Should Burke be given one extra year to redeem himself?

[PugFugly]

I know it was a longer time ago, but didn't the Oilers win the Cup more recently?

Two different rebuilds, in different stages.

Leafs are rebuilding with Kessel as the key piece, 25 years old, Oilers with Eberle 22 years old.

What does a Stanley Cup 22 years ago have anything to do with the current state of either team?

The Oilers continue to be a bottom feeding team even with all of the top picks they have added so I have no idea why people have set them as the benchmark on how to build a hockey team.

 

[ULF_55]

What does a Stanley Cup 22 years ago have anything to do with the current state of either team?

The Oilers continue to be a bottom feeding team even with all of the top picks they have added so I have no idea why people have set them as the benchmark on how to build a hockey team.

Who said they are the benchmark?

Both are dreadful teams. Both suck. Both have huge problems everywhere.

Leafs are probably 3 year ahead in their rebuild than the Oilers are. I expect Burke's team to be a playoffs team this year, and the Oilers to take another season or two.

Oh, and what happened in the past is in the past, we're looking forward not backwards.

 

[Bomber0104]

What does a Stanley Cup 22 years ago have anything to do with the current state of either team?

The Oilers continue to be a bottom feeding team even with all of the top picks they have added so I have no idea why people have set them as the benchmark on how to build a hockey team.

Because they were bad and elected not to try and fast-track their way out being bad by trading their firsts, trading their prospects, spending on free agents, just to get themselves out of position to snag wicked prospects.

And since they didn't, now they have wicked prospects and players to build around...versus...a bunch of garbage on the Leafs basically because Burke decided to try and fast-track his way out being bad, failing, and now having a collection of garbage with even worse results than when he started (where Edmonton was before picking Hall).

Year nothing in Toronto versus Year Four in Edmonton.

 

[PugFugly]

Read this: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2010/05/19/sp-oilers-plan.html?ref=rss

Teams that went to "the back of the bus" and succeeded also did so while their star players were on Entry Level Contracts.

Hall and Eberle have already gotten their first payday and Nugent-Hopkins and Schultz are set to get theirs after next season. It'll certainly be interesting to see how they manage to keep this roster together long term.

 

[achtungbaby]

What does a Stanley Cup 22 years ago have anything to do with the current state of either team?

The Oilers continue to be a bottom feeding team even with all of the top picks they have added so I have no idea why people have set them as the benchmark on how to build a hockey team.

How does rattling off the names of our defenseman make them any better than any other teams defenseman in the NHL?

The Leafs continue to be a bottom feeding team even with Burke's accelerated rebuild so I have no idea why people have set them as any better than the other teams we've shared the cellar with during the past CBA.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Because they were bad and elected not to try and fast-track their way out being bad by trading their firsts, trading their prospects, spending on free agents, just to get themselves out of position to snag wicked prospects.

And since they didn't, now they have wicked prospects and players to build around...versus...a bunch of garbage on the Leafs basically because Burke decided to try and fast-track his way out being bad, failing, and now having a collection of garbage with even worse results than when he started (where Edmonton was before picking Hall).

Year nothing in Toronto versus Year Four in Edmonton.

Apparently you missed the part where the only thing that prevented them from losing all those players was another team matching their offer sheet?

You appear to have rewritten history.

 

[Bomber0104]

Teams that went to "the back of the bus" and succeeded also did so while their star players were on Entry Level Contracts.

Hall and Eberle have already gotten their first payday and Nugent-Hopkins and Schultz are set to get theirs after next season. It'll certainly be interesting to see how they manage to keep this roster together long term.

Doughty was paid well this past year. The Pens are always a contender and that is because they have these superstars who they are glad to pay well. Chicago too is quite happy to pay Toews his money (I would be anyway, great player).

Without going to the back of the bus, teams would never have had those players to begin with.

Why wouldn't you want multiple superstar players? No one here complains about Phil Kessel being paid his cheque. Why would other teams, for better players?

 

[LeafsNation75]

What does a Stanley Cup 22 years ago have anything to do with the current state of either team?

The Oilers continue to be a bottom feeding team even with all of the top picks they have added so I have no idea why people have set them as the benchmark on how to build a hockey team.

I have seen other people make the argument that other teams like the Penguins and Blackhawks were horrible for a long time that it got them very good draft picks. However what they seem to forget is they also signed good UFA's that also helped them win their Stanley Cups. So it wasn't just because of their draft picks that they happened to start winning.

Although besides the Oilers one team who has had top 5 picks from 2008 - 2012 was the New York Islanders and they still haven't come close to contending for the Playoffs. So how come they haven't got any better? In 2008 they had the 5th overall pick (later traded to Toronto so we could select Luke Schenn and eventually selected Josh Bailey 9th overall) 2009 1st overall they selected John Tavares, 2010 5th overall they selected Nino Niederreiter, 2011 5th overall they selected Ryan Strome and 2012 4th overall they selected Griffin Reinhart.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Actually the evidence suggests the Oilers were better defensively last year.

Seems you are unfamiliar with the Oilers defence prospects. They have more than just Schultz .

I absolutey despise Edmonton (and Calgary) and have done so since the Oilers dynasty. Rooted against them in their miracle cup run with Captain Canada Ryan Smyth leading the team......but that doesn't change the fact that I would swap teams with them in a heartbeat. Leafs fans think that the Leafs D is in better shape....sure. More delusion. A lot of people blame goaltending for the Leafs problems. Joke. Although its definitely not a strength of the team...its hardly the only weakness of this team. The D isnt great...despite all those superstars in Phaneuf, Liles etc....about as over-rated as the GM that brought them here. Their forward group is smallish and soft...not winning alot of puck battles and not great defensively either. The goaltending issue really shows up a lot worse than it actually is, IMO because of the poor and sloppy play of the D and forward group. How is it that every goalie who straps on pads regardless of their performances on other squads, absolutely suck for the Leafs? How? Is this a co-incidence Holmes?

Oh boy what a tough nut to crack....Poor goaltending so they employ a run and gun system that absolutely demands stellar goaltending. Now that is smart management. If joe fan thinks the goaltending is sub-par, why doesn't the management? And if they do or did, why are they employing a system that demands their goalies be exceptional? Or is that just another one of Brian's "oversights?" More excuses for this pathetic experienced manager than afforded to the rookie puppet GM previous to him...

 

[achtungbaby]

Teams that went to "the back of the bus" and succeeded also did so while their star players were on Entry Level Contracts.

Hall and Eberle have already gotten their first payday and Nugent-Hopkins and Schultz are set to get theirs after next season. It'll certainly be interesting to see how they manage to keep this roster together long term.

I'd rather be worrying about how we're going to keep our star players vs. worrying about not having enough of them. That's a much better problem to have.

 

[Bomber0104]

Apparently you missed the part where the only thing that prevented them from losing all those players was another team matching their offer sheet?

You appear to have rewritten history.

For who? Vanek and Penner?

I'm guessing they were glad that happened and changed their strategy to the current one of not obtaining free agents, and not trading picks and prospects for fast-tracking.

That was back in 2007. A lot can change in 3 years...and it did since they decided to regroup and pick up Hall in 2010, Nuge in 2011, and Yakupov in 2012.

 

[Bomber0104]

I think most reasonable people understand how much better Edmonton's strategy of patient regrouping has been than Burkes impatient accelerated rebuild.

 

[CellarDweller0]

You've got a good point, but the so-called "realists" can only evaluate the job done by the GM who has the job presently.

Their evaluation appears closer to reality than the one of the so-called "apologists".

He has done very good things (a magician at trades most of the times) but the results, as of now, are not impressive.

Realist is subjective and completely based on perception. I believe myself to be more the realist than the current so called "realists" because I think Burke has done a pretty good job given what was handed to him and to be clear that would be an aging team of veterans and empty cupboards in the minors. Today he has arguably a team that is not better in the standings (yet) but a team with a much brighter future that will surpass the success of the old team.

I can play the "realist" game too.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

For who? Vanek and Penner?

I'm guessing they were glad that happened and changed their strategy to the current one of not obtaining free agents, and not trading picks and prospects for fast-tracking.

That was back in 2007. A lot can change in 3 years...and it did since they decided to regroup and pick up Hall in 2010, Nuge in 2011, and Yakupov in 2012.

So you ARE aware that it wasn't the grand master plan you make it out to be and that in fact they very much were fine with surrendering countless first rounders.

It never ceases to amaze me how people overlook these things.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I think most reasonable people understand how much better Edmonton's strategy of patient regrouping has been than Burkes impatient accelerated rebuild.

I think most people who don't rewrite history realize Edmonton's end result was far from their "strategy".

 

[CellarDweller0]

I think most people who don't rewrite history realize Edmonton's end result was far from their "strategy".

Not to mention that they have a stable up their arses getting 3 first rounder 3 years in a row. I'll bet I'll never see that in my lifetime again, EVER, even if a team tried. They seriously hit the jackpot and borderlines on conspiracy.

 

[Bomber0104]

So you ARE aware that it wasn't the grand master plan you make it out to be and that in fact they very much were fine with surrendering countless first rounders.

It never ceases to amaze me how people overlook these things.

They were in the off-season of 2007...two seasons removed from making the Stanley Cup finals.

Has it not occurred to you that a strategy can change over the course of five, six, seven years?

LOL

 

[PugFugly]

Doughty was paid well this past year. The Pens are always a contender and that is because they have these superstars who they are glad to pay well. Chicago too is quite happy to pay Toews his money (I would be anyway, great player).

Without going to the back of the bus, teams would never have had those players to begin with.

Why wouldn't you want multiple superstar players? No one here complains about Phil Kessel being paid his cheque. Why would other teams, for better players?

The Kings had the best goalie in the league making the same money as James Reimer, the Pens haven't won anything since they gave out those big contracts and just had to unload Staal for futures and Chicago barely made the playoffs after dealing away Ladd, Byfuglien, Versteeg, etc.

Star players don't win cups, teams do. Burke has managed to clear payroll and has left us with a deep farm system that has a lot of exciting prospects, even if some of them are projects. It's really premature to judge his work when the first player he drafted is still only 22.

 

[Bomber0104]

The Kings had the best goalie in the league making the same money as James Reimer, the Pens haven't won anything since they gave out those big contracts and just had to unload Staal for futures and Chicago barely made the playoffs after dealing away Ladd, Byfuglien, Versteeg, etc.

Star players don't win cups, teams do. Burke has managed to clear payroll and has left us with a deep farm system that has a lot of exciting prospects, even if some of them are projects. It's really premature to judge his work when the first player he drafted is still only 22.

Yeah the Pens and Blackhawks have only been making the playoffs each and every year and have Cups as of late.

Why wouldn't you want the Leafs to do that?

 

[Leafs87]

I kind of want to see what Burke can do before shipping him off. We keep switching GM's, lets be patient and see what he can do. Last year showed some promise, but since their a young team they just sh** the bed out of no where.

 

[Bomber0104]

I think most people who don't rewrite history realize Edmonton's end result was far from their "strategy".

I'm not rewriting history, I apparently just have a better recollection and know the context of the Oilers motivation to offer sheet back in 2007.

Explain to me how offer sheeting someone two seasons after making the Stanley Cup finals is the same as sending two firsts out the door after finishing in 7th last.

Then please explain why you feel the Oilers' strategy hasn't changed since then.

 

[PugFugly]

I'd rather be worrying about how we're going to keep our star players vs. worrying about not having enough of them. That's a much better problem to have.

If you are paying a player big money, does it matter if you acquired them through the draft or via free agency?

The Rangers acquired their 3 best forwards via free agency and trade. The only star player they developed in that time (although a true superstar) was Henrik Lundqvist.

We came out of the last lockout with no young assets and no cap space. We're coming out of this one with among the most cap space and a ton of young assets that can be moved to fill holes. While, I'm not expecting big things if there is a season in 2012-2013, I think we're one of the better positioned teams moving forward.

 

[Bomber0104]

If you are paying a player big money, does it matter if you acquired them through the draft or via free agency?

Yes. The most valuable players dont change teams because their team likes them. And even if they did, they wouldnt want to come to a last place team like the leafs, in a brutal tax district, And Burke says he doesnt sign players longer than 5 years so no player likes that either, and they probably dont appreciate the circus that is the Leafs anyway.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

They were in the off-season of 2007...two seasons removed from making the Stanley Cup finals.

Has it not occurred to you that a strategy can change over the course of five, six, seven years?

LOL

Which one?

When they acquired Garon, Souray, Penner, and offersheeted Vanek?

When they traded Stoll for Visnovsky? Pitkanen for Cole? A 2nd for Kotalik?

Maybe you mean when they signed Khabibulin?

Yup. The Oilers sure did plan their "strategy".

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I'm not rewriting history, I apparently just have a better recollection and know the context of the Oilers motivation to offer sheet back in 2007.

Explain to me how offer sheeting someone two seasons after making the Stanley Cup finals is the same as sending two firsts out the door after finishing in 7th last.

Then please explain why you feel the Oilers' strategy hasn't changed since then.

Apparently you also remember very little about that Stanley Cup run.