WTFMAN99
Registered User
- Jun 17, 2009
- 34,650
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Tocchet or Trotz?
I don't know if Trotz comes in for a lame duck GM like Dubas though.
I don't know if Trotz comes in for a lame duck GM like Dubas though.
Sheldon Keefe Discussion Thread
- Thread starter The Masters
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I agree with you that players have their shares of fault. But this case could be made for any coach and no coach would ever be fired
Problem is he was never the right guy for the job. Every year some AHL coach wins the Calder cup but that doesn't mean he's qualified or he'll get a job in NHL
Not particularly with city like Toronto. This is Yankees, bayern Munich, Manchester united. You don't just get a job, you have to earn it. Winning in AHL is not earning it
Become an assistant coach somewhere else, learn the trades, make the connections, learn on the job in NHL level then apply for toronto effing maple leafs. When you earned your colors
The fact is toronto maple leafs organization sees themselves as Macdonalds. The starting point from everyone
Keefe is learning on the job. He should have been hired for Arizona. All 5 of their fans won't get upset or won't see his flaws
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A rookie analytics GM and a Rookie coach what did we expect.
Dubas has changed his theory of hockey so many times .
First he wanted to roll 4 lines of skill didn't work 2 yrs in a row ( playoffs ).
Then trades for toughness didn't work .
We didn't need a GM to think he could change how the playoffs were played. It's a dog fight.
He is always enfizising speed but sandin and Lilly don't have speed on defence.
Alot of our pucks don't.
Now the coach is saying our d can't move the puck. My question is what do they do.
Dubas has changed his theory of hockey so many times .
First he wanted to roll 4 lines of skill didn't work 2 yrs in a row ( playoffs ).
Then trades for toughness didn't work .
We didn't need a GM to think he could change how the playoffs were played. It's a dog fight.
He is always enfizising speed but sandin and Lilly don't have speed on defence.
Alot of our pucks don't.
Now the coach is saying our d can't move the puck. My question is what do they do.
TRAIKOS: Why Sheldon Keefe's dig at the Maple Leafs' defence may have also been a not-so-subtle jab at GM Kyle Dubas
“Starts with D,” Maple Leafs head coach Sheldon Keefe told reporters following a 4-3 overtime loss to the San Jose Sharks on Thursday.
torontosun.com
At first, the problem was Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner and their inability to find the back of the net. Now that the so-called “elite” forwards are finally producing, the problem is now Toronto’s defence and their inability to keep the puck out of their own net.
“Starts with D,” Maple Leafs head coach Sheldon Keefe told reporters following a 4-3 overtime loss to the San Jose Sharks on Thursday. “Their touches. Their first touch has to be better.”
We presume that up next in this ongoing blame game will be the goaltending. And then the power play. Or the penalty kill. Or maybe Keefe will run out of options and point the finger at himself. But after years and years of living in a home where the stairs still creak and the windows don’t close like they’re supposed to, when do you stop blaming the workers and instead shift the focus to the architect that designed the house in the first place?
Listen closely. We might already be there.
When asked if changing around the defence pairings might help in the same way that it helped the forwards, Keefe told reporters: “I don’t see that that would change anything.”
At first, it sounded like a not-so-subtle dig at the personnel, specifically defencemen Justin Holl and Rasmus Sandin, who haven’t looked much like NHLers in the first few weeks of the season. But if you read between the lines, it’s clear that Keefe’s comment was meant for Kyle Dubas and his construction of a team that is no closer to winning a championship today than it was when he took over as general manager five years ago.
Yes, the team is missing defencemen Jake Muzzin, who might be out for the season with a neck injury, as well as Timothy Liljegren and Jordie Benn. But even if they were all healthy, this defence is not good enough or deep enough to advance to the second round of the playoffs — much less reach the Stanley Cup final.
That’s on Dubas more than it is on Keefe. And it’s not just the defence that’s causing the problems.
thewave
Toronto Maple Leafs Toy Co.
- Jun 17, 2011
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Are you suggesting that all tandems are equal? They aren't you know. Dubas is a preacher of some strange conceptualized reinvention of the game. It doesn't work. For the level of talent on the ice over the past years, it's a catastrophic failure second to no other.
I'm saying that writing somebody off because they're a rookie is stupid, which is pretty obvious considering the last 3 cups were won by a team with rookie GMs and coaches.
Last year's Cup winner even wanted specifically Dubas.
He's really not, and I'm not sure how this myth started.
"Catastrophic failure second to no other". Can we stop with the silly hyperbole?
Also, it's weird when people seem to think they're entitled to a cup, but then blame the person who put together the roster with that potential, instead of the ones who didn't perform to that potential.
thewave
Toronto Maple Leafs Toy Co.
- Jun 17, 2011
- 44,320
- 14,862
I don't understand your point of view.
The goal of hockey is to win a cup
Matthews is at the tail end of his contract and his clause starts 2023.
The players don't really have good drive
We have not won a series in 6 years.
Dubas failure is complete. He has no 3rd or 4th line and a weak tandem in net.
It's really not hard to understand that the guy is done. Keefe too. There is nothing to salvage and only things to repair regarding his tenure here.
Mickey Marner
Registered User
I wonder if the defense will give Keefe a stern talking to as well.
None of this really addresses the discussion, but I don't understand your point of view.
The goal of hockey is to win a cup, and we have a top-tier team capable of that. Barely losing some playoff series in our past does not change that.
Matthews still has multiple years left on his contract, and he is likely to be here for the next decade+.
There's nothing wrong with the "drive" of our players.
We have a 3rd and 4th line, and it's way too early to draw many conclusions about them. If we're going by this small sample, I don't know how you simultaneously argue that we have weak goalies when Samsonov is a top-5 goaltender so far this year.
Dubas will likely be here for a while, but if he does end up getting fired, he has left the team in a really good position.
Dreakmur
Registered User
We technically have 3rd and 4th lines, but they aren’t very good and they get less effective when the games get tough in the playoffs.
While last 3 stanly cup were won by rookie gms, there's a bit of caviat to that
2 of them was won by Tampa Bay Lighting. Their GM is a guy name Julian Brisebois
- NHL Montreal Canadiens (Director of Hockey Operations) 2003-2006
- NHL Montreal Canadiens (VP. of Hockey Operations) 2006-2010
- AHL Hamilton Bulldogs (General Manager) 2007-2010
- NHL Tampa Bay Lightning (Assistant General Manager) 2010-2018
- AHL Norfolk Admirals (General Manager) 2010-2012
- AHL Syracuse Crunch (General Manager) 2012-2019
- NHL Tampa Bay Lightning (General Manager/VP. of Hockey Operations) 2018-present
He earned his right to be a GM in this league. He has long established and his roots in NHL hockey
He was director of operations in a team like Montreal Canadians. The mecca of hockey
He didn't just walk into a silly job after a 2 year internship under Lou like Kyle did and managing AHL team
There's a difference in just being a rookie. Julian is essentially the Sergei Makarov of NHL gms. Winning rookie of the year at the age of 32 where Julian becoming a GM at his age .
Are we goign to talk about Joe Sakic? sure.. Lets talk about the other rookie GM who was a legend in his own right playing the actual game. Who himself like Steve Y won Stanly cups, Olympics
Who himself knows what it takes to win. Players look at him differently. When he says this is what it takes to win, players will listen because he has done it
I can assure you just because all 3 of them are rookie GMs ( Dubas, Sakic and Julian) doesn't mean they are in the same stratosphere
If you are going to get a rookie GM, get a rookie GM. Make sure he's qualified. Make sure he understands the game. Make sure he has played the game. Paid his dues in some capacity
If it was Roberto Luongo, no problem.
Sean Burke, no problem
Kyle Dubas was just a Soo Grey Hound GM, then a AHL GM. There are 30 other AHL GMs will never become NHL gms in their lives. That's not how it works . Not with a historic franchise
If you are going to be a rookie GM make sure your coach isn't rookie either. You get to have one key positiion for rookies
Toronto Maple Leafs organization has really turned into the MacDondalds of hockey
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What you're saying is essentially agreeing with me that "don't hire rookies, they'll obviously fail" is a ridiculously simplistic and incorrect statement that doesn't accurately convey their qualifications for the role or abilities in the job. Unfortunately, you then go on trying to make arbitrary distinctions between rookie GMs that there's really little difference between.
Brisebois' role with Montreal and Sakic playing really have zero relevance to their abilities as GM. Sakic was actually the least qualified of the three. At least Brisebois and Dubas had prior managing experience as assistant GMs, and both built a team in the next highest league and won with it.
And Sakic actually tried to hire Dubas for GM before we even did, so that kind of puts you in a pickle - do you trust his judgement or not?
We have 3rd and 4th lines, and while they've had a rough start, we shouldn't be drawing conclusions about them and how they'll play in the playoffs 8 games into the season and half a year before playoffs even start.
We don't even know what our 3rd and 4th lines will settle as yet for this season, let alone what it will be and how it will look in the playoffs.
HoweHullOrr
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2013
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LOL. We lost to the CBJ & Montreal. Trying to whitewash a tar pit won't work.
Dreakmur
Registered User
We know they will be populated by guys like Kerfoot, Jarnkrook, and Engvall. We know how that works out…
leafsfan5
Registered User
- Jun 14, 2014
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Those 3 guys have a combined 8 goals in 129 playoff games lmao
The difference between TBay and Colorado is unlike Dubas they didn't try to change the game.
Maybe because they played the game .
They understand that the playoffs is a war.
They understand that you need different elements for a team to be successful.
Dubas thought you could have
Gilmour1996
Registered User
- Oct 16, 2022
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They are not so silly. A group of players with leadership ability and heart, playing for a team that the GM built correctly, can overcome the deficiencies of the coach.
Ianturnedbull
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- Jun 11, 2022
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dubey
$$$$$$$*NICE*$$$$$$$ 69 in 79 $$$$$$$*NICE*$$$$$$$
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 83,105
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I'm not liking Keefe's impact on this team but it's painfully obvious all of our problems stem from shoddy roster construction. There's almost $10 million in LTIR money that blew up in the GM's face on the first week of the season. Muzzin was on the books and Murray was such an own goal of epic proportions. Keefe will likely be the first to go because of rank, but really it should be the GM first.
The Masters
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- Jun 30, 2018
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Keefe will stay this season is my guess. Him and Dubas packaged deal. Shanny will fire both at the same time (if its even shanny)
Eternal Leaf
Registered User
It's easy to blame the coach.
At some point, it comes back to the players. The effort is not as strong as it needs to be and I have a feeling they believe in the idea of coasting into the playoffs.
At some point, it comes back to the players. The effort is not as strong as it needs to be and I have a feeling they believe in the idea of coasting into the playoffs.
