Tavares signing

[Arzak]

I get that’s been the narrative, but Matthews salary has nothing to do with what JT was making, and Marner’s salary has everything to do with what Matthews got. Tavares wasn’t the domino that caused their deals

Do you live in a vacuum?

JT was without a doubt a domino that started the crapshoot ending with Mitch "tell them I'm elite on PK" Marner - RFA at the time - $11M

 

[-DeMo-]

The logic I responded to was along the lines of 'we signed JT so we had the Kadri money to spend on D'. I just pointed out that if we hadn't signed JT we would have had Kadri and more money for D.

Last three seasons, Matty 20:44, JT 17:57, Kampf 15:17. JT is closer to Kampf's ice time than to Matty's. By your logic, JT is more correctly called a 3C than a 1C.

that's not really true considering both Matthews and Tavares averaged 5 seconds or less in PK time compared to Kampf who has averaged 2:34. so when just comparing time's of EVTOI and PPTOI JT is closer to Matthews then Kampf. since neither has killed penalties they both sat while Kampf killed penalties. even if you take that away 2:47 difference to Matthews vs 2:30 Kampf yup sooo much closer to Kampf.

it's also weird how you used year 3-5 of a new contract to point out that he was signed to be a 2C. when you look at the his entire contract length he's 19th among all center's in EVTOI + PPTOI per game. how is that not a 1C? in 88 minutes of more ice-time Matthews only produced 5 more points then Tavares last season.

also I never mentioned money at all in terms of Kadri so not sure why you went that route. only that he became expendable to be used as a trade chip once we signed Tavares. I made no mention of money or cap, other then it only cost us that to sign Tavares.

 

[Sypher04]

I believe you could have gotten Matthews closer to 10 without Tavares in the locker room making 11 and Matthews out performing him.

I think there was zero chance of that.

I think it was Nylander's agent on Leafs Lunch that said it. Yes, it change the pay structure of the team. and killed their chances.

Changed the pay structure in the sense that are cap allocation shifted dramatically sure, but dragging up salaries itself if the core, nope.

maybe you can tell us why you think he should have come between those two but for 3 yrs less term

I already know exactly what your reply to this will be but the answer is multi fold:
1) his ELC production rates were far closer to McDavid than they were Eichel
2) the significance of the difference between RFA pay for top tier talent vs UFA pay is shrinking when RFAs are not short term bridged on their second deal
3) player value isn’t a function of on ice metrics alone

A couple of posters do like to point that out, without mentioning that it was a dump towards the net from a bad angle , that happened to bounce in off a defender's skate. It was also his only goal in the last 9 playoff games.

Which does not change the fact that we might have had a better overall team and won more if Dubas hadn't signed him,.

There’s certainly an argument for that. Definitely hard to fault the team for going after Tavares when available, but there are what ifs that stem from that moment.

Not going to mention term ?

Of course JT's contract was used in the negotiations for both 34 & 16

I guarantee you Matthews’ camp used McDavid as their comp, not Tavares. And Marner’s camp used Matthews.

Term doesn’t require mention for the reasons I posted above to another person

Do you live in a vacuum?

JT was without a doubt a domino that started the crapshoot ending with Mitch "tell them I'm elite on PK" Marner - RFA at the time - $11M

He wasn’t and I don’t.

 

[Nineteen67]

Scoring 4 goals in his NHL debut… finishing 2nd for the Rocket with 40 goals, winning the Calder… winning 2 more Rockets.

Where did you think he was going to land in regards to salary?

If they were managed properly he would have signed about the same but for 8 yrs. As term goes down so does the AAV.

 

[Sypher04]

If they were managed properly he would have signed about the same but for 8 yrs. As term goes down so does the AAV.

Actually, the 8 year cost would have been higher.

 

[egd27]

I guarantee you Matthews’ camp used McDavid as their comp, not Tavares.
And Marner’s camp used Matthews.

You think the agents only used one comp? Extremely unlikely.

 

[Sypher04]

You think the agents only used one comp? Extremely unlikely.

If you’ve got a fairly strong case to compare against the highest paid player in the league why would you present other cases than that comp?

 

[notDatsyuk]

that's not really true considering both Matthews and Tavares averaged 5 seconds or less in PK time compared to Kampf who has averaged 2:34. so when just comparing time's of EVTOI and PPTOI JT is closer to Matthews then Kampf. since neither has killed penalties they both sat while Kampf killed penalties. even if you take that away 2:47 difference to Matthews vs 2:30 Kampf yup sooo much closer to Kampf.

it's also weird how you used year 3-5 of a new contract to point out that he was signed to be a 2C. when you look at the his entire contract length he's 19th among all center's in EVTOI + PPTOI per game. how is that not a 1C? in 88 minutes of more ice-time Matthews only produced 5 more points then Tavares last season.

also I never mentioned money at all in terms of Kadri so not sure why you went that route. only that he became expendable to be used as a trade chip once we signed Tavares. I made no mention of money or cap, other then it only cost us that to sign Tavares.

Interesting that you need to remove PK to try to justify your point, but you need to keep PP time, which has exactly the same relationship to first line, or second line.

OK, if you weren't referring to Kadri's salary, how about this: do you think what we could have got back in a trade for Kadri would be as good as what we could have got for $11M?

 

[Nineteen67]

Actually, the 8 year cost would have been higher.

I have no doubt as they were worst manage team in the NHL.

 

[Hellcat]

I'm glad you got me now explain why he was brought in if not to help advance the team .

was it for his sparkling personality or maybe it was to teach the younguns to squeeze for every dollar they can get ?

He was brought in to to score Sparky, you new to how this works?

 

[egd27]

If you’ve got a fairly strong case to compare against the highest paid player in the league why would you present other cases than that comp?

Which fairly strong case was that?

The fact that he racked up 80% of the points McD did in his 1st 3 years so he deserved 93% of his contract for only a 5 year term rather than 8 ?

Or that he was teams best player and should therefore also be the highest paid?

 

[Sypher04]

I have no doubt as they were worst manage team in the NHL.

Well, that’s certainly an opinion. A poorly supported one, but an opinion nonetheless.

 

[notDatsyuk]

There’s certainly an argument for that. Definitely hard to fault the team for going after Tavares when available, but there are what ifs that stem from that moment.

I thought at the time, and still do, that he was an unnecessary addition, considering we had Matty, Naz, and Willy (and JVR?) for centres, and were much more in need of D. If the price tag had been 9-9.5, or for a much shorted term (very unlikely), that would have been more acceptable.

I do think that was the start of the cap problems -- if your 2C get 11, what does your much better 1C deserve?

 

[hotpaws]

I already know exactly what your reply to this will be but the answer is multi fold:
1) his ELC production rates were far closer to McDavid than they were Eichel
2) the significance of the difference between RFA pay for top tier talent vs UFA pay is shrinking when RFAs are not short term bridged on their second deal
3) player value isn’t a function of on ice metrics alone

1- his production rate was at best in the middle between McD and Eichel but his overall play was much closer to Eichel

2- no idea what your trying to argue with this point since it hasn't been part of the discussion but the facts are AM got a cap hit that should for max term when using his actual comps and not internal team salary structure

3- i'm guessing your trying to use this to justify JT getting the highest cap hit in the league at the time of his signing even though he was no where near a player that deserved that level of pay

at the end of the day the problem with signing JT for that cap hit is that he didn't fill a need regardless of how hard some are trying to argue otherwise

the team at that time needed D and a reasonably priced 3rd line C , the last thing it needed was an overrated overpriced 11m dollar 2nd line C

 

[Sypher04]

I thought at the time, and still do, that he was an unnecessary addition, considering we had Matty, Naz, and Willy (and JVR?) for centres, and were much more in need of D. If the price tag had been 9-9.5, or for a much shorted term (very unlikely), that would have been more acceptable.

I do think that was the start of the cap problems -- if your 2C get 11, what does your much better 1C deserve?

Oh it’s without question the start of the cap problems. Well, that signing in conjunction with all our top young players being due contracts quickly thereafter.

 

[TMLife17]

(11.634x5)+(13.25x3)=97.92

97.92/8=12.24

You think Auston is 98% the player McDavid is? No? Correct, we got hosed on his deals.

 

[hotpaws]

He was brought in to to score Sparky, you new to how this works?

most would think it's to help the team win but i'm guessing your right since Johnny's never helped his team win as evidenced by how much better the Islanders have performed since he's left so it must be to get his 30ish goals for the low low price of 11m ,

should have kept Hyman instead for half the price since at least he can get in on the forecheck before he plants himself in the crease

 

[-DeMo-]

Interesting that you need to remove PK to try to justify your point, but you need to keep PP time, which has exactly the same relationship to first line, or second line.

OK, if you weren't referring to Kadri's salary, how about this: do you think what we could have got back in a trade for Kadri would be as good as what we could have got for $11M?

I took PK time away because alot of 1C's don't play on the PK including Matthews who averaged 5 seconds of ice time the last 3 years on the PK.

Player A is traded for or Signed as a UFA which method is usually cheaper from a salary stand point? and yes I believe we could have traded for a top pairing Dmen making in the 6-8 mill range and had the cap room to do so with Tavares signed. I mean besides Karlsson no dmen even makes double digits I don't think most come in at 8-9 mill in the high end range.

 

[Sypher04]

1- his production rate was at best in the middle between McD and Eichel but his overall play was much closer to Eichel

2- no idea what your trying to argue with this point since it hasn't been part of the discussion but the facts are AM got a cap hit that should for max term when using his actual comps and not internal team salary structure

3- i'm guessing your trying to use this to justify JT getting the highest cap hit the league even though he was no where near a player that deserved that level of

at the end of the day the problem with signing JT for that cap hit is that he didn't fill a need regardless of how hard some are trying to argue otherwise

the team at that time needed D and a reasonably priced 3rd line C , the last thing it needed was an overrated overpriced 11m dollar 2nd line C

1 - the stats have been posted many times over, the gap between McDavid’s and Matthews’ ELC production rates is significantly closer than Matthews and Eichel. That cap percentage would have moved closer to McDavid over a longer term but obviously never meet on par. People like yourself are suggesting he got his top end amount over 5 years, when in reality he got less than his top end amount over less than his top end term.

2 - it very much is part of the conversation. You specifically asked about the shorter term in relation to where his AAV landed. I’m saying lopping off UFA years doesn’t drop the valuation annually as much as it used to. Players are getting paid, regardless of RFA or UFA status. There is still a UFA bump it’s just much less pronounced than in the past. Your “fact” is not a fact at all, as pointed out by response in part 1 of this reply.

3 - no, I’m talking about the cost of brand, marketability, franchise value to organization etc that don’t show up on any kind of spreadsheets we look at it. I don’t think this is a huge tipping factor on valuation which is why I listed it last but I don’t think it can be disregarded either

I won’t personally answer for the whole whether JT was a need part here as I haven’t personally made any arguments on that subject.

 

[hotpaws]

1 - the stats have been posted many times over, the gap between McDavid’s and Matthews’ ELC production rates is significantly closer than Matthews and Eichel. That cap percentage would have moved closer to McDavid over a longer term but obviously never meet on par. People like yourself are suggesting he got his top end amount over 5 years, when in reality he got less than his top end amount over less than his top end term.

2 - it very much is part of the conversation. You specifically asked about the shorter term in relation to where his AAV landed. I’m saying lopping off UFA years doesn’t drop the valuation annually as much as it used to. Players are getting paid, regardless of RFA or UFA status. There is still a UFA bump it’s just much less pronounced than in the past. Your “fact” is not a fact at all, as pointed out by response in part 1 of this reply.

3 - no, I’m talking about the cost of brand, marketability, franchise value to organization etc that don’t show up on any kind of spreadsheets we look at it. I don’t think this is a huge tipping factor on valuation which is why I listed it last but I don’t think it can be disregarded either

I won’t personally answer for the whole whether JT was a need part here as I haven’t personally made any arguments on that subject.

your making yourself look foolish by trying to justify AM's cap at a much shorter term than McD's/Eichel so i have to ask , are you defending AM or galaxy brain former GM who has already starting driving his new team into the toilet

and you can ignore whether he was a need or not but anyone with any knowledge of the game could easily see that a team with AM and Kadri as our top 2 centers didn't have a need to overpay a ufa at the same position

 

[Arzak]

your making yourself look foolish by trying to justify AM's cap at a much shorter term than McD's/Eichel so i have to ask , are you defending AM or galaxy brain former GM who has already starting driving his new team into the toilet

and you can ignore whether he was a need or not but anyone with any knowledge of the game could easily see that a team with AM and Kadri as our top 2 centers didn't have a need to overpay a ufa at the same position

True story. Even if there was a team willing to overpay JT as much as we did (I don't think there was). You would assume it's a team missing 1 C not one replacing perfectly capable 2C that needs to overpay JT.

 

[Zybalto]

Matthews vs. McDavid vs. Eichel (min 2000 min played for the /60 numbers):


McDavid on ELC:
GP: 209
Goals: 87 (28th in the NHL over this time period for G/60)
Points: 256 (2nd in the NHL over this time period for P/60)

Matthews on ELC:
GP: 212
Goals: 111 (1st in the NHL over this time period for G/60)
Points: 205 (10th in the NHL over this time period for P/60)

Eichel on ELC:
GP: 203
Goals: 73 (61st in the NHL over this time period for G/60)
Points: 177 (41st in the NHL over this time period for P/60)

They all suffered injuries during their ELCs which is why they still ended up close in GP.

Taking into account Matthews was better defensively, better at faceoffs, etc. than the other 2 during his ELC, it's not a surprise he got the number he got.

The fact he followed it up with good battles with McDavid for the Hart (winning 1) and a couple of Rockets only shows how correct the pricetags were at the time no?

Which 2 players would be more comparable out of the 3? Is it really even a question?

 

[Ciao]

Oh, God, this is tiresome.

I enjoy watching Tavares play and I'm glad he's a Leaf.

I really couldn't care less how much he gets paid.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

I'm cool with the Tavares signing. It was fun.

Would love to see JT get 2 points tonight.

 

[Drytoast]

I think there was zero chance of that.



Changed the pay structure in the sense that are cap allocation shifted dramatically sure, but dragging up salaries itself if the core, nope.



I already know exactly what your reply to this will be but the answer is multi fold:
1) his ELC production rates were far closer to McDavid than they were Eichel
2) the significance of the difference between RFA pay for top tier talent vs UFA pay is shrinking when RFAs are not short term bridged on their second deal
3) player value isn’t a function of on ice metrics alone



There’s certainly an argument for that. Definitely hard to fault the team for going after Tavares when available, but there are what ifs that stem from that moment.



I guarantee you Matthews’ camp used McDavid as their comp, not Tavares. And Marner’s camp used Matthews.

Term doesn’t require mention for the reasons I posted above to another person



He wasn’t and I don’t.

How much do you think Willy wants?