Blue Jays Discussion: That's it: Jays win, but don't get help from TB/WSH & are eliminated from playoff contention

[The Nemesis]

Would be great if JD and management could sit down and hash out their differences in the off-season. Shapiro was very complimentary of JD on the broadcast when he came up to the plate.

That said, im not taking on Donaldson's remaining 51.5M unless Minnesota agrees to take on Grichuk's remaining $20.5M. Even then i still might ask Minnesota to retain more money.

Twins need starters so some variation of Stripling, Thornton and/or Kay could be added to the deal. If they want an infielder, perhaps Smith could be included.

I'd give them Thornton just to take him away from Charlie.

 

[phillipmike]

I'd give them Thornton just to take him away from Charlie.

I’d give them Charlie too. Charlie for Baldelli.

 

[The Nemesis]

Is give them Charlie too. Charlie for Baldelli.

 

[kb]

So when then? I feel like we have been and gone past cautious at this point. The vaccine works, it's time people start trusting it and if everyone in the building is vaccinated there is no logical reason to not fill it other then health theater.

If anyone actually bothered to look at the real data anywhere close to how they do for sports on these boards.......

But I do hope for the fan's sake they can bump capacity. Nothing better than the thunderous roar of a crowd.

 

[Discoverer]

If anyone actually bothered to look at the real data anywhere close to how they do for sports on these boards.......

But I do hope for the fan's sake they can bump capacity. Nothing better than the thunderous roar of a crowd.

Please, enlighten us.

 

[Discoverer]

Deeeeeeep breaths...

 

[as Pure as Evil]

Deeeeeeep breaths...

if there was ever a time to protest a finish of the game that would have been it. i have no reason to think he couldn't have walked the next batter

 

[Discoverer]

if there was ever a time to protest a finish of the game that would have been it. i have no reason to think he couldn't have walked the next batter

Yeah, he was really struggling with his control that whole inning. Jake Lamb isn't very good, but he is pretty good at not chasing pitches outside the zone.

 

[as Pure as Evil]

Yeah, he was really struggling with his control that whole inning. Jake Lamb isn't very good, but he is pretty good at not chasing pitches outside the zone.

not only that but by the rules definition it would have merit since the game was on the line

 

[Discoverer]

not only that but by the rules definition it would have merit since the game was on the line

Well as far as official protests go I'm pretty sure they couldn't have since you can only protest rule interpretation/application. As horrible and game-changing as these calls were, you can't protest an ump's judgement.

 

[Canada4Gold]

 

[tmlms13]

if there was ever a time to protest a finish of the game that would have been it. i have no reason to think he couldn't have walked the next batter

MLB will laugh at your protest. You can only protest a rules application, and rules applications are something you can challenge, and if you are out of challenges you can request the crew check on a rule by calling New York. They will usually do that voluntarily if there is any doubt about a rule.

I think the last successful protest was the Pine Tar Incident, where George Brett's bat should have just been taken out of play and not an out.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Outside fan coming in peace (honest!), but since this is a Toronto Blue Jays thread I figured I'd ask for those who follow baseball a lot more closely.

Why isn't Vladdy Guerrero the runaway favorite for AL MVP? Is it because people are putting a lot of importance on Ohtani also pitching well? I get the uniqueness of the situation, but is that what's outweighing Guerrero having better numbers across the board offensively?

 

[Dr.Funk]

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Outside fan coming in peace (honest!), but since this is a Toronto Blue Jays thread I figured I'd ask for those who follow baseball a lot more closely.

Why isn't Vladdy Guerrero the runaway favorite for AL MVP? Is it because people are putting a lot of importance on Ohtani also pitching well? I get the uniqueness of the situation, but is that what's outweighing Guerrero having better numbers across the board offensively?

Vladdy is better offensively, but Ohtani's pitching is way more valuable than Guerrero at first base. Overall it's close in my opinion, but Ohtani just has a better overall impact on the game.

 

[Muston Atthews]

if I was Kiermaier I wouldn’t have given it back either. That being said he should be getting a fastball in the backside tonight for getting caught. Jays won’t do it because Montoyo is a bitch

 

[The Nemesis]

Outside fan coming in peace (honest!), but since this is a Toronto Blue Jays thread I figured I'd ask for those who follow baseball a lot more closely.

Why isn't Vladdy Guerrero the runaway favorite for AL MVP? Is it because people are putting a lot of importance on Ohtani also pitching well? I get the uniqueness of the situation, but is that what's outweighing Guerrero having better numbers across the board offensively?

What Vladdy is doing is amazing, but Ohtani is doing something that's never been done before. He's basically been an all-star caliber player on both sides of the ball in the same season. People like to talk about how Babe Ruth pitched and hit, but the reality is that he never did both well at the same time. He was a good pitcher, then he started hitting full time and became a great hitter but that occurred as his pitching output worsened, dwindled, and stopped.

It's the combo of uniqueness and overall performance level that is pushing Ohtani up the ballots. It's not like he's hitting .260 with 20 HR while pitching like a #4/#5 starter.

AL ranks as of right now (pitcher stat ranks are limited to starters only with >120 IP)
HR - 2nd
RBI - 13th (disclaimer: the Angels are a trashbag team playing much of the year without Trout
SB - 5th (I didn't even realize he was this good)
OBP - 14th
wRC+ - 2nd
fWAR (hitter only) - 11th (remember he takes a massive demerit in the calculation on account of being a DH)

Wins - 22nd
ERA - 9th
FIP - 13th
K% - 5th
opponent Avg - 3rd
WHIP - 8th
fWAR (pitcher only) - 17th (largely down to workload. Almost every pitcher ahead of him except Carlos Rodon has pitched 20+ more innings. If you were to scale everyone's pace to consistent innings he would be somewhere around 10th)

If you combine Ohtani's hitter fWAR (4.5) with his pitcher fWAR (2.7) he clocks in at a total of 7.2, which puts him almost half a win above Vladdy (6.8) in the overall standings.

So he's pretty much a top 10 hitter in the AL and he would be about a top 10 pitcher in the AL if he had made like 5-8 more starts to put him on the level with his peers (knowing that the Angels have been super extra cautious with him as a pitcher because of his hitter value)

That's the pitch for Ohtani for MVP. I do think that it should probably be closer than it is in terms of people saying that Vlad has no chance or little chance because of the historic nature of Ohtani's performance, but I also think Ohtani has a better case than some of the denouncers tend to credit him for when his performance is framed as "he's only getting lauded for uniqueness" when it's really "he's getting lauded for uniqueness at a level we've literally never seen before in the history of the sport"

 

[phillipmike]

if I was Kiermaier I wouldn’t have given it back either. That being said he should be getting a fastball in the backside tonight for getting caught. Jays won’t do it because Montoyo is a bitch

Mandani just eluded that perhaps the Jays will throw at Kiermayer and guess who is on the mound “Alek Manoah”.

 

[theaub]

If you're going to hit him at least use someone who you don't care about getting suspended.

Also frankly a significantly better revenge move is to put up a 5 spot in the first here.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Vladdy is better offensively, but Ohtani's pitching is way more valuable than Guerrero at first base. Overall it's close in my opinion, but Ohtani just has a better overall impact on the game.

What Vladdy is doing is amazing, but Ohtani is doing something that's never been done before. He's basically been an all-star caliber player on both sides of the ball in the same season. People like to talk about how Babe Ruth pitched and hit, but the reality is that he never did both well at the same time. He was a good pitcher, then he started hitting full time and became a great hitter but that occurred as his pitching output worsened, dwindled, and stopped.

It's the combo of uniqueness and overall performance level that is pushing Ohtani up the ballots. It's not like he's hitting .260 with 20 HR while pitching like a #4/#5 starter.

AL ranks as of right now (pitcher stat ranks are limited to starters only with >120 IP)
HR - 2nd
RBI - 13th (disclaimer: the Angels are a trashbag team playing much of the year without Trout
SB - 5th (I didn't even realize he was this good)
OBP - 14th
wRC+ - 2nd
fWAR (hitter only) - 11th (remember he takes a massive demerit in the calculation on account of being a DH)

Wins - 22nd
ERA - 9th
FIP - 13th
K% - 5th
opponent Avg - 3rd
WHIP - 8th
fWAR (pitcher only) - 17th (largely down to workload. Almost every pitcher ahead of him except Carlos Rodon has pitched 20+ more innings. If you were to scale everyone's pace to consistent innings he would be somewhere around 10th)

If you combine Ohtani's hitter fWAR (4.5) with his pitcher fWAR (2.7) he clocks in at a total of 7.2, which puts him almost half a win above Vladdy (6.8) in the overall standings.

So he's pretty much a top 10 hitter in the AL and he would be about a top 10 pitcher in the AL if he had made like 5-8 more starts to put him on the level with his peers (knowing that the Angels have been super extra cautious with him as a pitcher because of his hitter value)

That's the pitch for Ohtani for MVP. I do think that it should probably be closer than it is in terms of people saying that Vlad has no chance or little chance because of the historic nature of Ohtani's performance, but I also think Ohtani has a better case than some of the denouncers tend to credit him for when his performance is framed as "he's only getting lauded for uniqueness" when it's really "he's getting lauded for uniqueness at a level we've literally never seen before in the history of the sport"

Thanks. I guess it's just a bit of bad luck for Vladdy, then, that he happened to have a monster year the same year Ohtani is making history.

 

[Dr.Funk]

LMAO. Sent the bat boy. Jays look like morons here

 

[TheTotalPackage]

This is Kiermaier’s fault…why…how…?

Tough break for the Jays. But another old school thought of mine is why do these players all carry the scouting report in their back pocket, wrist or inside the hat?

 

[phillipmike]

If you're going to hit him at least use someone who you don't care about getting suspended.

Also frankly a significantly better revenge move is to put up a 5 spot in the first here.

Send Charlie out to pitch.

 

[zeke]

We put a late scare in them game 1, they do the same to us game 2.

Still a great playoffs-type win in a hugely important game. Great fight.

Tommorrow looks like a dwelling bullpen game. Winning a clutch series in the Horrordome would obviously be huge not just for the playoffs run, but for the potential first round matchup too.

 

[Maestro84]

If semien walks we should trade for Donaldson.

Gotta stop looking into the past, he's not the JD of 2015-2017 anymore and they're younger more versatile players out there that fit this team