Teams expecting suspensions as 2018 Hockey Canada investigation concludes (update 7/13) up to 8 players from Team Canada to be named

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iCanada

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You know what, I'd rather not spend my evening thinking about this thread. I wish you all health and happiness.

I understand and respect that. The thing that breaks my heart though honestly is that some people can't just turn this thread and it's subject matter off for their mental health, because they've lived it against their choice.

It's there every night, every morning, and whenever they get enough free time for their mind to wander. And for me, that's why I'll always be in these threads trying to change this culture, because anything I can do to help make it less likely people don't have to live through that... Even arguing about this crap... Is something that is worth doing.
 

Ghost of Jody Hull

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Again, he was outright fired before ever being charged and well before a judge accepted his guilty plea. Again, Jared is a bad example for the "due process" crowd to cite.

Fogle is a bad example on all counts. His crime was, in comparison, black and white. Before even being charged, there wasn't much doubt about his guilt. There was hard evidence and he never had a "side" of the story to present.

The type of alleged crime that took place here is much more (as much as people might not like to hear it) ambiguous. The reality of it is, both of these statements are more likely than not true:

a) The victim didn't consent to the acts and was assaulted
b) The accused believed, and still believe, that the victim was consenting to the acts

This isn't uncommon with sexual assault cases, especially when dealing with teenagers and alcohol. It hardly ever plays out like it does on Law and Order SVU, where the perpetrator knows they're committing a heinous crime as they're committing it.

That's why these cases are so incredibly difficult to investigate, prosecute and why the entire process of detailing every single thing that happened over and over again can be so traumatizing.
 

iCanada

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Fogle is a bad example on all counts. His crime was, in comparison, black and white. Before even being charged, there wasn't much doubt about his guilt. There was hard evidence and he never had a "side" of the story to present.

The type of alleged crime that took place here is much more (as much as people might not like to hear it) ambiguous. The reality of it is, both of these statements are more likely than not true:

a) The victim didn't consent to the acts and was assaulted
b) The accused believed, and still believe, that the victim was consenting to the acts

This isn't uncommon with sexual assault cases, especially when dealing with teenagers and alcohol. It hardly ever plays out like it does on Law and Order SVU, where the perpetrator knows they're committing a heinous crime as they're committing it.

That's why these cases are so incredibly difficult to investigate, prosecute and why the entire process of detailing every single thing that happened over and over again can be so traumatizing.

Regarding b)... No one who truly believes their partner consented forces them to shower and film a video saying they consented prior to them being allowed to leave.

I'm fairly cognizant of the fact that any relationship or attempt at relations involves communication that is required to be learned, and part of learning means making mistakes. That being said... If you take several clear steps to cover your tracks? That's you saying you know you did something wrong, and you are trying to hide it. Honestly its obstruction of justice; these men knew that they were breaking the law and took steps to ensure they didn't see any consequences.

Frankly that's f***ed up, and deserves to be punished.
 

Troy McClure

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You're forgetting the first part of most statutory laws' offense clauses:

That the burden of proof rests on the accuser to prove beyond a doubt (of variable degree depending on the statute and severity) that an offense has been committed.

All these people talking about rapists and whatnot, have already adjudged that the crime was committed, not merely allegedly.

In the case of Tom Brady: that the footballs were deflated and tampered with was determined by the investigation. The question was about Tom Brady's level of involvement and knowledge of the infraction.

That the offense was actually committed was proven beyond doubt during the investigation.

In the case of DUI suspensions, the charging information by the relevant police force will have the statement that a preliminary test was conducted and that the person was found to be reasonably expected to be under the influence.
Normally, subsequent tests are done, and the results of these are included in the charging information.

That something was done is, at this point, a forgone conclusion.

Whether the player can successfully fight off the charges afterwards, or not, the league has some legal standing to suspect wrongdoing.

In the event that the player is found not guilty, the league can defend its position by having relied on the charging information of the police.

In the cases of domestic violence, there is the charging information by the police based on the testimony of the victim.

The leagues can and do cite the charging information in order to defend their position in suspending a player.

Again, in the event that the player is found not guilty, the league has a reasonable basis for having suspended the player in the first place.



In this case, there is no information that the NHL can use in order to base the suspension on. If there isn't enough evidence that the league has been given access to (which is a major violation of due process until the police investigation is completed), then they go out on a long and fragile limb in suspending players and linking them to a heinous crime.

At the same time, the rights of the accused do not outweigh the rights of the victims to not be subject to this type of criminal activity.

It was not taken seriously enough by the alleged victim, and then worse than that by the police force.

That there was a civil suit and that it was settled out of court is despicable in my opinion.

These matters should be taken seriously, with significant resources for the investigatory bodies, and with extremely significant penalties for convictions, and also for proven false accusations. They should also be placed on absolute gag orders and have all parties' personal identifying information cloaked until a decision is made.

At that point, civil suits could be sought and in the event of guilt, the names of the convicted be released for all to know.
This is a long rundown of how you want pro leagues to operate, but they don't follow your rules. Leagues suspend players all the time without criminal convictions in hand.
 
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Ghost of Jody Hull

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Regarding b)... No one who truly believes their partner consented forces them to shower and film a video saying they consented prior to them being allowed to leave.

And if that actually took place and investigators substantiate it, in that the accused forced the victim to shower and coerced her into making that statement on video, that'll be part of the evidence that the police use to charge the players. And it'd be a strong and compelling piece of evidence, that's for sure.

But you and me, on this forum right now, have no idea if that's what happened.
 
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Gregor Samsa

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For all the “due process” posters, I get that you don’t want to set an unfair precedent. But my question is do you think there is a problem with the culture in junior hockey? If, no, then no point in going further. If yes, how do we fix it? It is already extremely difficult to prove sex crimes beyond a reasonable doubt, and many go unpunished. If the only way to change junior hockey culture is through the court of law, not much is going to happen. Nothing has been happening legally so why expect it to change? If the culture needs to be changed and the legal system isn’t doing it, then something else has to be done
 

Ghost of Jody Hull

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This is a long rundown of how you want pro leagues to operate, but they don't follow your rules. Leagues suspend players all the time without criminal convictions in hand.

As far as i can tell, nobody is saying that a criminal conviction needs to be in hand. Most people commenting have said the NHL should wait on police to file charges. A charge is still a long way from a conviction, but it indicates reasonable grounds to believe that someone may have committed the crime.

I can't think of another situation in which a player was suspended by a league after facing an allegation that was not accompanied with formal charges being filed.

Can you?

*And I know... maybe leagues shouldn't need to wait on charges to be filed. But historically, they have.
 
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Ghost of Jody Hull

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For all the “due process” posters, I get that you don’t want to set an unfair precedent. But my question is do you think there is a problem with the culture in junior hockey? If, no, then no point in going further. If yes, how do we fix it? It is already extremely difficult to prove sex crimes beyond a reasonable doubt, and many go unpunished. If the only way to change junior hockey culture is through the court of law, not much is going to happen. Nothing has been happening legally so why expect it to change? If the culture needs to be changed and the legal system isn’t doing it, then something else has to be done

How do we fix it? That's an incredibly long and nuanced conversation. Unfortunately, suspending 5 players, which may very well be warranted, won't go all that far in making a dent in the problem.

It's also not just a junior hockey culture problem, it's a young person in 2023 problem. And it's incredibly complicated. We live in a world where adults don't talk to kids about sex, boundaries or consent (because it's hard and uncomfortable), at the same time that kids are bombarded with warped views of what sex, consent and pleasure are on social media and in porn that they can access on their phones.

Fixing the problem starts with parents and educators. Everyone should lobby their school boards to start teaching real sex education as soon as grade 6 or 7. And by real, I mean real. What healthy sex looks like. What consent is. How consent is communicated or withdrawn. Etc.

But that's a conversation beyond the scope of this thread.
 
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Gregor Samsa

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How do we fix it? That's an incredibly long and nuanced conversation. Unfortunately, suspending 5 players, which may very well be warranted, won't go all that far in making a dent in the problem.

It's also not just a junior hockey culture problem, it's a young person in 2023 problem. And it's incredibly complicated. We live in a world where adults don't talk to kids about sex, boundaries or consent (because it's hard and uncomfortable), at the same time that kids are bombarded with warped views of what sex, consent and pleasure are on social media and in porn that they can access on their phones.

Fixing the problem starts with parents and educators. Everyone should lobby their school boards to start teaching real sex education as soon as grade 6 or 7. And by real, I mean real. What healthy sex looks like. What consent is. How consent is communicated or withdrawn. Etc.

But that's a conversation beyond the scope of this thread.
I agree with the gist of this but not the young person problem. Sure, this stuff happens elsewhere but it seems more prevalent in junior hockey. I think it is akin to the frat/sorority issues pre ~2010. I think the issue was in the frat and sorority culture, and not young people
 

Ghost of Jody Hull

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I agree with the gist of this but not the young person problem. Sure, this stuff happens elsewhere but it seems more prevalent in junior hockey. I think it is akin to the frat/sorority issues pre ~2010. I think the issue was in the frat and sorority culture, and not young people

It seems more prevalent because the public pays attention to junior hockey. So when an allegation like this is made and implicates NHL players, it's on TSN.

When it happens at a freshman party attended by a bunch of future middle-managers who you've never heard of, it's not on TSN.

Again, not saying that these players shouldn't be charged and suspended if the investigation substantiates what many believe happened, but that's not going to solve the problem.
 
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Gregor Samsa

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It seems more prevalent because the public pays attention to junior hockey. So when an allegation like this is made and implicates NHL players, it's on TSN.

When it happens at a freshman party attended by a bunch of future middle-managers who you've never heard of, it's not on TSN.

My partner is a high-school teacher and counsellor... it's a young person problem.
I heard of a lot of colleges coming down hard on frat programs and parties. I’d you don’t think there is a specific culture that develops in certain cliques and segments of society, whatever. Most young people know what consenting is and what deviant behavior is. It’s kind of a lame solution to “teach the young children about sex education and consenting”. Maybe that will work in 15 years, but I want to know how things are going to be fixed right now
 
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Ghost of Jody Hull

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I heard of a lot of colleges coming down hard on frat programs and parties. I’d you don’t think there is a specific culture that develops in certain cliques and segments of society, whatever. Most young people know what consenting is and what deviant behavior is. It’s kind of a lame solution to “teach the young children about sex education and consenting”. Maybe that will work in 15 years, but I want to know how things are going to be fixed right now

They won't be.

Suspending or not suspending these players won't move the needle in fixing the things you want fixed.

They may very well end up suspended, charged, and even convicted. But that won't change "hockey culture".
 

Gregor Samsa

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They won't be.

Suspending or not suspending these players won't move the needle in fixing things.
Punishment is a deterrent. I’m guessing you have an issue with those 3 kids sitting on I think it’s Yager’s junior team and the fines levied against the team itself?
 

Ghost of Jody Hull

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Punishment is a deterrent. I’m guessing you have an issue with those 3 kids sitting on I think it’s Yager’s junior team and the fines levied against the team itself?

I don't think the reason for those suspensions has been released. I'd assume they were all suspended because they deserved to be suspended. Not because suspending them would send a message to other players to not do similar things, especially since no one really knows what similar things would be.
 

GeoRox89

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I agree with the gist of this but not the young person problem. Sure, this stuff happens elsewhere but it seems more prevalent in junior hockey. I think it is akin to the frat/sorority issues pre ~2010. I think the issue was in the frat and sorority culture, and not young people
This particular style of incident is sort of in its own messed up realm

Messed up grey area situations where one party feels they did not consent and the other party feels that the first party did happen way more often than they should. Not the kind of situation where a person can be successfully prosecuted but one where one party ends up traumatized anyways.

More work needs to go into teaching enthusiastic and continuing consent. Probably (and I sure hope), the vast majority people would not enjoy being with a partner who was not actively participating. For example, there are still too many people who will take the absence of a verbal no as consent despite the other party being actively disengaged and not at all participatory where the persons body language is clearly stating the no they haven’t actually verbalized. Also too many people who seem to ignore that consent can be revoked at any time during the act and if someone says stop that’s the end of it even if both parties had originally been having a good consensual time
 
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Gregor Samsa

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I don't think the reason for those suspensions has been released. I'd assume they were all suspended because they deserved to be suspended. Not because suspending them would send a message to other players to not do similar things, especially since no one really knows what similar things would be.
We just disagree on punishment being a deterrent I guess

“I’d assume they were suspended because they deserve to be suspended”

Exactly. Doesn’t matter if there are convictions or not
 
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Troy McClure

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I can't think of another situation in which a player was suspended by a league after facing an allegation that was not accompanied with formal charges being filed.

Can you?

*And I know... maybe leagues shouldn't need to wait on charges to be filed. But historically, they have.
Kyrie Irving - NBA - Nets - suspended a month or so for public antisemitism - no charges filed

Kuznetsov - NHL - Capitals - suspended a few games for being in a video with cocaine - no charges filed

Zeke Elliott - NFL - Cowboys - suspended six games for domestic violence - no criminal charges

These are off the top of my head.
 

Melrose Munch

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Don't know all the details but given his arrest and being charged seems like a reasonable outcome.

Is he even disputing it?

Had the police investigated and not arrested or charged him and then 5 years later there were accusations, I'd probably think they should wait for an arrest or charge before firing/suspending him.

I think there is a misconceptions here. I and the vast majority of posters who are sceptical of the accusations do not approve of rape or other criminal activity.

If arrested and charged, I think they should be suspended and possibly have their contracts voided. If convicted I think they should be banned from the league and spend time in jail.

I also believe in due process and other principals of justice that punishing people based on a simple accusations spits in the face of.

I happy to stand with minds like Maimonides, Cicero and Blackstone rather than HF posters like @Troy McClure, @Jeune Poulet or @Melrose Munch.

Is it really that difficult to take a charitable view of someone else's opinion?

Yes, it is. This is not a courtroom, this is a message board. You're not a juror. This is a crime, not a big hit or a line brawl. This is about how we treat our female fans if WWE respects them. You're not a defence lawyer.

At the least, the posters in your highlighted sentence are contrarians in every thread about social issues in hockey. They definitely didn't take the Blackhawks' situation seriously. Or the Aliu allegations. Or the crap that goes on in junior hockey.
 
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Ghost of Jody Hull

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Kyrie Irving - NBA - Nets - suspended a month for public antisemitism - no charges filed

Kuznetsov - NHL - Capitals - suspended a few games for being in a video with cocaine - no charges filed

Zeke Elliott - NFL - Cowboys - suspended six games for domestic violence - no criminal charges

These are off the top of my head.

Elliott would definitely be the best example of a player being suspended for an allegation. The incident he was involved in was investigated by police, they declined to press charges, but he was still suspended after the NFL conducted their own investigation.

The main difference would be that Elliott was accused by name. It wasn't, "member of the Cowboys accused of domestic violence, and then the NFL identified that member to be Elliott and suspended him".

What Irving did wouldn't have warranted a police investigation and wasn't an allegation... He did it and everyone knew he did it. It was a stupid decision a long list of stupid decisions. He didn't have a "side" of the story and wasn't accused of something that he says he didn't do.

Kuznetsov, I believe, tested positive for cocaine, and admitted he used cocaine. He wasn't accused of using cocaine. There was no ambiguity as to whether he broke the rules or not.

So the last two are quite different.

But you're right, the Elliott case shows there is precedent.
 

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I agree with the gist of this but not the young person problem. Sure, this stuff happens elsewhere but it seems more prevalent in junior hockey. I think it is akin to the frat/sorority issues pre ~2010. I think the issue was in the frat and sorority culture, and not young people
Yeah no, this type of thing happens in all facets. It’s not a junior hockey issue, it’s a societal issue.
 
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