who has hoisted the Cup will tell you that.

 

[geo25]

40 days until July 1st. If they are not close, start shopping him. I'm guessing they will get it done easily the same way they did the last time. Willie has a 10 team NMC so he can be more easily traded post July 1st so things are not as bleak if they chose to keep Marner.

I'D trade Marner as well....get rid of the strench altogether...

 

[Trapper]

Curious where people stand on dismantling the core now that Florida swept Carolina. They're 12-1 in their last 13 games against the top 3 seeds in the eastern conference. How do you judge a team that faced a team like that? I was all for big changes when they got turfed but I honestly have no idea what to think at this point.

I maintain our core needs to change. Not just because of Florida, it’s 1 playoff win in 7 years (or 5 for the Tavares group). That’s terrible.

Carolina might have to change something as well. Now they had injuries to Svechnikov and Patches but they’ve stalled at the conference final. We can’t even get there.

Florida changed their core.
Carolina keeps making it to the Conference final.
Leafs still need to prove they can win a 1st round again next year.