Tavares signing

[WillyC]

I didn't say I needed concrete, just that there isn't any, unless you think signing EK was proof they offered JT more than Toronto did.

Even if the truth was… SJ offered Tavares 10.91 and he took 11 in Toronto, 13 wouldn’t be the number floating around… there was also NYI willing to go 8 years.

Tavares left millions on the table to come home.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Even if the truth was… SJ offered Tavares 10.91 and he took 11 in Toronto, 13 wouldn’t be the number floating around… there was also NYI willing to go 8 years.

Tavares left millions on the table to come home.

He may have done, but you can't prove it.

All we have to go on is rumours (I heard a rumour yesterday that Othani had signed with the Blue Jays). And if Lou said he offered $12 (which was another number I heard) then it was as likely to be yanking our chain or appeasing Isles' fans as a real offer. And even if it was real, knowing JT was not signing there, what did it matter?

And so what if SJ thought a 1C was worth 12 - does that necessarily make a 2C worth 11?

If you want to believe that, go ahead, but don't waste your time trying to convince me.

 

[WillyC]

He may have done, but you can't prove it.

All we have to go on is rumours (I heard a rumour yesterday that Othani had signed with the Blue Jays). And if Lou said he offered $12 (which was another number I heard) then it was as likely to be yanking our chain or appeasing Isles' fans as a real offer. And even if it was real, knowing JT was not signing there, what did it matter?

And so what if SJ thought a 1C was worth 12 - does that necessarily make a 2C worth 11?

If you want to believe that, go ahead, but don't waste your time trying to convince me.

I’m fine with JT as 2C… $11 million was the price for an UFA Center like Tavares at the time.

Everyone knew Matthews was 1C.

 

[Legion34]

If you are demanding 13.5 mil, he highest paid player in the league. NO. You do not get to be allowed to be neck and neck with a 5M winger. Nope. You do not get the luxury of being second on your own damn team in points. You are the highest paid player. You better damn well be dominating.

Let's try again.


Yes people are blaming McDavid. There was an entire thread asking if he was a good captain.

Why do you keep referring to 13.84 as 13, when it is much closer to 14?

The point is that even now, with the cap higher than when he signed, who's paying even 11 for a 2C?

Even without the flat cap, who, at the time he signed, paid 11 for anyone, let alone a 2C?

What? 14% was the going rate for every star player who wasn’t in a tax free market.

A 2 time hart finalist. 2nd overall in scoring.
That’s a 14% player.

It’s established. Kopitar panarin Benn etc got 14%.

He had a sweepstakes where 8 teams were invited. He took 14 million less from Toronto than SJ and NYI.

This is just silly.

The idea was he was worth 14% at the time. And his cap would go down as the cap went up. This is known.

He may have done, but you can't prove it.

All we have to go on is rumours (I heard a rumour yesterday that Othani had signed with the Blue Jays). And if Lou said he offered $12 (which was another number I heard) then it was as likely to be yanking our chain or appeasing Isles' fans as a real offer. And even if it was real, knowing JT was not signing there, what did it matter?

And so what if SJ thought a 1C was worth 12 - does that necessarily make a 2C worth 11?

If you want to believe that, go ahead, but don't waste your time trying to convince me.

Tavares agent confirmed the number 91 million over 7 years.

Dreger and SJ reporters confirmed it was SJ

 

[notDatsyuk]

What? 14% was the going rate for every star player who wasn’t in a tax free market.

A 2 time hart finalist. 2nd overall in scoring.
That’s a 14% player.

It’s established. Kopitar panarin Benn etc got 14%.

He had a sweepstakes where 8 teams were invited. He took 14 million less from Toronto than SJ and NYI.

This is just silly.

The idea was he was worth 14% at the time. And his cap would go down as the cap went up. This is known.



Tavares agent confirmed the number 91 million over 7 years.

Dreger and SJ reporters confirmed it was SJ

Other players getting 14 doesn't justify you call 13.84 '13'.

Benn got 13.01, which is not 14.

Not only are Kopitar and Panarin better, but the criterion wasn't 'star player' but 2C.

Your idea may have been that he was worth 14%, and SJ may have been willing to pay that for a 1C, but neither justifies Leafs paying that for a 2C.

Your proof is Tavares' agent and a couple of reporters? Think about that.

 

[hotpaws]

Even if the truth was… SJ offered Tavares 10.91 and he took 11 in Toronto, 13 wouldn’t be the number floating around… there was also NYI willing to go 8 years.

Tavares left millions on the table to come home.

13m got floated by one of the media members then regurgitated by the rest , they threw out an absurd number to deflect away from Dubies overpayment as well as to get some clicks

i guess you also believed when Elliot came out a month after AM signed and Dubie was getting shit on that the Yotes who couldn't pay their rent were going to offer the full 20% allowed of the cap

anyway it doesn't really matter if another team offered more since JT's tenure has not improved the team and Dubas isn't coming back regardless how desperatly want him too

Other players getting 14 doesn't justify you call 13.84 '13'.

Benn got 13.01, which is not 14.

Not only are Kopitar and Panarin better, but the criterion wasn't 'star player' but 2C.

Your idea may have been that he was worth 14%, and SJ may have been willing to pay that for a 1C, but neither justifies Leafs paying that for a 2C.

Your proof is Tavares' agent and a couple of reporters? Think about that.

i'd fact check everything coming from that poster , just saying

 

[Legion34]

Other players getting 14 doesn't justify you call 13.84 '13'.

Benn got 13.01, which is not 14.

Not only are Kopitar and Panarin better, but the criterion wasn't 'star player' but 2C.

Your idea may have been that he was worth 14%, and SJ may have been willing to pay that for a 1C, but neither justifies Leafs paying that for a 2C.

Your proof is Tavares' agent and a couple of reporters? Think about that.

1. That was a typo. I meant 14%
2. The 14% standard for markets for star players is not in any way disputable. The only exception is tax free markets

3. Tavares was a 27 year old 2 time hart finalist. You calling him a 2 c is just silly

Show me a bunch of 2 time hart finalists who had 2 c money or were considered 2c
You think was the 32-61 best c in the league? Why would all those teams line up then? Kind of silly

You can argue all you want that he didn’t get those offers. You can feel free to be as wrong as you like.

 

[Legion34]

Other players getting 14 doesn't justify you call 13.84 '13'.

Benn got 13.01, which is not 14.

Not only are Kopitar and Panarin better, but the criterion wasn't 'star player' but 2C.

Your idea may have been that he was worth 14%, and SJ may have been willing to pay that for a 1C, but neither justifies Leafs paying that for a 2C.

Your proof is Tavares' agent and a couple of reporters? Think about that.

Just fyi according to NHL. Com

During his time in NYI Tavares was 6th in goals and 7th in points for Centers

He was a 2 time hart finalist and 2nd in the league in points 1 and a first team all star

In his time in Toronto

He is 8th goals and 9th in points for centers and was 3rd in goals 1 season

Claiming he is a 2C which is a 33-62nd best c in the league is just silly.

 

[-DeMo-]

Other players getting 14 doesn't justify you call 13.84 '13'.

Benn got 13.01, which is not 14.

Not only are Kopitar and Panarin better, but the criterion wasn't 'star player' but 2C.

Your idea may have been that he was worth 14%, and SJ may have been willing to pay that for a 1C, but neither justifies Leafs paying that for a 2C.

Your proof is Tavares' agent and a couple of reporters? Think about that.

why do you say Tavares was a 2C? he's been deployed like a 1C since coming to Toronto in terms of ice time and PP1 ice time is Malkin a 2C aswell by your definition?

 

[notDatsyuk]

1. That was a typo. I meant 14%
2. The 14% standard for markets for star players is not in any way disputable. The only exception is tax free markets

3. Tavares was a 27 year old 2 time hart finalist. You calling him a 2 c is just silly

Show me a bunch of 2 time hart finalists who had 2 c money or were considered 2c
You think was the 32-61 best c in the league? Why would all those teams line up then? Kind of silly

You can argue all you want that he didn’t get those offers. You can feel free to be as wrong as you like.

My mistake - it was another poster calling it 13%.

As I said, it's not 'star players' it's a 2C. And considering we had Matthews (and Kadri and Nylander, but that's another story), we were acquiring a 2C for our team. If other teams wanted him as their 1C, then 14% is reasonable for them. 14% is not reasonable for your 2C.

For example, if you have Ullmark as your #1 goalie, at $5M, do you then go out and pay Vasiliavsky $9.5M to be your backup?

And I didn't say he didn't get those offers, just that there's no evidence beyond his agent and rumours.

 

[notDatsyuk]

why do you say Tavares was a 2C? he's been deployed like a 1C since coming to Toronto in terms of ice time and PP1 ice time is Malkin a 2C aswell by your definition?

Better check your facts. Except for his first season here, where he averaged 32 seconds more ice time, Matthews has had much more ice time per game, averaging 2 1/2 minutes more per game.

Do you really want to compare JT with Malkin?

 

[Legion34]

My mistake - it was another poster calling it 13%.

As I said, it's not 'star players' it's a 2C. And considering we had Matthews (and Kadri and Nylander, but that's another story), we were acquiring a 2C for our team. If other teams wanted him as their 1C, then 14% is reasonable for them. 14% is not reasonable for your 2C.

For example, if you have Ullmark as your #1 goalie, at $5M, do you then go out and pay Vasiliavsky $9.5M to be your backup?

And I didn't say he didn't get those offers, just that there's no evidence beyond his agent and rumours.

Playing him as a 2c here doesn’t mean he is a 2C calibre player.
Stars play 20 min a night

Lots of successful teams have run 2 c forever

Gretz/mess. Lemieux/francis, Crosby/malkin, sakic/forsbeg, yzerman/federov, zett/dats etc

Are all those 2c?

He was worth his contract at the time. The pandemic changed the aging curve/salary.

That doesn’t mean he wasn’t worth it.

Better check your facts. Except for his first season here, where he averaged 32 seconds more ice time, Matthews has had much more ice time per game, averaging 2 1/2 minutes more per game.

Do you really want to compare JT with Malkin?

Why not. Aren’t they both 2c?

 

[-DeMo-]

Better check your facts. Except for his first season here, where he averaged 32 seconds more ice time, Matthews has had much more ice time per game, averaging 2 1/2 minutes more per game.

Do you really want to compare JT with Malkin?

I don't need to check anything perhaps you should. just because Matthews got more ice time doesn't mean he didn't get 1C ice time for example in year 2 19:33 is 22nd among all centers in ice time including top 10 in EVTOI + PPTOI how is that not being deployed as a 1C?

what do you want to compare between Tavares and Malkin? there ice time per game has pretty much identical if not a little higher for Tavares every year since joining the leafs other then last year. and since joining the league Tavares has out produced Malkin. only Stamkos and Crosby have out produced Tavares since he entered the league amongst centers. and yes I know Malkin is the better player, not really debatable but you word was we were signing tavares as a #2C but that simply isn't true. you can give 2 centers 1C ice time.

 

[WillyC]

Matthews and Tavares have always been billed as 1A and 1B.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Playing him as a 2c here doesn’t mean he is a 2C calibre player.
Stars play 20 min a night

Lots of successful teams have run 2 c forever

Gretz/mess. Lemieux/francis, Crosby/malkin, sakic/forsbeg, yzerman/federov, zett/dats etc

Are all those 2c?

He was worth his contract at the time. The pandemic changed the aging curve/salary.

That doesn’t mean he wasn’t worth it.



Why not. Aren’t they both 2c?

Glad you clarified that. So since JT has never averaged 20 minutes a game in Toronto, you proved my point.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I don't need to check anything perhaps you should. just because Matthews got more ice time doesn't mean he didn't get 1C ice time for example in year 2 19:33 is 22nd among all centers in ice time including top 10 in EVTOI + PPTOI how is that not being deployed as a 1C?

what do you want to compare between Tavares and Malkin? there ice time per game has pretty much identical if not a little higher for Tavares every year since joining the leafs other then last year. and since joining the league Tavares has out produced Malkin. only Stamkos and Crosby have out produced Tavares since he entered the league amongst centers. and yes I know Malkin is the better player, not really debatable but you word was we were signing tavares as a #2C but that simply isn't true. you can give 2 centers 1C ice time.

Just because the team didn't have any other centres, doesn't make JT a #1 if he is still getting less ice time than the #1 centre. Why is that hard to understand?

What it really means is that Dubas' mistake in signing JT had already cost us Kadri, who would have been a much better 3C than Kerfoot.

If you really want to pretend that he was almost a second #1 in 19-20, what about since then, when he's averaging almost 3 minutes less?

 

[mikeyz]

the problem wasn't the tavares signing. The problem is and has been Dubas letting it dictate the RFA signings.

He didn't have the balls to say, Tavares is our leader so no one makes close to him. Now we are in this situation. Anytime you can add a top tier player you do.

This is the correct answer.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Matthews and Tavares have always been billed as 1A and 1B.

Now you're just being silly.

 

[mikeyz]

This thread is 4 years old dude.

At the time, he was right. Lol.

 

[-DeMo-]

Just because the team didn't have any other centres, doesn't make JT a #1 if he is still getting less ice time than the #1 centre. Why is that hard to understand?

What it really means is that Dubas' mistake in signing JT had already cost us Kadri, who would have been a much better 3C than Kerfoot.

so again Malkin is considered a 2C then in your world because he gets less ice time then Crosby?

what makes JT a number one center is his production offensively is undeniable, and his usage since coming to the Leafs has been that of a 1C. getting top 10 ice time league wide on EVTOI/GP + PPTOI/GP proves that to be true. you can play two centers 1C minutes.

Signing JT allowed us to use Kadri to improve a weakness Defense. while improving on Kadri himself for free other then Cap and money. Dubas messed that trade up badly going for Barrie instead of a quality top pairing guy. no questions there. but I don't understand why you can't see this. prior to signing Tavares Kadri would have been off the table and Dubas would have been trying to make trades with guys like Kapanen/Johnsson/Brown and picks/prospects. once we sign Tavares now we have Kadri whose value is so much higher who can now be used as a chip to improve the defense.

it didn't Cost us Kadri that's the wrong way of looking at it, it enabled us to add a more valuable asset to the trade table to acquire something we desperately needed. Dubas just messed that up.

 

[notDatsyuk]

so again Malkin is considered a 2C then in your world because he gets less ice time then Crosby?

what makes JT a number one center is his production offensively is undeniable, and his usage since coming to the Leafs has been that of a 1C. getting top 10 ice time league wide on EVTOI/GP + PPTOI/GP proves that to be true. you can play two centers 1C minutes.

Signing JT allowed us to use Kadri to improve a weakness Defense. while improving on Kadri himself for free other then Cap and money. Dubas messed that trade up badly going for Barrie instead of a quality top pairing guy. no questions there. but I don't understand why you can't see this. prior to signing Tavares Kadri would have been off the table and Dubas would have been trying to make trades with guys like Kapanen/Johnsson/Brown and picks/prospects. once we sign Tavares now we have Kadri whose value is so much higher who can now be used as a chip to improve the defense.

it didn't Cost us Kadri that's the wrong way of looking at it, it enabled us to add a more valuable asset to the trade table to acquire something we desperately needed. Dubas just messed that up.

If you still can't see the difference in 1C and 2C (and now you're moving the goalposts), there's no point in wasting more of my time.

Do you really believe that using $4.5M would have given us a greater defensive improvement than using $11M?

 

[WillyC]

If you still can't see the difference in 1C and 2C (and now you're moving the goalposts), there's no point in wasting more of my time.

Do you really believe that using $4.5M would have given us a greater defensive improvement than using $11M?

Aren’t you the guy trumpeting to move JT to 3C?

 

[Sypher04]

They don't sign JT for 11 and Matthews ask wouldn't start at +11M

Tavares deal has nothing to do with what Matthews got paid. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themself

 

[Sypher04]

the problem wasn't the tavares signing. The problem is and has been Dubas letting it dictate the RFA signings.

He didn't have the balls to say, Tavares is our leader so no one makes close to him. Now we are in this situation. Anytime you can add a top tier player you do.

I get that’s been the narrative, but Matthews salary has nothing to do with what JT was making, and Marner’s salary has everything to do with what Matthews got. Tavares wasn’t the domino that caused their deals

 

[hullsy47]

I’m fine with JT as 2C… $11 million was the price for an UFA Center like Tavares at the time.

Everyone knew Matthews was 1C.

Tavaras has nt been a problem at 11 mill .dubas didn't have the balls to hold firm on marner and the Leafs are really not any better than when msrner got s 9 million dollar raise
Tsvaras was a good free agen signing