The Case For Bringing Back The Core

[Gaberd2608]

Agreed. Trading Nylander is the worst value trade, depending on his potential contract demands (say $9 mil per x 5). Tavares is the ideal trade but he's likely untradeable.

I think it is not that unreasonable. Looking at the info we have, we know Nylander has a certain self worth and he is prepared to sit out if he doesn't get it so we can assume if the Leafs do not give him everything he wants he will set sail for greener pastures. If the priority is signing Matthews, that will need to happen first so they know how much money is left. If the second priority is Marner, then Nylander will probably "need" to take a team friendly deal in order to make it work.

Since we know he will act in his best interest and not the teams and his agent already has a rough relationship with BT, I don't think BT is going to mess around. If a deal cannot be made, he will look to move Nylander.

As for potential returns, I think there are a lof of players who also have 1 year left on their deals who may make sense. Leafs could hypothetically make a trade for Nylander for Hellebuyck. Winnipeg may be in a position to extend Nylander and offer him what he wants more than Toronto since they don't need to deal with Matthews at $12 million +, Tavares at $11 million, or Marner at some absurd number as well.

Hellebuyck may not want to extend in Toronto but even for 1 season, I think having a real goalie will give us a better shot than having a high priced second line winger.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Okay, maybe not all the cards.

However, the fact that a trade before July 1 will mean the returns will probably suck, just shows me that the Leafs' cards are all 3's and 4's

Yup. Dubas did good, didn't he?

Yeah it may be a ploy to move on anyway. 3 years at 14 million...no thanks

Sure is.

 

[MagicalRazor]

I would like to trade Nylander and keep the other 3. I would preferably like to get rid of JT but I can’t see anyone touching his contract without major retention or draining our assets.

i’ve seen reports that Bunting is as good as gone . I would love to try and sign Tyler bertuzzi as a UFA .

Also try and trade for Clayton keller . Both players are gritty and would balance what we have and complement our needs

Bertuzzi Matthews Marner
Knies JT Keller

Would love to see this top 6

 

[StuckOutHere]

I mean, the case is simple. The team is really good as functionally constructed.

 

[arso40]

I think it is not that unreasonable. Looking at the info we have, we know Nylander has a certain self worth and he is prepared to sit out if he doesn't get it so we can assume if the Leafs do not give him everything he wants he will set sail for greener pastures. If the priority is signing Matthews, that will need to happen first so they know how much money is left. If the second priority is Marner, then Nylander will probably "need" to take a team friendly deal in order to make it work.

Since we know he will act in his best interest and not the teams and his agent already has a rough relationship with BT, I don't think BT is going to mess around. If a deal cannot be made, he will look to move Nylander.

As for potential returns, I think there are a lof of players who also have 1 year left on their deals who may make sense. Leafs could hypothetically make a trade for Nylander for Hellebuyck. Winnipeg may be in a position to extend Nylander and offer him what he wants more than Toronto since they don't need to deal with Matthews at $12 million +, Tavares at $11 million, or Marner at some absurd number as well.

Hellebuyck may not want to extend in Toronto but even for 1 season, I think having a real goalie will give us a better shot than having a high priced second line winger.

Nylander is a first line winger name 60 wingers better than him ……………I’ll wait

 

[notDatsyuk]

He was brought in to be part of the core. For the last year or so, he’s been part of the core mainly due to his salary. I never did like that signing. In my mind, you don’t pay that much for a 2nd line center. Now if Matthews and Marner had each signed for a couple million less, then things probably would have been different. Hindsight is always 20/20, but whoever was ultimately responsible for giving out those two contracts absolutely botched what could have been.

He was brought in to be part of the core, but I'm not sure he ever really was.

The worst part is that the horrible overpayment was instrumental in Matthews and Marner getting overpaid, and the term and full NMC means we are completely screwed through the prime of our real core - Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Rielly.

 

[notDatsyuk]

In hindsight JT was a $9m player but he was a UFA and Lou had offered $11mx8=$88m. JT did not ask for $88m over 7 years like some UFAs ask for.

Even so, $11.64 x 5 is how much over 8 years for a player who just reached 1 PPG. IMO it should have been Eichel money for 5 years or McDavid money for 8 years but "we can and we will" thought he was smarter than everybody else.

View attachment 716708

Then getting bent over by Skip, was the cherry on top and we were done.

I've heard that Lou offered $13M x 8 years.

It doesn't matter what he may or may not have offered, as Tavares was not going to re-sign there. Any offer was just a PR move.

 

[Racer88]

Vegas up 3-1 in the series. Looks like Vegas is going to win a cup in only their 6th year while our pack of losers have 1 round win in the last 7 years………..so by all means let’s bring them back for the 8th time. What a joke. It’s going to take a long time to fix this dysfunctional mess that Dubas made…….what a clown

 

[Captain Crunch]

He was brought in to be part of the core, but I'm not sure he ever really was.

The worst part is that the horrible overpayment was instrumental in Matthews and Marner getting overpaid, and the term and full NMC means we are completely screwed through the prime of our real core - Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Rielly.

Oh come on now, Marner and Matthews were greedy and wanted to take all they could. They only thought of themselves

He was brought in to be part of the core, but I'm not sure he ever really was.

The worst part is that the horrible overpayment was instrumental in Matthews and Marner getting overpaid, and the term and full NMC means we are completely screwed through the prime of our real core - Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Rielly.

Well, I guess we will see with their next contract negotiations if they are in it to win it, or in it for the money. It can’t be both!

 

[sittler rules!!!]

I’m sure Chicago with Bedard on an ELC would be interested as well.

Be a good move for the Hawks. Matthews and Beddard as your two core centres, Still have Seth Jones as your stud #1 D and resign Patty Kane as your clutch PP guy and wiley veteran leadership in a much lesser role than before

 

[sittler rules!!!]

Remember when the core four was Bozak, Kessel, JVR and Lupul?

I get that things aren’t perfect and their cap hits suck, but things have improved.

I don’t know if breaking up this core makes sense or not, I’m on the fence, but I do think this core gives us a shot at a cup. How good a shot I’m not sure, but the talent’s there.

Y>es, that is true, that core never won a round. And this core has shown to exponentially more talented and successful by winning "one" round.

 

[Nineteen67]

Further confirming what Chris Johnston reported a couple weeks ago that a few folks were utterly convinced he had made up

I don’t see any quotes, did you?

 

[ToneDog]

Be a good move for the Hawks. Matthews and Beddard as your two core centres, Still have Seth Jones as your stud #1 D and resign Patty Kane as your clutch PP guy and wiley veteran leadership in a much lesser role than before

If they are smart they will tank again, and keep loading up with elite prospects. Do not allow Bedard to rack up points so you get him on a team friendly post ELC contract. They should trade for Murray, just in case Mrazek gets hurt and can't play.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Oh come on now, Marner and Matthews were greedy and wanted to take all they could. They only thought of themselves

Well, I guess we will see with their next contract negotiations if they are in it to win it, or in it for the money. It can’t be both!

Greedy is one thing, but if Dubas had not signed Tavares, or had signed him for about $9M instead of $11M, would Marner have taken $8.9M instead of $10.9M? Would Matthews have taken $9.6M instead of $11.6M?

Certainly their agents couldn't have pointed to JT's contract and used that as a comparable for such overpayments. Of course a competent GM wouldn't have folded that easily, but that's another story.

 

[Buds17]

If they are smart they will tank again, and keep loading up with elite prospects. Do not allow Bedard to rack up points so you get him on a team friendly post ELC contract. They should trade for Murray, just in case Mrazek gets hurt and can't play.

I'd probably look to push forward to some extent if the belief is in Bedard being the 'real deal'. In that sense, I'd aim to sign stopgap/short term UFA deals with players that are interested in playing alongside Bedard. Maybe they could also look to deal an extra 1st in exchange for a longer term piece (as Toronto did in acquiring Andersen)? 'Slow and steady' does seem like the best approach beyond that though.

 

[Buds17]

Greedy is one thing, but if Dubas had not signed Tavares, or had signed him for about $9M instead of $11M, would Marner have taken $8.9M instead of $10.9M? Would Matthews have taken $9.6M instead of $11.6M?

Certainly their agents couldn't have pointed to JT's contract and used that as a comparable for such overpayments. Of course a competent GM wouldn't have folded that easily, but that's another story.

UFAs aren't contractually obligated to run any offers by/through a team like RFAs are (ex. offer sheets). IMO, the approach truly works best when it's the marquee UFA signing that has the most player-friendly contract on the team.

 

[Suntouchable13]

I'd love to see Tre try to build a deep team around the big 4. It's not going to happen. A team like Vegas is way better than Toronto and they don't have as much "talent" as the big 4 forwards. You need to re-balance this team. Look at how a team like Florida game planned against us. And now they are getting dismantled by Vegas, a vastly superior team. How can there be a case for keeping the core 4?

 

[4thline]

Greedy is one thing, but if Dubas had not signed Tavares, or had signed him for about $9M instead of $11M, would Marner have taken $8.9M instead of $10.9M? Would Matthews have taken $9.6M instead of $11.6M?

No.
Matthews wanted all he could get.
Marner wanted to be treated as equal to Matthews.

JT didn't factor into it

 

[MCR74]

Vegas up 3-1 in the series. Looks like Vegas is going to win a cup in only their 6th year while our pack of losers have 1 round win in the last 7 years………..so by all means let’s bring them back for the 8th time. What a joke. It’s going to take a long time to fix this dysfunctional mess that Dubas made…….what a clown

Exactly.

This core is useless. 8th time a charm, my ass.

 

[Nineteen67]

No he doesn't, but if he is traded before July 1st the returns will be far less. Definitely a concern but you can't let him hold us hostage.

The Dubas damage is already done. All that can be done now is mitigate it. The 4 options now are:

1) Trade him before July 1, but the returns are gonna suck.
2) Sign him to way more money than he's worth, thereby crippling the team.
3) Use him as an own rental and let him walk.
4) Sign and trade, but like you said the parameters will be difficult to meet.

I have already stated elsewhere my opinion is they will do 3) because they are cowards and it will make Matthews look like the bad guy.

5 healthy scratch him until they can trade him

 

[Captain Crunch]

Greedy is one thing, but if Dubas had not signed Tavares, or had signed him for about $9M instead of $11M, would Marner have taken $8.9M instead of $10.9M? Would Matthews have taken $9.6M instead of $11.6M?

Certainly their agents couldn't have pointed to JT's contract and used that as a comparable for such overpayments. Of course a competent GM wouldn't have folded that easily, but that's another story.

Oh, I agree about Dubas caving (and I still don’t know where Shanny and MLSE fit in with having given out those contracts), but let’s be clear, Tavares left money on the table to come here (doesn’t mean we should have signed him). But he was a #1 pick, had already been in the league for 7 years when AM and MM started playing, and was the marquee free agent. On the flip side, his career high in points up to that time was 84 points, not bad, but not blow your socks off totals. After their first 3 seasons, AM and MM got their totally one-sided contracts. Why is any of that on JT? These two prima donnas had great regular season numbers, but hadn’t been able to carry their dominance through in the playoffs (and yes, the same could be said for JT).

To me, it was the perfect storm, Dubas being so young and, really, unproven as a GM, signing Tavares when we never should have, Matthews and Marner having such great regular seasons, trading away draft picks for playoff rentals, and probably the most important one for me, not building this team properly for both playoff and longer term success - from the net out! Yes, Covid happened, and that really hurt with the salary cap, but every team felt the effects of that. So, bottom line, who bears the brunt of the blame for where our Leafs are, Dubas, Shanny, MLSE, a combination of these three, or all of them?

So where do they go from here? Was Shanny sincere about bringing the core back? If so, to me, he is the one ultimately responsible for where we are. However, at the same time, you don’t trade one of them simply for the sake of it. It has to make sense. Will AM resign at a team friendly deal, like what MacKinnon did in Colorado (and that was just after having won the Cup)? Will MM do the same thing? Will Nylander? This will tell us if they really want to win or not! These next few weeks will tell us what the next few years are going to be like. Get your seatbelt on!

 

[Dekes For Days]

if Dubas had not signed Tavares, or had signed him for about $9M instead of $11M, would Marner have taken $8.9M instead of $10.9M? Would Matthews have taken $9.6M instead of $11.6M?

It wouldn't have changed anything, because UFA contracts have nothing to do with post-ELC contracts.

 

[Boxscore]

but let’s be clear, Tavares left money on the table to come here

Because the Islanders were willing to overpay so their franchise player didn't walk for nothing. And the Sharks were acting in foolish desperation and shortly after paid an injured Erik Karlsson 11.5 as a free agent, ultimately watching their team crumble before their eyes due to spending like drunken sailors.

Just because those two teams were foolish enough to offer Tavares even more, the Leafs should not be vindicated for moderately-to-massively overpaying for a luxury in Tavares on the open market. Especially when the Leafs supposedly had leverage because Tavares wanted to play in Toronto.

Not only was the Tavares deal an overpayment, but the halo effect it had on signing our own young players was detrimental. Like I said in real time when it happened -- the Tavares deal was a disaster before the ink dried. Shanny and Dubas just couldn't help themselves. They wanted to be the smartest guys in the room and make the big splash as opposed to sound hockey decisions.

 

[notDatsyuk]

No.
Matthews wanted all he could get.
Marner wanted to be treated as equal to Matthews.

JT didn't factor into it

I'm sure they wanted it, but would they have been able to demand or get it if Tavares hadn't been given so much first? At worst, his contract certainly made it a lot easier for their agents.

If Dubas hadn't signed Tavares, and the highest salary on the team was Marleau at $6.25M instead of JT at $11M, would Matty and Mitch have gotten as much?

 

[notDatsyuk]

It wouldn't have changed anything, because UFA contracts have nothing to do with post-ELC contracts.

So Dubas could have said "you're post ELC and JT was UFA, so there's no way you are getting anywhere near what we gave him"?

Wow! That makes his deals to them even worse!