Teams expecting suspensions as 2018 Hockey Canada investigation concludes (update 7/13) up to 8 players from Team Canada to be named

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eco's bones

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Perhaps there is some bs to this but I pretty much doubt it. They have the criminal investigation, they have the victim, they have the location and almost probably hotel surveillance. Probably have DNA evidence. They have the players involved phones/messaging......they have 7/8 names and there's specificity to that. It's him, him, him etc. not him, him, him etc. NHL GM's might know who's being discussed as well or at least if that's a reason some are sitting out in limbo without a contract. They may even have witnesses from before and after who could testify to things that were said before or bragged about later.
 

Nikolajs Sillers

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Silky Johnson

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Your position is to continue to defend these players when everything is suggesting they're guilty of what they're accused of.

My position is that they've been accused of horrible crimes, have not denied being involved in it yet, had a lawsuit against for $3.5M, Hockey Canada paid out $2.9M that year

The reason Hockey Canada settled is to hide the identity of the players and hide their shitty operation from the public.

Hockey Canada literally paid out nearly $3M dollars that year, you're trying to suggest that it could have been for other small cases that nobody has ever heard of, and not the massive $3.5M dollar lawsuit that is headlining everywhere.

What a joke.

Actually my position is that under the current situation, its prudent to reserve judgement. I value fundamental concepts of justice.

As to the case. Nothing you have inferred has proven how much money the case was settled for.

There is a reason that reporters have not said it...because it has not been disclosed.

Your 2.9 million figure means nothing. Hockey Canada has been sued many times. Are you sure that figure is not from other cases that year? Are you sure that some of that figure is settlements of previous cases where payments are made over time?

The answer is, you have no idea.

You seem to embody what a large number of posters on this site are offended by - virtue signaling through making judgements when you are not in command of the facts

It's possible the case was settled for millions, its also possible it wasn't. You or I don't know.

Even if it was settled, it was settled by HC and not the players. Your, and many others posters, histerical shrieking lends credence to the hypothesis that they would settle regardless of guilt - under the current political climate facts don't matter. Just feelings. And you guys really feel that anyone accused is guilty.
 

Silky Johnson

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A not guilty verdict doesn't necessarily mean the jury believed that the defendant didn't commit the crime, but that the prosecution failed in proving it BARD. A juror could be 90% sure the defendant is guilty but that 10% uncertainty leads to a not guilty vote.

On the other hand, since a jury only declares guilty or not guilty, unless you interview each individual juror, you don't know if they sided with not guilty because they thought the defendant was innocent or prosecution failed to prove it BARD


Yes. But it doesn't change that you are presumed innocent as a default.

That can be only changed through a guilty verdict.

Ergo, if there is not a guilty verdict you are innocent by default.
 
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squashmaple

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He isn't describing women, he is specifically referring to a sub-culture that some girls in Canada are involved in of their own agency. Only sexist here is you pal.
He is absolutely describing women, since "puck bunies" are women; it's just that either you're arguing in bad faith (more likely) or you lack the reading comprehension skills to realize that the word "all" doesn't have to be in that sentence. Are you saying that when those women whom hockey players misogynistically refer to as "puck bunnies" opt into that lifestyle they don't get to be called women anymore? Your gradeschool "I know you are but what am I? nyah nyah" is very telling. There's definitely a sexist here and it's not the person you quoted.

My source? I'm a woman in this space.
 

pcruz

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Another example for you then since you think you need proof of a violation. The NFL suspended Tom Brady for deflate gate based on the violation being “more probable than not” of occurring without having any proof that he was involved.

I already spoke about Tom Brady's suspension.

That the footballs were deflated was never in question.

Deflating footballs is against the rules of the NFL, so an offense had been committed before attribution was attempted to be doled out to any individuals.


Has a crime been determined in the Hockey Canada case yet?
 

Silky Johnson

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The presumption of innocence is a foundational principle in many legal systems around the world, including Canada's. It means that when someone is accused of a crime, they are considered innocent until they are proven guilty in a court of law. This principle places the burden of proof on the prosecution, which must convince a judge or jury "beyond a reasonable doubt" of the defendant's guilt. If there is any reasonable doubt, then the defendant must be acquitted.

The presumption of innocence serves several critical functions.

1. Protection of Individual Rights: This principle protects individuals from wrongful conviction. It is based on the belief that it is better to let a guilty person go free than to imprison an innocent one.

2. Burden of Proof: It puts the responsibility on the prosecution to prove guilt, rather than on the accused to prove innocence. This upholds fairness in the legal system as the state typically has more resources than the defendant.

3. Mitigating Power Imbalance: The state, with its significant resources and powers, could be oppressive to individuals. The presumption of innocence works to balance this power.

4. Confidence in the Legal System: Upholding the principle of presumption of innocence helps maintain public confidence in the justice system. It reflects society's commitment to fairness and justice.

When a defendant is found "not guilty" in a court of law, it means that the prosecution has not been able to overcome the presumption of innocence. The defendant remains in the state they were before the trial began: presumed innocent. However, a "not guilty" verdict does not positively affirm that a person is "innocent" of the alleged crime. It simply means that their guilt was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

In other words, "not guilty" means the legal system continues to presume them innocent, because the burden of proof for their guilt was not met. A "not guilty" verdict is not a declaration of innocence—it is a declaration that the evidence was insufficient to overturn the presumption of innocence.
 

Tad Mikowsky

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He isn't describing women, he is specifically referring to a sub-culture that some girls in Canada are involved in of their own agency. Only sexist here is you pal.

Yep, not sexist at all to assume the victim was a puck bunny.

I don’t think you have a f***ing clue what sexism is if you don’t think that’s sexist.
 

Perfect_Drug

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for those of us who never even heard of this until noticing the thread just now, is there a cliff notes version of what happened?
World Junior Team Canada team allegedly gang-raped a girl in a hotel.

It was followed by "Team Canada investigated themselves, and we found we did nothing wrong".

That resulted in a MASSIVE public outcry.

Then Hockey Canada (partially funded by the government) used Canadian taxpayer dollars to try and settle this. Canadians were livid so the government got involved with like 3rd party investigators n shit.

So then sponsors pulled out of the WJHC, and basically it ran at a massive loss, with almost no attendance.


SO fast-forward to today? Lots of that Team Canada WJHC are regular NHLers and will likely be named in a criminal suit. A lot of that team have been cleared as they weren't even there (Cale Makar, Jordan Kyrou, Carter Hart, Rob Thomas) but a bunch of NHL regulars have NOT been cleared.
 
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Snotbubbles

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Oct 25, 2007
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I already spoke about Tom Brady's suspension.

That the footballs were deflated was never in question.

Deflating footballs is against the rules of the NFL, so an offense had been committed before attribution was attempted to be doled out to any individuals.


Has a crime been determined in the Hockey Canada case yet?

For the love of God man, for the purposes of the NHL suspending a player, a crime doesn't have to be committed.

Here is another example from the NFL, this one is probably more on point for this case: Why the NFL can suspend Cowboys' Ezekiel Elliott even though he wasn't charged with a crime
 

pcruz

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The presumption of innocence is a foundational principle in many legal systems around the world, including Canada's. It means that when someone is accused of a crime, they are considered innocent until they are proven guilty in a court of law. This principle places the burden of proof on the prosecution, which must convince a judge or jury "beyond a reasonable doubt" of the defendant's guilt. If there is any reasonable doubt, then the defendant must be acquitted.

The presumption of innocence serves several critical functions.

1. Protection of Individual Rights: This principle protects individuals from wrongful conviction. It is based on the belief that it is better to let a guilty person go free than to imprison an innocent one.

2. Burden of Proof: It puts the responsibility on the prosecution to prove guilt, rather than on the accused to prove innocence. This upholds fairness in the legal system as the state typically has more resources than the defendant.

3. Mitigating Power Imbalance: The state, with its significant resources and powers, could be oppressive to individuals. The presumption of innocence works to balance this power.

4. Confidence in the Legal System: Upholding the principle of presumption of innocence helps maintain public confidence in the justice system. It reflects society's commitment to fairness and justice.

When a defendant is found "not guilty" in a court of law, it means that the prosecution has not been able to overcome the presumption of innocence. The defendant remains in the state they were before the trial began: presumed innocent. However, a "not guilty" verdict does not positively affirm that a person is "innocent" of the alleged crime. It simply means that their guilt was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

In other words, "not guilty" means the legal system continues to presume them innocent, because the burden of proof for their guilt was not met. A "not guilty" verdict is not a declaration of innocence—it is a declaration that the evidence was insufficient to overturn the presumption of innocence.


This is all true.

However, there is a giant piece of the puzzle missing in this whole matter.

There hasn't been an information presented to a court by an investigative body yet.

I cant comprehend the thought process of people who think the following:

I don't know who, and I don't even know exactly of what, but he is guilty!


The people allegedly involved in this investigation haven't been named, and neither have their actions.

World Junior Team Canada team allegedly gang-raped a girl in a hotel.

It was followed by "Team Canada investigated themselves, and we found we did nothing wrong".

That resulted in a MASSIVE public outcry.

Then Hockey Canada (partially funded by the government) used Canadian taxpayer dollars to try and settle this. Canadians were livid so the government got involved with like 3rd party investigators n shit.

So then sponsors pulled out of the WJHC, and basically it ran at a massive loss, with almost no attendance.


SO fast-forward to today? Lots of that Team Canada WJHC are regular NHLers and will likely be named in a criminal suit. A lot of that team have been cleared as they weren't even there (Cale Makar, Jordan Kyrou, Carter Hart, Rob Thomas) but a bunch of NHL regulars have NOT been cleared.

I don't believe you understand the meaning of the word "likely".

It's entirely likely that not a single criminal information is brought forth in this case, unfortunately.


You're missing the civil suit part.

Hockey Canada was being sued by the girl's family/representatives on the accusation of her being raped.

Contemporaneously, she went to the police and did what we want victims to do: report wrongdoing.

At some point, she decided to stop cooperating with the police.
The police then decided not to pursue further with the investigation.

At another point, she decided to accept a monetary compensation package in exchange for not pursuing the case in civil court.

I know it can be inferred that these 2 actions are related, but it appears that she stopped cooperating with the police well before a settlement was achieved, so it doesn't appear that it was a quid-pro-quo.

What it does do, is send a message to potential perpetrators out there: if you do find yourself embroiled in a case like this, offer some money and you'll get off without legal injury.

That's the exact wrong message to send, both to victims past and future, and to society as a whole.

In the justice system, yes. Actual guilt =/= legal guilt.

Are you advocating for people to dole out punishment to people without any form of fact-checking or determination of the guilt of the people involved?
 

pcruz

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For the love of God man, for the purposes of the NHL suspending a player, a crime doesn't have to be committed.

Here is another example from the NFL, this one is probably more on point for this case: Why the NFL can suspend Cowboys' Ezekiel Elliott even though he wasn't charged with a crime
Let me say this again:

I agree with you

A crime doesn't have to be committed.

But something has to have happened, and it has to be substantiated.



I understand that reading is hard sometimes, and that some things are subtle, but I'm trying to dumb this down as much as I can.


The Tom Brady story had a bunch of factors to it:

1) The footballs were tampered with
2) Tom Brady was accused of having been involved in the tampering of the footballs
3.......n) Whatever else was investigated


If the NFL hadn't been able to prove that point 1 was true (that the footballs had been tampered with), they wouldn't have been able to suspend Tom Brady for (having been involved in something that the NFL hadn't even known about) what he was associated with.
 
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Bocephus86

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To my knowledge no one has been suspended yet. Why are we arguing about if the NHL is able to suspend players at this point? If the report concludes that it is likely that plays xyz were involved in this, even if charges are not filed, than the threshold (goalpost) that keeps being moved to now 'if something happened' will have been met. Therefore if the NHL suspends these players for participating in this because it happened then the threshold has been met and this entire defense is moot.
 

Troy McClure

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Mar 12, 2002
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Let me say this again:

I agree with you

A crime doesn't have to be committed.

But something has to have happened, and it has to be substantiated.



I understand that reading is hard sometimes, and that some things are subtle, but I'm trying to dumb this down as much as I can.


The Tom Brady story had a bunch of factors to it:

1) The footballs were tampered with
2) Tom Brady was accused of having been involved in the tampering of the footballs
3.......n) Whatever else was investigated


If the NFL hadn't been able to prove that point 1 was true (that the footballs had been tampered with), they wouldn't have been able to suspend Tom Brady for (having been involved in something that the NFL hadn't even known about) what he was associated with.
Bur what difference are you trying to create between Brady’s suspension and what will happen to these Team Canada players?

Brady was suspended following an investigation and a report stating what the investigators believe happened. That’s going to be exactly the same here. When Team Canada players are suspended, the NHL will have an investigation and a report to point to.
 

bambamcam4ever

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The other important thing here is that the justice system has to follow certain procedures and regulations to collect evidence- like they can't use improperly obtained recordings as admissible evidence. The NHL has no such limitations in ascertaining actual guilt
 
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pcruz

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For the love of God man, for the purposes of the NHL suspending a player, a crime doesn't have to be committed.

Here is another example from the NFL, this one is probably more on point for this case: Why the NFL can suspend Cowboys' Ezekiel Elliott even though he wasn't charged with a crime


Here are some excerpts of the memo sent to Elliot:

"In....the week of July 16, 2016, you were allegedly involved in multiple instances of physical violence against Ms. Tiffany Thompson...
On July 22, 2016, Ms. Thompson reported these incidents to the Columbus Police Department, which initiated an investigation...

The League also learned....you pulled down the shirt of a young woman, exposing and touching her breast. This incident was captured on video and posted on social media...

Each of these incidents involved allegations of conduct that is expressly prohibited by the League's Personal Conduct Policy...As the Policy states, 't is not enough simply to avoid being found guilty of a crime. We are all held to a higher standard and must conduct ourselves in a way that is responsible, promotes the values of the NFL, and is lawful.'

Consequently, the League undertook an extensive investigation of the allegations...investigators interviewed more than a dozen witnesses, including Ms. Thompson, and examined all available evidence, including photographic and digital evidence, thousands of text messages and other records..."


Sounds like the NFL knew exactly who the person was they were directing their investigation towards, the exact actions they were investigating, the witnesses and victims of said actions, and had a ton of evidence with which to conduct an investigation.

The player was also bound by their league policy, which is what the League used as a reference in order to dole out the suspension.

The NHL has none of these available to it.

The league does not know the players who were allegedly involved. The only way to obtain this information is to be in obstruction of a criminal investigation, or to have obtained it from the London Police Department (illegally and therefore rendering all such material invalid).

The league doesn't know the exact criminal complaint. Again, the only way to obtain this is in an illegal manner until the criminal investigation is completed.

The league doesn't have access to any evidence. Again, the only way to obtain this is in an illegal manner until the criminal investigation is completed.

The players allegedly involved, were not bound by any NHL policies at the time of the infraction, unless they were members of and signatories of the NHL and its policies. Of which, CHL players are not.
 
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BigEezyE22

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That's irrelevant. They suspended without any proof of involvement.
It really isn't irrelevant.

It happened in a league facility, during a league-regulated event, and it was an issue that, in theory, impacted game play.

If anything, you might be able to say Roethlesberger's suspension is a comparable dynamic. Brady, on the other hands, is like comparing apples and octopi.
 

Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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Here are some excerpts of the memo sent to Elliot:

"In....the week of July 16, 2016, you were allegedly involved in multiple instances of physical violence against Ms. Tiffany Thompson...
On July 22, 2016, Ms. Thompson reported these incidents to the Columbus Police Department, which initiated an investigation...

The League also learned....you pulled down the shirt of a young woman, exposing and touching her breast. This incident was captured on video and posted on social media...

Each of these incidents involved allegations of conduct that is expressly prohibited by the League's Personal Conduct Policy...As the Policy states, 't is not enough simply to avoid being found guilty of a crime. We are all held to a higher standard and must conduct ourselves in a way that is responsible, promotes the values of the NFL, and is lawful.'

Consequently, the League undertook an extensive investigation of the allegations...investigators interviewed more than a dozen witnesses, including Ms. Thompson, and examined all available evidence, including photographic and digital evidence, thousands of text messages and other records..."



Sounds like the NFL knew exactly who the person was they were directing their investigation towards, the exact actions they were investigating, the witnesses and victims of said actions, and had a ton of evidence with which to conduct an investigation.

The player was also bound by their league policy, which is what the League used as a reference in order to dole out the suspension.

The NHL has none of these available to it.

The league does not know the players who were allegedly involved. The only way to obtain this information is to be in obstruction of a criminal investigation, or to have obtained it from the London Police Department (illegally and therefore rendering all such material invalid).

The league doesn't know the exact criminal complaint. Again, the only way to obtain this is in an illegal manner until the criminal investigation is completed.

The league doesn't have access to any evidence. Again, the only way to obtain this is in an illegal manner until the criminal investigation is completed.

The players allegedly involved, were not bound by any NHL policies at the time of the infraction, unless they were members of and signatories of the NHL and its policies. Of which, CHL players are not.
CHL players can sign their first contract in junior and have been drafted already by an NHL team.
 
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