Should Burke be given one extra year to redeem himself?

[Bomber0104]

Which one?

When they acquired Garon, Souray, Penner, and offersheeted Vanek?

When they traded Stoll for Visnovsky? Pitkanen for Cole? A 2nd for Kotalik?

Maybe you mean when they signed Khabibulin?

Yup. The Oilers sure did plan their "strategy".

Maybe they changed their strategy when they realized those types of Brian Burke style moves don't help your team.

They then changed the strategy (as per Kevin Lowe's comments) and started getting back to drafting and developing (circa 2010-present)

This is plainly obvious but only a Brian Burke fan could dismiss this as a random series of events (not signing anyone, not trading picks/first rounders/prospects for fast track help).

It's actually funny how you are dismissing Kevin Lowe's words and actions. Your opinion means very little on the matter. The results speak for themselves...Kevin Lowe chose to suck/"tank" and pick up wicked prospects.

The Leafs chose to "go for it" and now they suck and have worse prospects and future then Oilers.

Please stop trying to re-write history.

 

[PugFugly]

Yeah the Pens and Blackhawks have only been making the playoffs each and every year and have Cups as of late.

Why wouldn't you want the Leafs to do that?

My point is that the window for contention during these tank years is while star players are on their entry level deals, and that window is already closing for the Oilers.

Chicago has struggled with depth and goaltending ever since giving out those paydays and made the playoffs by 2 points after winning the cup. Pittsburgh has already had to deal one of their top 2 drafted players and have $56 million in cap committed to 15 players going into next season (not to mention the health concerns of their $17.4 million duo).

Aside from the Kessel deal, Burke has done a great job of bringing in young players to fill our bottom 6 at a low cost. He's also managed to build one of the deepest prospect pools with regards to defensemen in the league, which should have considerable trade value in the coming years with the contracts being given out to free agent defensemen. The Schenn for Van Riemsdyk was just the start IMO.

 

[Bomber0104]

My point is that the window for contention during these tank years is while star players are on their entry level deals, and that window is already closing for the Oilers.

No it isnt. Better to have too much than not enough and deal the extra away. Like Boston did when they couldnt afford Kessel (netted them Tyler Seguin). Like the Pens did with Staal (netted them Sutter + a top pick).

The Oilers best days are ahead of them.

 

[Bomber0104]

Aside from the Kessel deal, Burke has done a great job of bringing in young players to fill our bottom 6 at a low cost.

Armstrong, Lombardi, Steckel, Crabb, Brown, Orr, Sjostrom, Wallin?

Yeah, no.

He's also managed to build one of the deepest prospect pools with regards to defensemen in the league, which should have considerable trade value in the coming years with the contracts being given out to free agent defensemen. The Schenn for Van Riemsdyk was just the start IMO.

You'd think the scouting panels we see around hockey would have taken notice by now then.

We have average prospects according to them.

 

[Bomber0104]

Why is it that the anti-Burke people always have to fact-check and correct incorrect statements from those who like Burke?>

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Maybe they changed their strategy when they realized those types of Brian Burke style moves don't help your team.

They then changed the strategy (as per Kevin Lowe's comments) and started getting back to drafting and developing (circa 2010-present)

This is plainly obvious but only a Brian Burke fan could dismiss this as a random series of events (not signing anyone, not trading picks/first rounders/prospects for fast track help).

It's actually funny how you are dismissing Kevin Lowe's words and actions. Your opinion means very little on the matter. The results speak for themselves...Kevin Lowe chose to suck/"tank" and pick up wicked prospects.

The Leafs chose to "go for it" and now they suck and have worse prospects and future then Oilers.

Please stop trying to re-write history.

I thought you didn't believe in rewarding failure?

 

[Bomber0104]

I thought you didn't believe in rewarding failure?

Hahaha.

So now you've dropped your revision of history?

I believe it matters not what I personally think of the RULES THE LEAGUE DESIGNED.

I believe it matters how competent or incompetent your teams mangager is in exploiting them for an advantage over others.

 

[PugFugly]

No it isnt. Better to have too much than not enough and deal the extra away. Like Boston did when they couldnt afford Kessel (netted them Tyler Seguin). Like the Pens did with Staal (netted them Sutter + a top pick).

The Oilers best days are ahead of them.

Bruins succeeded because of their depth and because they picked up their best player via free agency, not because they tanked for high multiple top 3 picks.

Also of note: that team saw Marchand, Lucic and Krejci breakout years at age 22-23. The oldest of Burke's prospects is 22.

 

[PugFugly]

Armstrong, Lombardi, Steckel, Crabb, Brown, Orr, Sjostrom, Wallin?

Yeah, no.



You'd think the scouting panels we see around hockey would have taken notice by now then.

We have average prospects according to them.

Funny how you don't even read the information listed on the very site you are posting on....

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/teams/toronto_maple_leafs/

STRENGTHS

Gritty bottom-six forwards with good size
Character players in all positions
Two-way defenseman

WEAKNESSES

Top-end talent in goal and at forward

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Hahaha.

So now you've dropped your revision of history?

I believe it matters not what I personally think of the RULES THE LEAGUE DESIGNED.

I believe it matters how competent or incompetent your teams mangager is in exploiting them for an advantage over others.

Since I've re-written nothing, I don't know what you mean. If you think the Oilers didn't continue acquiring vets as well as trading younger guys for vets between 2010 and 2012, you'd be sadly mistken. You'd be correct that they continued to suck. So much so that they may have set a record (has there been another team - non-expansion - get 1st overall 3 times in a row before?).

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

That wasn't the question....

What was your prediction for Bozak?

My prediction was that if Burke got a real number 1 center last season, then Bozak would have been playing on the Marlies.

But because our GM is terrible at his job, we'll never know.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

I think most people who don't rewrite history realize Edmonton's end result was far from their "strategy".

I think their strategy was 100% to rebuild through the draft.
It just worked out better than they expected.
It's a combination of luck and a good GM with the patience to do things properly.

Unlike the leafs, which was a combination of... well... nothing. We just have a GM that's an idiot.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

GA has very little to do with their defense. That's a team stat.

You're funny.

Unless you were joking, of course.

In which case, you're really funny.

 

[BlueBaron]

I think their strategy was 100% to rebuild through the draft.
It just worked out better than they expected.
It's a combination of luck and a good GM with the patience to do things properly.

Unlike the leafs, which was a combination of... well... nothing. We just have a GM that's an idiot.

Just because you don't agree with the way a professional GM with a cup ring does his rebuild does not make him an idiot, in fact it is more likely the problem is with you.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Had nothing to do with Khabby's hot start. EDM only let in 20 goals in the first 13 games.

Which means they played the final 69 games at a 260ga/82gp pace.

You're becoming an expert at weak arguments...

And your numbers are wrong.

Edmonton allowed 232 goals last year. Don't forget that the standings give every team a Goal For for every SO win and a Goal Against for every SO loss.

In their first 13 games, they gave up 18 GA (2 SO losses).

So their pace for the last 69 games is 254 and not 260.

The Leafs gave up 259 goals.

If you take out a very good 13 games stretch (games 36 to 48) during which they gave up 31 goals, their pace for the other 69 games is 271.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Hopefully this won't happen but if Brian Burke see's that Kessel doesn't want to re-sign before he becomes a UFA, he will trade him and get something good in return.

Is anyone aware of the nature of the limited NTC/NMC that Kessel has in 2013-2014?

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

I have seen other people make the argument that other teams like the Penguins and Blackhawks were horrible for a long time that it got them very good draft picks. However what they seem to forget is they also signed good UFA's that also helped them win their Stanley Cups. So it wasn't just because of their draft picks that they happened to start winning.

Although besides the Oilers one team who has had top 5 picks from 2008 - 2012 was the New York Islanders and they still haven't come close to contending for the Playoffs. So how come they haven't got any better? In 2008 they had the 5th overall pick (later traded to Toronto so we could select Luke Schenn and eventually selected Josh Bailey 9th overall) 2009 1st overall they selected John Tavares, 2010 5th overall they selected Nino Niederreiter, 2011 5th overall they selected Ryan Strome and 2012 4th overall they selected Griffin Reinhart.

So Tambellini and Snow are now the benchmarks used to determine if Burke has done a good job?

Low expectations.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Realist is subjective and completely based on perception. I believe myself to be more the realist than the current so called "realists" because I think Burke has done a pretty good job given what was handed to him and to be clear that would be an aging team of veterans and empty cupboards in the minors. Today he has arguably a team that is not better in the standings (yet) but a team with a much brighter future that will surpass the success of the old team.

I can play the "realist" game too.

You surely have noticed that I put both realist and apologists in quotation marks and used the term so-called because they are only labels often used on this Board and as such have nothing to do with stating that the persons thus identified are in fact realistic or apologistic.

If you want to join the so-called "realists", feel free to do so.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

Just because you don't agree with the way a professional GM with a cup ring does his rebuild does not make him an idiot, in fact it is more likely the problem is with you.

After four years our team doesn't score more goals, doesn't prevent more goals, doesn't win more games, and has lower rated prospects according to lists made by professional nhl scouts.

All after four bottom 10 finishes.

That is flat out idiocy.

Based on the facts Burke is a very stupid person.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

My point is that the window for contention during these tank years is while star players are on their entry level deals, and that window is already closing for the Oilers.

Chicago has struggled with depth and goaltending ever since giving out those paydays and made the playoffs by 2 points after winning the cup. Pittsburgh has already had to deal one of their top 2 drafted players and have $56 million in cap committed to 15 players going into next season (not to mention the health concerns of their $17.4 million duo).

Aside from the Kessel deal, Burke has done a great job of bringing in young players to fill our bottom 6 at a low cost. He's also managed to build one of the deepest prospect pools with regards to defensemen in the league, which should have considerable trade value in the coming years with the contracts being given out to free agent defensemen. The Schenn for Van Riemsdyk was just the start IMO.

Here's my problem with your post...

you simply ignore the important information (after 4 bottom 10 finishes, professional nhl scouts rank our prospects WORSE, we're lower in the standings after 4 years, don't score more goals, don't prevent more goals, etc) and then cling to pathetically trivial information as examples of Burkes success (like saying 'he filled our bottom 6 at a low cost').

Sure... if you ignore all of the important information (which mostly reflects TERRIBLY on Burke), and cling to a few little tiny victories... then you're right... Burke seems like a good GM.
The problem is that once you assess ALL information (and not just stat mined trivial successes along the way) then Burke starts to look like a humiliating disgrace of a GM.

 

[charliolemieux]

You're becoming an expert at weak arguments...

And your numbers are wrong.

Edmonton allowed 232 goals last year. Don't forget that the standings give every team a Goal For for every SO win and a Goal Against for every SO loss.

In their first 13 games, they gave up 18 GA (2 SO losses).

So their pace for the last 69 games is 254 and not 260.

The Leafs gave up 259 goals.

If you take out a very good 13 games stretch (games 36 to 48) during which they gave up 31 goals, their pace for the other 69 games is 271.

I didn't count the SO goals at all.

And once again you twist the meaning.

I know Khabby was lights out for EDM early on. At one point his sv% was above .970%

And 20 goals over 13 games is an incredible rate. One they did not continue.

 

[LeafsNation75]

So Tambellini and Snow are now the benchmarks used to determine if Burke has done a good job?

Low expectations.

I never said either one of them was an example to compare the job Burke has done. All I said was the Islanders were another example of a team that has had high 1st round picks the last 5 years and they don't seem any closer to making the Playoffs.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Is anyone aware of the nature of the limited NTC/NMC that Kessel has in 2013-2014?

According to The Fourth Period it just says limited; details unknown about Kessel's No-Movement Clause.
http://www.thefourthperiod.com/trade_deadline/notrades.html

However it also said Luke Schenn had a No-Trade Clause along with limited; details unknown about it and we all know Burke was able trade him to Philadelphia. Now the only thing we don't know is did Burke ask him to waive it? Anyway the point is if no one knew what was involved with Schenn's deal then I can't see Burke having a problem trading Kessel if it ever came to that.

 

[charliolemieux]

Doughty was paid well this past year. The Pens are always a contender and that is because they have these superstars who they are glad to pay well. Chicago too is quite happy to pay Toews his money (I would be anyway, great player).

Without going to the back of the bus, teams would never have had those players to begin with.

Why wouldn't you want multiple superstar players? No one here complains about Phil Kessel being paid his cheque. Why would other teams, for better players?

PIT has already moved Staal, and are by some accounts unhappy with Fleury.

CHI would love to still be paying Byfuglien.

LAK Moved a former #3 overall pick for an older former 11th overall pick.

Just some facts.

 

[The Apologist]

For who? Vanek and Penner?

I'm guessing they were glad that happened and changed their strategy to the current one of not obtaining free agents, and not trading picks and prospects for fast-tracking.

That was back in 2007. A lot can change in 3 years...and it did since they decided to regroup and pick up Hall in 2010, Nuge in 2011, and Yakupov in 2012.

So wait, teams can change their strategies? Are you sure about that?