Speculation: Summer 2018 Roster Discussion Part III

[Pinkfloyd]

Dorion said he was fielding offers from all teams during an interview. Price was just higher to FLA. it’s a business and I doubt they’ll hold a grudge. Doesn’t mean we’re a favorite to get EK65 but we’re not out because of the Hoffman deal

That's not all that went down in the Hoffman situation. Melnyk made the call to deal Hoffman out of division...not Dorion. If Melnyk got involved then, he'll get involved now and considering how it wasn't that long ago, he's not going to forget what DW did. He will certainly hold a grudge long enough to resolve the Karlsson trade by at the very least not giving us a real shot at him especially when other teams like Vegas and Anaheim can offer better.

 

[Pistol Pete]

Until there is a report or quote that Dorian and or Melnyk are angry at DW for the Hoffman flip, it’s pure speculation. You can’t think rationally when it comes to Ottawa. If the Sharks offer a solid package, are willing to take Ryan back, and Ryan and Karlsson want to come to SJ, there’s no reason to believe the Sens wouldn’t accept it.

 

[pappaf2]

From what I've read Ottawa had talks with Florida about trading Hoffman. Tallon said Ottawa wanted roster players that he didn't want to give up. DW told Tallon he'd take a package of picks for Hoffman. Tallon said yes and DW made a trade that Ottawa was ok with.

 

[Gecklund]

How can you realistically expect to land both Faulk and Skinner would having either Meier or Hertl go back.

Tierney+Labanc+Norris+picks

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Until there is a report or quote that Dorian and or Melnyk are angry at DW for the Hoffman flip, it’s pure speculation. You can’t think rationally when it comes to Ottawa. If the Sharks offer a solid package, are willing to take Ryan back, and Ryan and Karlsson want to come to SJ, there’s no reason to believe the Sens wouldn’t accept it.

There doesn't need to be a report or a quote that they're mad at DW. There already has been reports that Melnyk told Dorion to not trade Hoffman within their division and, because of DW, Hoffman is in their division. Of course they're not happy with that and of course that's plenty of reason for someone like Melnyk to not trade with the Sharks regarding Karlsson. All of that is rational and based on credible reports so don't tell me nonsense about thinking rationally when it comes to Ottawa. Ottawa doesn't hold any special meaning. It's just a realistic view on the situation based on the evidence that's out there. That's the most rational thing someone can do. You're just pretending none of that exists.

 

[FeedingFrenzy]

Maybe it's just me but why are so many of you ready to trade Tierney??
He has progressed every year, wants to be a Shark. There is no reason he can't be our 3C long term. He still has room to improve but I feel he gets better with some better linemates.
5yrs/11.5 mil. Goes from making 700k to 2.3 mil.. If he continues to put up 40 or more that's a steal at 2.3mil. No reason to think he regresses. And if it doesn't work out that's a very moveable contract.
My .02

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Maybe it's just me but why are so many of you ready to trade Tierney??
He has progressed every year, wants to be a Shark. There is no reason he can't be our 3C long term. He still has room to improve but I feel he gets better with some better linemates.
5yrs/11.5 mil. Goes from making 700k to 2.3 mil.. If he continues to put up 40 or more that's a steal at 2.3mil. No reason to think he regresses. And if it doesn't work out that's a very moveable contract.
My .02

I think it's pretty much a given that Tierney's staying but I don't think either side would want to invest five years into him right now. To me, it makes sense to sign him for two years at about that much of an AAV. Keeps him restricted, can see if he taps into any unfulfilled potential, then can lock him up long term after.

 

[STL Shark]

Maybe it's just me but why are so many of you ready to trade Tierney??
He has progressed every year, wants to be a Shark. There is no reason he can't be our 3C long term. He still has room to improve but I feel he gets better with some better linemates.
5yrs/11.5 mil. Goes from making 700k to 2.3 mil.. If he continues to put up 40 or more that's a steal at 2.3mil. No reason to think he regresses. And if it doesn't work out that's a very moveable contract.
My .02

Because he is going to cost more than that given the deals we have seen dished out lately. Plus, he is unsigned and things don't appear to be close which leads credence to the idea that he could be on the move soon. He is also the easiest to replace given the current system with guys like Gambrell and Suomela. He is also a 23 year old center coming off a 40 point season so he is likely going to have decent value on the trade market as well.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Because he is going to cost more than that given the deals we have seen dished out lately. Plus, he is unsigned and things don't appear to be close which leads credence to the idea that he could be on the move soon. He is also the easiest to replace given the current system with guys like Gambrell and Suomela. He is also a 23 year old center coming off a 40 point season so he is likely going to have decent value on the trade market as well.

Gambrell and Suomela should prove themselves either in the AHL or on the 4th line first before they move on from Tierney at this point.

 

[Gecklund]

Maybe it's just me but why are so many of you ready to trade Tierney??
He has progressed every year, wants to be a Shark. There is no reason he can't be our 3C long term. He still has room to improve but I feel he gets better with some better linemates.
5yrs/11.5 mil. Goes from making 700k to 2.3 mil.. If he continues to put up 40 or more that's a steal at 2.3mil. No reason to think he regresses. And if it doesn't work out that's a very moveable contract.
My .02

Because I'd rather keep Pav at center and we have areas on our team that need to be upgraded and we have replacements at 3C

 

[STL Shark]

Gambrell and Suomela should prove themselves either in the AHL or on the 4th line first before they move on from Tierney at this point.

Suomela proved himself by leading SM-Liiga in points last season. I think he can handle 3rd line minutes in the NHL given what he will have on his wings. Or ideally, if Tierney is traded it is part of a larger package to bring a bigger named center in that pushes Jumbo into the 3C role.

 

[WSS11]

That's not all that went down in the Hoffman situation. Melnyk made the call to deal Hoffman out of division...not Dorion. If Melnyk got involved then, he'll get involved now and considering how it wasn't that long ago, he's not going to forget what DW did. He will certainly hold a grudge long enough to resolve the Karlsson trade by at the very least not giving us a real shot at him especially when other teams like Vegas and Anaheim can offer better.

Where did you read Melnyk made the calls?
I’m referring to 8:09 of the interview below.

 

[Hinterland]

Shots = possession. If you can't understand that most common detail then this conversation is not worth having. Even without the possession numbers, I still don't want a 5'8 center through his age 34 season in the Pacific division. Especially when I can have Tierney without having to take on an albatross contract like Bobby Ryan and give up other assets.

Hilarious. The number of shots depends mostly on strategy and type of players you got as well as on zone starts and quality of opponents. A volume shooter like Kane is always gonna have good possession stats while a passer will find it harder to shine in that regard...despite maybe possessing the puck a lot.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Tierney+Labanc+Norris+picks

That is not going to get it done for both.

That is a lot of quantity for 2 quality players. Not that Tierney and Labanc are bad but the Canes have the 2 best players in that deal by a fair margin. I know I would not want that if I were a Carolina fan.

 

[Hinterland]

Suomela proved himself by leading SM-Liiga in points last season. I think he can handle 3rd line minutes in the NHL given what he will have on his wings. Or ideally, if Tierney is traded it is part of a larger package to bring a bigger named center in that pushes Jumbo into the 3C role.

Liiga isn't what it used to be. Some posters from Finnland were pretty sceptical. There's never a guarantee with Europeans anyway. We'll see.

 

[Gecklund]

That is not going to get it done for both.

That is a lot of quantity for 2 quality players. Not that Tierney and Labanc are bad but the Canes have the 2 best players in that deal by a fair margin. I know I would not want that if I were a Carolina fan.

Well I mean I'm okay just getting Faulk, if we do that and then stay pat at forward I'm totally fine with that.

Going into the season with:
Hertl-Couture-Labanc
Kane-Pavelski-Donskoi
Meier-Jumbo-Balcers
Goodrow-Suomela/Gambrell-Sorenson

Vlasic-Faulk
Ryan-Burns
Dillon-Braun

Package to get Faulk would be something like Tierney+Norris/other prospect+either 2 2nds in 19 or 1st in 20

 

[pappaf2]

Because he is going to cost more than that given the deals we have seen dished out lately. Plus, he is unsigned and things don't appear to be close which leads credence to the idea that he could be on the move soon. He is also the easiest to replace given the current system with guys like Gambrell and Suomela. He is also a 23 year old center coming off a 40 point season so he is likely going to have decent value on the trade market as well.

I agree with this. Sharks have a couple guys that should be able to fill Tierney's roll, plus he's the best trade chips the sharks have that won't leave a big hole in the roster.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Suomela proved himself by leading SM-Liiga in points last season. I think he can handle 3rd line minutes in the NHL given what he will have on his wings. Or ideally, if Tierney is traded it is part of a larger package to bring a bigger named center in that pushes Jumbo into the 3C role.

Proving yourself there is not the same as proving yourself in the NHL. Even if it was, just put him in the middle on the 4th line and if he impresses, move him up then consider trading Tierney.

Where did you read Melnyk made the calls?
I’m referring to 8:09 of the interview below.

Every team in their division got calls from Dorion. That doesn't mean he wasn't told by his owner to trade him outside of the division as Craig Custance had reported. That smile that Dorion gave when he was asked that question was him pretty much admitting that to be the case but his answer was the dodge answer that he has to give to not throw his boss under the bus.

 

[STL Shark]

Hilarious. The number of shots depends mostly on strategy and type of players you got as well as on zone starts and quality of opponents. A volume shooter like Kane is always gonna have good possession stats while a passer will find it harder to shine in that regard...despite maybe possessing the puck a lot.

Looking strictly at the CF% or FF%, sure your argument is maybe a little valid (but not really). However, when you look at the CFrel and FFrel, you get a direct comparison of shot attempts compared to teammates when said player is off the ice to see said players true impact.

Additionally, to further show your point is a steaming pile of nonsense garbage, how does perennial pass-first shoot never Joe Thornton have elite possession numbers since it all depends "mostly on strategy" as opposed to possession? Riddle me that one. O-zone starts have an effect obviously and the stat is not an end all be all (high danger scoring chances for/against is a great supplement to CF/FF%) , but it is most definitely the best place to start when it comes to measuring possession and a players effect on the game over the course of a season. If your team shoots more than the other team when you are on the ice, there are generally less chances for the other team to put the puck in the net when you are out there as opposed to you putting it in theirs (which is kind of the goal of hockey).

 

[WSS11]

Proving yourself there is not the same as proving yourself in the NHL. Even if it was, just put him in the middle on the 4th line and if he impresses, move him up then consider trading Tierney.



Every team in their division got calls from Dorion. That doesn't mean he wasn't told by his owner to trade him outside of the division as Craig Custance had reported. That smile that Dorion gave when he was asked that question was him pretty much admitting that to be the case but his answer was the dodge answer that he has to give to not throw his boss under the bus.

Doesn’t mean that DW was asked or instructed not to flip him back east. I really don’t think it’ll be that big of a deal. If we don’t get EK65 then it’ll be because we were outbid not because Melnyk & co. Are holding a high school grudge.

 

[pappaf2]

Tallon is specifically quoted saying that he had talks with Dorian about trading for Hoffman but the price (roster players) was to high. Sounds like the Sens would have traded him in the division, the price just might have been higher.

 

[Boy Hedican]

Not saying I wouldn’t want EK, but I really don’t want to move Meier. I can’t WAIT to see him develop.

And while every team could and should want EK, i just...don’t want to give away some of the only young talent we have. Not saying Meier is gonna be more effective than EK, but he has a lot of potential to be a special shark.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Doesn’t mean that DW was asked or instructed not to flip him back east. I really don’t think it’ll be that big of a deal. If we don’t get EK65 then it’ll be because we were outbid not because Melnyk & co. Are holding a high school grudge.

Well, Melnyk can't instruct DW to do that. That doesn't mean that Melnyk wouldn't be happy about the deal and respond by not making Karlsson available to the Sharks or even trading him to a competitor of ours. If you don't think Melnyk won't hold a grudge then you're not paying attention too much to them. They will and they do.

 

[STL Shark]

Proving yourself there is not the same as proving yourself in the NHL. Even if it was, just put him in the middle on the 4th line and if he impresses, move him up then consider trading Tierney.

Guess we have to wait for him to pass PDB's 10 game tryout to get into the circle of trust before we can move Tierney... Using the most up to date translation factors I could find, Suomela's 60 points in 59 games in SM-Liiga last year equal a 36 point season in the NHL (assuming 82 games played). Tierney had 40 points so I am willing to take a risk on moving him for a better player and letting Suomela fill his role as the difference is likely to be negligible and Suomela is going to cost about 1/3 of the AAV of Tierney.

 

[Hinterland]

Looking strictly at the CF% or FF%, sure your argument is maybe a little valid (but not really). However, when you look at the CFrel and FFrel, you get a direct comparison of shot attempts compared to teammates when said player is off the ice to see said players true impact.

Additionally, to further show your point is a steaming pile of nonsense garbage, how does perennial pass-first shoot never Joe Thornton have elite possession numbers since it all depends "mostly on strategy" as opposed to possession? Riddle me that one. O-zone starts have an effect obviously and the stat is not an end all be all (high danger scoring chances for/against is a great supplement to CF/FF%) , but it is most definitely the best place to start when it comes to measuring possession and a players effect on the game over the course of a season. If your team shoots more than the other team when you are on the ice, there are generally less chances for the other team to put the puck in the net when you are out there as opposed to you putting it in theirs (which is kind of the goal of hockey).

You're not gonna win that argument. Too many things factoring in...things you need to know before you decide that a player is bad because of advanced stats alone. Just look at what it did to Florida. Ownership thought that advanced stats are the next big thing, "promoted" who wants nothing to do with advanced stats, promoted Rowe and hired some kids who know numbers but not hockey. Tallon built a team ready to compete and they destroyed it all. Amazingly, Tallon recovered pretty quickly but Florida would be a different team with Tallon always in charge of hockey operations and Gallant still coaching. You can also ask the babyface from Toronto. Based on advanced stats he thought it would be a good idea to let Kessel go for cheap. Rutherford said thank you very much.