The Case For Bringing Back The Core

[notDatsyuk]

sports have never seen a signing never live up to his contract this badly, and also destroy a promising young teams future as badly as John Tavares did for the leafs

He ruined the team by coming here. He was never even close to living up to his value, years 1-2 he was a low end 1C or high end 2C. Years 3-4 he was just a 2C. This year he was a low end 2C

Next year I won’t be surprised if he ends with 50 points

If he hadn't spent all his time on either one of the best PPs (half his points) or with one or the other of the two of the five of six best RW (half his points), he probably wouldn't have ended up with 50 points last year.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Holy f*** this argument is already coming up

The loser mentality is running strong on here already. I guess 2019 was a great run too, ditto for 2021.

Then if you think about it, we were runner up to the runner up like 3 times, that should give us a Stanley cup right there.

Instead of “swapping a few players” this team needs an identity change, and it starts with one of the core 4, and probably one of Matthews or Marner. Also it’s not assign blame, it’s obvious to anyone with eyes it was their fault. The core 5 was the reason we lost, especially Matthews Marner nylander and Tavares. They single-handedly, along with time to time Samsonov implosions made the series a quick one

When the Islanders, two years in a row, made it to the conference finals, and lost the the Cup champions, and were Tampa's toughest opponent (according to the Tampa players), apparently it meant nothing.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

When the Islanders, two years in a row, made it to the conference finals, and lost the the Cup champions, and were Tampa's toughest opponent (according to the Tampa players), apparently it meant nothing.

Key word: conference finals
We made 1 second round and got dealt away with quickly and people act like that’s a positive. It was alright the first or second time….but it’s been seven years now and I honestly couldn’t give a f*** about who we lost to, just that we lost

 

[notDatsyuk]

The best timing on changing up the core would be the entry draft, with the mostly likely player traded being Nylander.

The biggest boat anchor around the Leafs competitive neck is having 3 X $11 mil players on the same team.

With now Leafs former GM Dubas painting the organization into a corner with all his NMC and no trade clauses, its more than likely the core does remain in tact for next year, particularly without a GM at present. The more likely way the core 4 might be broke up is by Matthews or Nylander leaving via free agency after the next season.

That said once the Leafs have a real and qualified GM in place I wouldn't be surprised if he was able to find more playoff success building a better team to compete for the Cup, even with the constraints of a top heavy salary cap limitations.

And that's the problem - trading Nylander doesn't fix the anchor of 3x11M. He and Rielly are the ones not (currently) overpaid.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Core 4

Top 10 1 year
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Top 10 2 year
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Top 10 3 year
View attachment 716027

Core 4 look like marner, Matthews, Nylander, Rielly.

It is. Some people like to include Tavares just because of the money - "core four make half the cap".

He's not, and I don't think ever really was, part of the 'core', despite what Dubas and Keefe and their reporters say.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Sometime you see a team struggle for years and than make the leap forward one giant leap for mankind.

 

[Mess]

And that's the problem - trading Nylander doesn't fix the anchor of 3x11M. He and Rielly are the ones not (currently) overpaid.

Agreed 100%

JT contract and his declining speed and play are the biggest problem of the big 3 $11 club but his NMC makes him bullet proof. You would deal him away in a heartbeat and not miss a nights sleep as Cap Hell began with his signing.

Marner is by far the worst overpaid contract of the 3 by $2-3 million above comparables as Matthews is only comparable nonsense. However if you are trying to get Matthews re-signed and you can't do that officially until July 1st then trading away his pal Mitch in late June at the draft might mean losing both. Marner's own NMC kicking in July 1st prevents a GM from locking up Matthews first and then dealing Marner second.

Treliving has been dealt a terrible hand here by the former GM and really hard to see how he can really get out of this until 2 years from now JT contract ends. IMO

You're right you can always trade Nylander but he is the least of the core 4 cap problems.

 

[Trapper]

Agreed 100%

JT contract and his declining speed and play are the biggest problem of the big 3 $11 club but his NMC makes him bullet proof. You would deal him away in a heartbeat and not miss a nights sleep as Cap Hell began with his signing.

Marner is by far the worst overpaid contract of the 3 by $2-3 million above comparables as Matthews is only comparable nonsense. However if you are trying to get Matthews re-signed and you can't do that officially until July 1st then trading away his pal Mitch in late June at the draft might mean losing both. Marner's own NMC kicking in July 1st prevents a GM from locking up Matthews first and then dealing Marner second.

Treliving has been dealt a terrible hand here by the former GM and really hard to see how he can really get out of this until 2 years from now JT contract ends. IMO

You're right you can always trade Nylander but he is the least of the core 4 cap problems.

So far but if Simba gets paid large, the Hyenas will be right behind.
The Cap was constructed out of whack and the shorter term deals ensured it probably stays that way.

 

[ULF_55]

Agreed 100%

JT contract and his declining speed and play are the biggest problem of the big 3 $11 club but his NMC makes him bullet proof. You would deal him away in a heartbeat and not miss a nights sleep as Cap Hell began with his signing.

Marner is by far the worst overpaid contract of the 3 by $2-3 million above comparables as Matthews is only comparable nonsense. However if you are trying to get Matthews re-signed and you can't do that officially until July 1st then trading away his pal Mitch in late June at the draft might mean losing both. Marner's own NMC kicking in July 1st prevents a GM from locking up Matthews first and then dealing Marner second.

Treliving has been dealt a terrible hand here by the former GM and really hard to see how he can really get out of this until 2 years from now JT contract ends. IMO

You're right you can always trade Nylander but he is the least of the core 4 cap problems.

So that brings up the question.

Does Matthews really hitch his wagon to marner?

So if Matthews takes one for the team and marner doesn't how does that play out?

Do you think Matthews trusts Paul?

 

[IPS]

Marner is by far the worst overpaid contract of the 3 by $2-3 million above comparables as Matthews is only comparable nonsense. However if you are trying to get Matthews re-signed and you can't do that officially until July 1st then trading away his pal Mitch in late June at the draft might mean losing both. Marner's own NMC kicking in July 1st prevents a GM from locking up Matthews first and then dealing Marner second.

Not true at all. In terms of pure value to the team Marner is far better than Tavares, playoffs included. If JT's $11M could be magically removed you could remodel the whole team into a contender very quickly.

 

[Captain Crunch]

It is. Some people like to include Tavares just because of the money - "core four make half the cap".

He's not, and I don't think ever really was, part of the 'core', despite what Dubas and Keefe and their reporters say.

He was brought in to be part of the core. For the last year or so, he’s been part of the core mainly due to his salary. I never did like that signing. In my mind, you don’t pay that much for a 2nd line center. Now if Matthews and Marner had each signed for a couple million less, then things probably would have been different. Hindsight is always 20/20, but whoever was ultimately responsible for giving out those two contracts absolutely botched what could have been.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Not true at all. In terms of pure value to the team Marner is far better than Tavares, playoffs included. If JT's $11M could be magically removed you could remodel the whole team into a contender very quickly.

It’s a shame that all contracts are based on just regular season performance. Hopefully their next contract will take into account how they can be neutered in the playoffs. Also, we will see if they’re truly here to win, or to get paid!

 

[Mess]

Not true at all. In terms of pure value to the team Marner is far better than Tavares, playoffs included. If JT's $11M could be magically removed you could remodel the whole team into a contender very quickly.

The Tavares signing and for that $11 mil as a luxuary addition was the Leafs biggest mistake. His contract is why both Matthews and Marner make $11 mil because of Leafs internal salary cap and both the later being better than JT and more valuable to the team.

Of the core 4 Tavares is certainly the weakest link.

 

[Trapper]

The Tavares signing and for that $11 mil as a luxuary addition was the Leafs biggest mistake. His contract is why both Matthews and Marner make $11 mil because of Leafs internal salary cap and both the later being better than JT and more valuable to the team.

Of the core 4 Tavares is certainly the weakest link.

Yes and unfortunately we are on our 3rd round of contracts, usually what guys are getting paid after they’ve won and depleted most of the depth in the organization.

We’ve skipped the winning and went straight to deplete and pay.

 

[ToneDog]

The Tavares signing and for that $11 mil as a luxuary addition was the Leafs biggest mistake. His contract is why both Matthews and Marner make $11 mil because of Leafs internal salary cap and both the later being better than JT and more valuable to the team.

Of the core 4 Tavares is certainly the weakest link.

In hindsight JT was a $9m player but he was a UFA and Lou had offered $11mx8=$88m. JT did not ask for $88m over 7 years like some UFAs ask for.

Even so, $11.64 x 5 is how much over 8 years for a player who just reached 1 PPG. IMO it should have been Eichel money for 5 years or McDavid money for 8 years but "we can and we will" thought he was smarter than everybody else.

Then getting bent over by Skip, was the cherry on top and we were done.

 

[Mess]

Yes and unfortunately we are on our 3rd round of contracts, usually what guys are getting paid after they’ve won and depleted most of the depth in the organization.

We’ve skipped the winning and went straight to deplete and pay.

Agreed

Matthews should be on his 8 year term at $11.634 and we would not be here as he would only have played out his 4 RFA years at this point.
Marner should have been re-signed a year earlier between the team offer of $7.5 mil X 8 and his ask Draisaitl deal of $8.5 X 8.

AM and JT went straight from their ELC to their 3rd contracts and Leafs missed out on the 2nd bridge deals when they were RFA and cost controllable to set up their Cup competitive window.

If John Tavares and his Leaf PJs wanted to come home then he should have come in around $8.5-9 mil or taken more money to play anywhere else but his hometown. Remember the year earlier it was Stamkos that considered coming home, but Lou Lam held the responsibility line on his contract and in the end Stammer returned to TB for $8.5 mil.

These players clever agents played a greenhorn GM hard and took advantage of the situation financially.

Our new GM has been put in a really tough spot and ideally he would find a way to break out of this Cap Hell scenario that will only get worse by tossing good money after bad on next contracts for players proven they can't win.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

You didn't address the Matthews side of the equation at all. Think he's going to sign an extension with just anyone that wants him when he can go wherever he want in one more season?

If he doesn't want to extend with the Leafs, how many teams do you think he'd want to sign with now, knowing that he can field offers as a UFA after next season?

This line of discussion started with niagra bill saying just trade him to Arizona if he doesn't sign by June 22nd. It's not that simple.

Dubas painted us into a corner with his signing bonuses, and full NMC. It all may work out, but don't kid yourself, Matthews holds all the cards already.

No he doesn't, but if he is traded before July 1st the returns will be far less. Definitely a concern but you can't let him hold us hostage.

The Dubas damage is already done. All that can be done now is mitigate it. The 4 options now are:

1) Trade him before July 1, but the returns are gonna suck.
2) Sign him to way more money than he's worth, thereby crippling the team.
3) Use him as an own rental and let him walk.
4) Sign and trade, but like you said the parameters will be difficult to meet.

I have already stated elsewhere my opinion is they will do 3) because they are cowards and it will make Matthews look like the bad guy.

 

[hockeywiz542]

NHL offseason trade board 2.0: The latest on the Jets, Leafs, Flyers and more — and how it impacts the market

The latest scuttlebutt from around the league and a new top 30 trade targets with two big offseason trades already in the books.

theathletic.com

Maple Leafs looking to keep Core 4 intact

We are still early in the Treliving era, but indications so far are that there’s a desire to keep the Core Four together if contract extensions can be figured out — especially for Auston Matthews, but also for William Nylander.

On Matthews, it’s pretty straightforward. Getting him signed is the top priority, and there’s no doubt that bringing No. 34’s old Arizona hockey idol into the fold was a nice bonus in hiring Shane Doan to the front office.

The Maple Leafs hired Shane Doan to their front office, the team announced Friday.

Doan was most recently the Arizona Coyotes’ chief hockey development officer before agreeing to become a special adviser to Leafs general manager Brad Treliving.https://t.co/C76hit0WU9

— The Athletic NHL (@TheAthleticNHL) June 9, 2023

All things being equal, Treliving would prefer to keep Mitch Marner, too. As he said in his introductory news conference, it’s hard to replace elite talent. You can never predict if another team will pick up the phone and make the kind of offer a GM never saw coming, but let’s put it this way: Treliving isn’t bringing Marner’s name up with teams.

As we said, Treliving wants to re-sign Nylander, an unrestricted free agent in 2024, as well. But of interest here is some agent history. Nylander’s rep, Lewis Gross, also represents Johnny Gaudreau, whose exit from Calgary left tire tracks on Treliving when he was GM there. So suffice it to say: Treliving isn’t going to allow a song and dance to play out all season with Nylander, who we now have at No. 10 on the trade board. It’s “extension or else” in all probability.

 

[Boxscore]

And that's the problem - trading Nylander doesn't fix the anchor of 3x11M. He and Rielly are the ones not (currently) overpaid.

Agreed. Trading Nylander is the worst value trade, depending on his potential contract demands (say $9 mil per x 5). Tavares is the ideal trade but he's likely untradeable.

 

[Boxscore]

In hindsight JT was a $9m player but he was a UFA and Lou had offered $11mx8=$88m. JT did not ask for $88m over 7 years like some UFAs ask for.

Even so, $11.64 x 5 is how much over 8 years for a player who just reached 1 PPG. IMO it should have been Eichel money for 5 years or McDavid money for 8 years but "we can and we will" thought he was smarter than everybody else.

View attachment 716708

Then getting bent over by Skip, was the cherry on top and we were done.

Tavares was a max $9 mil player but the "reasonable" contract would have been $9.5, especially for a guy who ballyhooed about the whole "coming home" thing. The year after the Leafs signed Tavares for $11, the Bolts signed Kucherov for $9.5 x8 (after winning the Hart and scoring 126 pts). Tavares @ 11 mil was a travesty before the ink dried.

 

[Menzinger]

NHL offseason trade board 2.0: The latest on the Jets, Leafs, Flyers and more — and how it impacts the market

The latest scuttlebutt from around the league and a new top 30 trade targets with two big offseason trades already in the books.

theathletic.com

Maple Leafs looking to keep Core 4 intact

We are still early in the Treliving era, but indications so far are that there’s a desire to keep the Core Four together if contract extensions can be figured out — especially for Auston Matthews, but also for William Nylander.

On Matthews, it’s pretty straightforward. Getting him signed is the top priority, and there’s no doubt that bringing No. 34’s old Arizona hockey idol into the fold was a nice bonus in hiring Shane Doan to the front office.

The Maple Leafs hired Shane Doan to their front office, the team announced Friday.

Doan was most recently the Arizona Coyotes’ chief hockey development officer before agreeing to become a special adviser to Leafs general manager Brad Treliving.https://t.co/C76hit0WU9

— The Athletic NHL (@TheAthleticNHL) June 9, 2023

All things being equal, Treliving would prefer to keep Mitch Marner, too. As he said in his introductory news conference, it’s hard to replace elite talent. You can never predict if another team will pick up the phone and make the kind of offer a GM never saw coming, but let’s put it this way: Treliving isn’t bringing Marner’s name up with teams.

As we said, Treliving wants to re-sign Nylander, an unrestricted free agent in 2024, as well. But of interest here is some agent history. Nylander’s rep, Lewis Gross, also represents Johnny Gaudreau, whose exit from Calgary left tire tracks on Treliving when he was GM there. So suffice it to say: Treliving isn’t going to allow a song and dance to play out all season with Nylander, who we now have at No. 10 on the trade board. It’s “extension or else” in all probability.

Further confirming what Chris Johnston reported a couple weeks ago that a few folks were utterly convinced he had made up

 

[al secord]

Treliving has never had a better core and likely will never manage a better core. Yet some expect him to trade pieces away?

Seems more feasible that he'll want to work with them

 

[egd27]

No he doesn't, but if he is traded before July 1st the returns will be far less. Definitely a concern but you can't let him hold us hostage.

The Dubas damage is already done. All that can be done now is mitigate it. The 4 options now are:

1) Trade him before July 1, but the returns are gonna suck.
2) Sign him to way more money than he's worth, thereby crippling the team.
3) Use him as an own rental and let him walk.
4) Sign and trade, but like you said the parameters will be difficult to meet.

I have already stated elsewhere my opinion is they will do 3) because they are cowards and it will make Matthews look like the bad guy.

Okay, maybe not all the cards.

However, the fact that a trade before July 1 will mean the returns will probably suck, just shows me that the Leafs' cards are all 3's and 4's

 

[hockeyes]

For a business with little to no incentive to actually win anything, it's a pretty obvious they will make the easy choice and keep the core together unless one of them forces their way out.

 

[darrylsittler27]

If reports are true about Matthews ask.... Man he's a funny guy. In what world does less points than Nylander in a contract year get you $14M on a three year deal?

I don't care if they're just shooting high as a negotiation tactic, that's just insulting. If this is true time to replenish the prospect pool starting with a Mathews trade. The sore 4 era is over.

Yeah it may be a ploy to move on anyway. 3 years at 14 million...no thanks