Teams expecting suspensions as 2018 Hockey Canada investigation concludes (update 7/13) up to 8 players from Team Canada to be named

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Jan 6, 2010
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Asshole move to do it on a Friday but I can totally see it.
??? This way I can focus a full 48 hours of my free time/leisure on the politics of hockey rather than just the 8 I'd have on a regular weekday.

24 hours in a day is 8 for work, 8 for sleep, and 8 for seething/making the world a better place.

Weekends are free reign on making the world a better place online
 

Gregor Samsa

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This particular style of incident is sort of in its own messed up realm

Messed up grey area situations where one party feels they did not consent and the other party feels that the first party did happen way more often than they should. Not the kind of situation where a person can be successfully prosecuted but one where one party ends up traumatized anyways.

More work needs to go into teaching enthusiastic and continuing consent. Probably (and I sure hope), the vast majority people would not enjoy being with a partner who was not actively participating. For example, there are still too many people who will take the absence of a verbal no as consent despite the other party being actively disengaged and not at all participatory where the persons body language is clearly stating the no they haven’t actually verbalized. Also too many people who seem to ignore that consent can be revoked at any time during the act and if someone says stop that’s the end of it even if both parties had originally been having a good consensual time
Yeah. I think a big part of it is in the vastly different ways that men and women see sex. For men, it is a prize earned, many have wounded pride because of rejection and feel their manhood is attacked. For women, it is just something that happens. Once they hit puberty they notice they attract attention and they are baptized into the world of sexuality. Such views of sex are embedded in culture. There used to be Ancient Greek civilizations where it was frowned upon and a disgrace if a man had sex before he ever fought in battle. Things have really changed and many men derive their whole ego and manhood on idea of sex. Books can be written on the subject of men vs women and their views on sexuality

As far as different types of consent go, it is my understanding that a very high profile rape case was a woman who consented to go with the man but he put it where she didn’t want it. That is undoubtedly rape but such a thing will be impossible to prove. You also get the friendzoned guy who finally makes a move on his crush and when rejected, he gets pissy and the whole “you’ll… him but not me!?!”, he is placated and afterwards the girl is unsure if she is raped or not. The guy thinks she was not. Once again, impossible to prove in court. Guys are often terrible using discretion and it somehow needs to be taught better
 
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Gregor Samsa

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Yeah no, this type of thing happens in all facets. It’s not a junior hockey issue, it’s a societal issue.
I never said they didn’t happen in other facets. I said I think they are more prevalent in the way passed out girls being raped are more common in fraternities. If you don’t think junior hockey culture is different from the average 15-18 year old, then we have to agree to disagree
 
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Prairie Habs

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??? This way I can focus a full 48 hours of my free time/leisure on the politics of hockey rather than just the 8 I'd have on a regular weekday.

24 hours in a day is 8 for work, 8 for sleep, and 8 for seething/making the world a better place.

Weekends are free reign on making the world a better place online

Is the notion that rapists should be punished really a political one? I don't watch every debate, but it doesn't really come up.
 

Three On Zero

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I never said they didn’t happen in other facets. I said I think they are more prevalent in the way passed out girls being raped are more common in fraternities. If you don’t think junior hockey culture is different from the average 15-18 year old, then we have to agree to disagree
It absolutely isn’t, it’s a North American culture issue that’s prevalent in all sporting associations
 
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Irishguy42

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f*** the players who took part in this. I hope the NHL suspends them, even if the players were not NHLPA members at that time.

f***'em. Not appropriate behavior for past/present/fulture NHLPA/NHL members, let alone human beings in general no matter the age.

If you at any point side with the players, you are on the wrong side, morally, and are a terrible human being, end of story.
 

Gregor Samsa

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It absolutely isn’t, it’s a North American culture issue that’s prevalent in all sporting associations
I think there are fundamental differences between junior hockey and the other sports, the small towns, the traveling, the education, the affluence of the parents as just a few. I think a 16 year old hockey player may be a bigger swinging dick in Red Deer than the 4 star high school quarterback in NYC committed to Alabama. Jocks aren’t known for their education, but i especially question the type of education that junior hockey players get. Hockey is expensive and parents will often be more affluent and have more sway in their small town. Small towns don’t have as much going on and a 16 year old can be a bigger celebrity than the baseball player in Miami. A stronger dude bro culture and good ole boy culture seems ingrained in hockey compared to other sports.

Junior hockey is built differently than other amateur sports. You are welcome to think there isn’t a problem with it, but I disagree. We aren’t going to change each other’s minds so it’s pointless to go on
 

Finlandia WOAT

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Kyrie Irving - NBA - Nets - suspended a month or so for public antisemitism - no charges filed

Kuznetsov - NHL - Capitals - suspended a few games for being in a video with cocaine - no charges filed

Zeke Elliott - NFL - Cowboys - suspended six games for domestic violence - no criminal charges

These are off the top of my head.
Ja Morant of the NBA's Memphis Grizzlies was just suspended for 25 games for shooting a Tik Tok in his car where he flashed a gun for half a second. No charges. Perfectly legal in Tennesse.

Fwiw he's a superstar/top 10 player/best player on an elite team
 

MVP Zacha

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"Cases without an arrest or a charge? For an offence that didnt happen at work?"

Above is my original question.

So really your point was not analogous to what we are taking about...
Not sure what you are implying here but I am just relaying my experience in situations similar to this.
Oh, and I appreciate the job offer but I am very happy doing what I do. I also appreciate you telling me how you work for a company worth billions and that compares to the NHL.
 

Ghost of Jody Hull

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Ja Morant of the NBA's Memphis Grizzlies was just suspended for 25 games for shooting a Tik Tok in his car where he flashed a gun for half a second. No charges. Perfectly legal in Tennesse.

Fwiw he's a superstar/top 10 player/best player on an elite team

Different situation, though. Nobody is saying that a player cannot be suspended for an off-ice/field/court issue without a criminal charge.

But the example you used (and the Irving one as well) was not a suspension based on an allegation which the player denied. It was based on something they did in plain sight, for all to see. There was no ambiguity as to whether they did it or not.

This is quite different. These players are being accused of something that they deny.

A better example would be the allegation that Ja Morant assaulted a teen at a pick-up game. Morant denied that he assaulted him. The NBA didn't suspend him for that incident despite the allegation, which has since become more credible.

A more recent example is Anthony Lamb, who was just accused of a rape in 2019. The allegation is being investigated but is unproven. The NBA hasn't suspended Lamb. The accuser didn't sue Lamb directly, but named him in a civil suit against the University of Vermont for mishandling the reporting of the assault. It's fairly similar to how the HC incident came to light.

The Warriors released this statement:

“Anthony is not a defendant in this recent lawsuit and, to our knowledge, he has never been charged with any wrongdoing in any legal case,” a rep for the Warriors told the Athletic in a statement. “Prior to signing Anthony in September, we did our due diligence with the NBA and his prior teams, as we do with all players. If any new information comes to light, we will certainly evaluate it and act accordingly.”
 
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mlzy

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f*** the players who took part in this. I hope the NHL suspends them, even if the players were not NHLPA members at that time.

f***'em. Not appropriate behavior for past/present/fulture NHLPA/NHL members, let alone human beings in general no matter the age.

If you at any point side with the players, you are on the wrong side, morally, and are a terrible human being, end of story.
Another guilty until proven innocent kind of guy! I guess I’m pleading guilty to being on the wrong side, morally and I guess I’m a terrible human being but…the story is far from over! I’m a little confused how this person claims to have been too intoxicated to give consent but seems to know a lot of details?

I would also like to know why she refused to talk to law enforcement or investigators? If I was ever raped i wouldn’t stop until the attacker was arrested!

One of my friends who played semi pro was caught up in a situation like this before but luckily was found not guilty because video surfaced later proving they were in fact innocent. Reading all these posts I’m not sure how many people even realize how often this kind of a thing happens in junior hockey, a lot of girls see dollar signs attached to these kids and throw themselves at them! The term to describe these girls in the hockey culture is puck bunnies!

If they are charged and found guilty by all means charge them, put them in jail, but there should also be very strict punishments for those that cry rape when in fact they consented!
 

Nemesis Prime

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Another guilty until proven innocent kind of guy! I guess I’m pleading guilty to being on the wrong side, morally and I guess I’m a terrible human being but…the story is far from over! I’m a little confused how this person claims to have been too intoxicated to give consent but seems to know a lot of details?

I would also like to know why she refused to talk to law enforcement or investigators? If I was ever raped i wouldn’t stop until the attacker was arrested!

One of my friends who played semi pro was caught up in a situation like this before but luckily was found not guilty because video surfaced later proving they were in fact innocent. Reading all these posts I’m not sure how many people even realize how often this kind of a thing happens in junior hockey, a lot of girls see dollar signs attached to these kids and throw themselves at them! The term to describe these girls in the hockey culture is puck bunnies!

If they are charged and found guilty by all means charge them, put them in jail, but there should also be very strict punishments for those that cry rape when in fact they consented!
Your post is why victims generally don't come forward and talk with police after they've been violated.
 

GeoRox89

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Another guilty until proven innocent kind of guy! I guess I’m pleading guilty to being on the wrong side, morally and I guess I’m a terrible human being but…the story is far from over! I’m a little confused how this person claims to have been too intoxicated to give consent but seems to know a lot of details?

I would also like to know why she refused to talk to law enforcement or investigators? If I was ever raped i wouldn’t stop until the attacker was arrested!

One of my friends who played semi pro was caught up in a situation like this before but luckily was found not guilty because video surfaced later proving they were in fact innocent. Reading all these posts I’m not sure how many people even realize how often this kind of a thing happens in junior hockey, a lot of girls see dollar signs attached to these kids and throw themselves at them! The term to describe these girls in the hockey culture is puck bunnies!

If they are charged and found guilty by all means charge them, put them in jail, but there should also be very strict punishments for those that cry rape when in fact they consented!
Waiting for all the facts to come out before deciding is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Yikes to the bolded though

You could not possibly know how you would react unless/until something happened. Traumatized people can and sometimes do react in all sorts of ways that seem to not make sense from the outside. Two different victims of the same trauma might react completely differently

Are we going to get a follow up post explaining that any physically and/or sexually abused children who are/were too scared to tell anyone were not actually abused because they didn’t report it? Or do we have an age cut off for when certain responses to traumatic situations are or are not real?
 

Tad Mikowsky

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Another guilty until proven innocent kind of guy! I guess I’m pleading guilty to being on the wrong side, morally and I guess I’m a terrible human being but…the story is far from over! I’m a little confused how this person claims to have been too intoxicated to give consent but seems to know a lot of details?

I would also like to know why she refused to talk to law enforcement or investigators? If I was ever raped i wouldn’t stop until the attacker was arrested!

One of my friends who played semi pro was caught up in a situation like this before but luckily was found not guilty because video surfaced later proving they were in fact innocent. Reading all these posts I’m not sure how many people even realize how often this kind of a thing happens in junior hockey, a lot of girls see dollar signs attached to these kids and throw themselves at them! The term to describe these girls in the hockey culture is puck bunnies!

If they are charged and found guilty by all means charge them, put them in jail, but there should also be very strict punishments for those that cry rape when in fact they consented!

Chalk this one in my original post for “Victim Shaming”

Just a god awful description of women here.
 

Ninety7

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Another guilty until proven innocent kind of guy! I guess I’m pleading guilty to being on the wrong side, morally and I guess I’m a terrible human being but…the story is far from over! I’m a little confused how this person claims to have been too intoxicated to give consent but seems to know a lot of details?

I would also like to know why she refused to talk to law enforcement or investigators? If I was ever raped i wouldn’t stop until the attacker was arrested!

One of my friends who played semi pro was caught up in a situation like this before but luckily was found not guilty because video surfaced later proving they were in fact innocent. Reading all these posts I’m not sure how many people even realize how often this kind of a thing happens in junior hockey, a lot of girls see dollar signs attached to these kids and throw themselves at them! The term to describe these girls in the hockey culture is puck bunnies!

If they are charged and found guilty by all means charge them, put them in jail, but there should also be very strict punishments for those that cry rape when in fact they consented!

Your friend was part of a gang rape? Maybe you should re evaluate your friendships.

Also equating this situation to “puck bunnies lol” is kind of disturbing.
 

MOGlLNY

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Not even gonna think about digging through this toxic thread to find it. Can someone show me where it’s said they’re allegedly going to be releasing 8 names?
 

Mike C

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I think if those were our sons coming into the hotel room we would want them to call a cab and take the lady home safely or call an ambulance if she’s too intoxicated. Didn’t happen - bad judgement. But the absolute conviction of some folks that we are dealing with gang rapists here although nobody knows anything is astonishing. I remember Duke lacrosse. Let’s see it play out before we’re baying for blood.
Duke accuser--Crystal Mangum. Currently in prison for stabbing her live in boyfriend to death
 
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pcruz

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f*** the players who took part in this. I hope the NHL suspends them, even if the players were not NHLPA members at that time.

f***'em. Not appropriate behavior for past/present/fulture NHLPA/NHL members, let alone human beings in general no matter the age.

If you at any point side with the players, you are on the wrong side, morally, and are a terrible human being, end of story.
Is this a thing now?

Make up a narrative and then express moral outrage over that manufactured narrative....

Has anyone defended the alleged actions?

No.

Has anyone downplayed the seriousness of the allegations?

No.

You say: "f*** the players who took part in this."

What is it exactly that you know took place?
Not what you believe or have been told by someone else, but actually know.
Who are the players that you know were involved?
Can you name them, and would you be willing to do that in a court of law or at a police station?
If so, did you? I'm sure the authorities would have made great use out of that.

If you can't answer yes to these, or give substantiated answers, you don't know shit about what did or didn't happen.


Imagine being responsible for another incident like this:


I bet you'd feel just peachy, no?
 

Mike C

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Another guilty until proven innocent kind of guy! I guess I’m pleading guilty to being on the wrong side, morally and I guess I’m a terrible human being but…the story is far from over! I’m a little confused how this person claims to have been too intoxicated to give consent but seems to know a lot of details?

I would also like to know why she refused to talk to law enforcement or investigators? If I was ever raped i wouldn’t stop until the attacker was arrested!

One of my friends who played semi pro was caught up in a situation like this before but luckily was found not guilty because video surfaced later proving they were in fact innocent. Reading all these posts I’m not sure how many people even realize how often this kind of a thing happens in junior hockey, a lot of girls see dollar signs attached to these kids and throw themselves at them! The term to describe these girls in the hockey culture is puck bunnies!

If they are charged and found guilty by all means charge them, put them in jail, but there should also be very strict punishments for those that cry rape when in fact they consented!
So to be clear, I should teach my kid not to rape but let him know that it's perfectly OK to surround himself with friends who feel right about getting some girl drunk and participating in group sex as long as she says it's kosher

That the gist of your moral platform?
 

AnInjuredJasonZucker

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Feb 21, 2014
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The correct approach for all the wrong reasons.

Whether people are afforded the benefit of not being considered guilty a priori, should not depend on the results of previous and completely unrelated cases where some were initially considered guilty and subsequently found not gulty; but it should be a completely unalienable basic human right that we all are granted by virtue of being human.

It doesn't mean that people can't be guilty of crimes, but that everyone must be given the benefit of needing to be proven guilty instead of having to prove innocence.

The Amber Heard debacle and others like that should have no bearing at all in any criminal case going forward, on the basis of whether to hold the accused guilty until proven otherwise.
The previous poster's examples are even worse than that. The British court found that calling Depp a domestic abuser was fair comment. For Ghomeshi, the justice went out of his way to point out that the ruling was in no way was an exoneration. Both cases are tremendous examples of why you can't rely on the justice system to reflect the realities of violence against women.
 
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