Shanahan's biggest gaffe shows he's out of touch: revisiting the "Discounts" quote

[centipede2233]

Shanahan has done an amazing job …………….. at trying to get fired.

 

[Beneven Stanciano]

If another team offered him 12 million then it would be a 12 million cap hit. I don't think signing bonuses effect the cap hit.

Signing bonuses absolutely count towards the cap.

 

[Stonehands1990]

Signing bonuses absolutely count towards the cap.

They don’t affect the AAV

 

[sittler rules!!!]

It is unreal. This organization has more resources than any in the entire NHL and this is what we end up with. You’re 100% spot on.

Shanahan has now been here for SEVEN years without a playoff win. He is nothing but a politician. Chris Chelios said this when Shanny was hired. He’s just a politician and shouldn’t be running an NHL organization. He has been proven right. It is imperative that Shanny gets fired ASAP.

Take Dubas, Keefe and the Marners with him.

 

[sittler rules!!!]

based on term and in JT's case performance

Mathews - 2m
Marner - 1.8
Willie -500
Tavares - 2m and maybe even 3-3,5 m based solely on last season

i've got 6.3 to 7.3-7.8 m in overpayments

I shake out at 11 to 13 mill. 2 million over for Taveras, 10 million over for the Marners (Paul & Mitch) Here is an idea. Fire Shanny and make Paul Marner the president. That way little Mitchie can be captain.

 

[hullsy47]

Shanahan has done an amazing job …………….. at trying to get fired.

He is no Sam pollock

 

[Arzak]

8. Kyle Dubas, TOR 5 (1-0-0)

I bet Kyle voted for himself, just to improve his stats in excel sheet.

No second or third votes , just one big fan ...

 

[Bluelines]

Him and Grundstrom on the King's are his biggest draft success outside of the top 5 selections. And imo a #5 D man and 4th liner (so far) isn't much to brag about.

Especially considering the team had 5 2nd round picks in that 2015-17 period and were top of the draft pecking order in '16 .and unless Lily finally cements a roster spot (hoping be does) the teams '17 draft class may not return a single NHL caliber player.

Imo a fairly disappointing period for the Leafs drafting.

He asked for one, I gave him one.

Disappointing compared to? Most teams picks after the 1 round don't make a major impact, you get a guy here and a guy there tha tis a legit NHLer but its not like every team but the Leafs have had success outside of the 1st round.

Last years cup champs have 6 players from the 2015 to 2017 drafts outside of the 1st round to play games in the NHL, the Leafs have 6 players. Boston 8, Montreal 4, Ottawa 7, Buffalo 7.

Hunter's drafting record is not unusual.

 

[ottomaddox]

Well it's been 23 days since TOR got eliminated by MTL.

There's still no resignations or pink slips.

The first key date for Dubas is July 17th (Protection list of expansion draft deadline). Following that is the Entry Draft on July 23rd.

I suspect that the Managment team is going to be allowed another crack at it.

I don't know. Do you think if they made a big splash that it would instill happiness in the fan base or confidence in the team? I can't imagine they can do anything to keep the angry fans from ripping them at every turn.

 

[rumman]

Well it's been 23 days since TOR got eliminated by MTL.

There's still no resignations or pink slips.

The first key date for Dubas is July 17th (Protection list of expansion draft deadline). Following that is the Entry Draft on July 23rd.

I suspect that the Managment team is going to be allowed another crack at it.

I don't know. Do you think if they made a big splash that it would instill happiness in the fan base or confidence in the team? I can't imagine they can do anything to keep the angry fans from ripping them at every turn.

I have zero trust that the President, GM and current roster of players can fix their mistakes, some because they’re not smart enough, others because there’s no financial incentive to do so.

 

[egd27]

They don’t affect the AAV

What do you mean?

Signing bonuses are part of a player's contract/compensation and are included when figuring out AAV.

 

[Menzinger]

He asked for one, I gave him one.

Disappointing compared to? Most teams picks after the 1 round don't make a major impact, you get a guy here and a guy there tha tis a legit NHLer but its not like every team but the Leafs have had success outside of the 1st round.

Last years cup champs have 6 players from the 2015 to 2017 drafts outside of the 1st round to play games in the NHL, the Leafs have 6 players. Boston 8, Montreal 4, Ottawa 7, Buffalo 7.

Hunter's drafting record is not unusual.

I think it's fair to say the Leafs drafting has seen awful for the last several decades at this point, minus a few instances (2006 comes to mind), and obviously that goes well beyond the Hunter period

For me, what seperates a good front office from the average to mediocre ones is their ability to find impact players beyond the top of the draft (or expensive guys in free agency). Leafs unfortunately have yet to do that at the draft since the start of the rebuild, while teams like Tampa have their best playoff performer be a 3rd round pick from 2014.

Perhaps Hunter unfairly became victim to the media hype surrounding his hire (ie calling him a "draft guru"), but personally I don't see what's to particularly like about Leafs drafting from that period. We could use a talent injection into the roster from the prospect pool, and we just aren't able to get it from those years.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Tavares = overpaid by 1.5 million (maybe 2 million)
Marner = overpaid by 2 million
Matthews = overpaid by 1.5 million
Nylander = fairly paid

Overpaid by 5 million, which helps pay for two solid upgrades at least.

Nylander was not fairly paid. His best two comparables at time of signing were Ehlers and Pastrnak (obviously closer to Ehlers). Look at those players production/contract and compare them to Nyalnders'. The big 3 are all SIGNIFICANTLY overpaid when looking at their direct comparables at time of signing.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

What if a team offered him 12 million on 5 years? What do you do? You let him go? Add Matthews to a bunch of teams and you could've been looking at 4 mid to late round firsts. Matthews also has much more star power then most players... he attracts alot of fans given his pedigree and scoring ability... ownerships would be salivating to get their hands on him.

Not in a million years would a team have offered 12x5, all front-loaded as much as possible in signing bonuses, as well as give up FOUR first round picks. Not in a MILLION years. This is a made up lie of a narrative that only exists in Toronto to defend a cowardly weakling of a gm.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Tavares = overpaid by 1.5 million (maybe 2 million)
Marner = overpaid by 2 million
Matthews = overpaid by 1.5 million
Nylander = fairly paid

Overpaid by 5 million, which helps pay for two solid upgrades at least.

I'd argue it's more for Mitch - somewhere between 2-4 million

 

[Wrong Wilson]

Shanahan has done an amazing job …………….. at trying to get fired.

Still not good enough apparently.

 

[Antropovsky]

Not in a million years would a team have offered 12x5, all front-loaded as much as possible in signing bonuses, as well as give up FOUR first round picks. Not in a MILLION years. This is a made up lie of a narrative that only exists in Toronto to defend a cowardly weakling of a gm.

Not in a million years..? Did you see the signing bonuses Montreal gave out to Aho which would have included a 1st and a 2nd round pick? You don't think Montreal would've offersheeted Matthews?

Flyers were gonna give up 4 first round picks for Weber. Teams would have done it.

Point is there was too much opportunity for an offersheet thst would've put Toronto in a worse position in terms of cap.

 

[4thline]

Not in a million years would a team have offered 12x5, all front-loaded as much as possible in signing bonuses, as well as give up FOUR first round picks. Not in a MILLION years. This is a made up lie of a narrative that only exists in Toronto to defend a cowardly weakling of a gm.

A gm in the cap era gave up equivalent value greater than 4 1st round picks for a player on the equivalent contract of ~13x4 (then a different GM did it again for the same player when his contract was equivalent to ~9x1

A gm in the cap era gave up equivalent value of 3 first picks + for a rental carrying an equivalent cap hit of 12m

A gm in the cap era tried to give up 4 1st round picks for a *winger* with only one season better than a top 6 forward on the equivalent contract of 11.6 x 7

A gm in the cap era gave up a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd for a *winger* with zero 30 goal or 50 point seasons, on the equivalent contract of 7 x 5

A gm in the cap era gave up 2 1sts and a 2nd for a *winger* with no 40 goal or 70 point seasons, on the equivalent contract of 7.75 x 5

A GM in the cap era tried to give up a 1st and a 2nd for a C coming off a 55 point season (only time over 30) on the equivalent contract of 6.3 x 2. Said player would have been lost to waivers.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

based on term and in JT's case performance

Mathews - 2m
Marner - 1.8
Willie -500
Tavares - 2m and maybe even 3-3,5 m based solely on last season

i've got 6.3 to 7.3-7.8 m in overpayments

So basically these players stole either Rielly or hyman's money.

What a greedy bunch of losers.

I would rather trade Marner for picks than give him that contract he'll never live up to.

Dubas must go.

Hockey is a team game, Dubas overpays his top players making a well rounded team impossible.

Top it off that teams just guard Matthews who can't generate his own chances well and without Tavares the only shooter was Nylander.

Poor design. Dubas must go.

Shanny must go as the atmosphere is terrible on the Leafs. Don't start on time. Let up on power plays. Play soft as if it's a religion. There is no winning formula in Toronto.

Kucherov Tavares is our only hope for getting out of the first round.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

So basically these players stole either Rielly or hyman's money.

What a greedy bunch of losers.

I would rather trade Marner for picks than give him that contract he'll never live up to.

Dubas must go.

Hockey is a team game, Dubas overpays his top players making a well rounded team impossible.

Top it off that teams just guard Matthews who can't generate his own chances well and without Tavares the only shooter was Nylander.

Poor design. Dubas must go.

Shanny must go as the atmosphere is terrible on the Leafs. Don't start on time. Let up on power plays. Play soft as if it's a religion. There is no winning formula in Toronto.

Kucherov Tavares is our only hope for getting out of the first round.

My question for you is, how do we even make the playoffs without Tavares next year? We may miss with him so idk if we make it without him even with that 11m in cap space

 

[HamiltonNHL]

My question for you is, how do we even make the playoffs without Tavares next year? We may miss with him so idk if we make it without him even with that 11m in cap space

Sad but a good point.

I think it's a risk I take.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

A gm in the cap era gave up equivalent value greater than 4 1st round picks for a player on the equivalent contract of ~13x4

A gm in the cap era gave up equivalent value of 3 first picks + for a rental carrying an equivalent cap hit of 12m

A gm in the cap era tried to give up 4 1st round picks for a *winger* with only one season better than a top 6 forward on the equivalent contract of 11.6 x 7

A gm in the cap era gave up a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd for a *winger* with zero 30 goal or 50 point seasons, on the equivalent contract of 7 x 5

A gm in the cap era gave up 2 1sts and a 2nd for a *winger* with no 40 goal or 70 point seasons, on the equivalent contract of 7.75 x 5

A GM in the cap era tried to give up a 1st and a 2nd for a C coming off a 55 point season (only time over 30) on the equivalent contract of 6.3 x 2. Said player would have been lost to waivers.

There are examples where a team tries to squeeze a player and they sign an offer sheet in order to get their fair market value, such as with Aho.

And Weber... I mean, four first round picks is an easier pill to swallow when it's a FOURTEEN YEAR contract. Not 4 or 5 years.

What is not common is a massive overpayment as well as 4 first round picks as well as short term. It's the combo. 11.6x5 is already pretty outrageous before even considering four first round picks. Nobody would have offered noticeably more. It's a fairy tale.

How many teams were even able to achieve this? How many teams would have their 4 first round picks, 12 mil in cap space, as well as super rich owners who would front-load everything in signing bonuses, AND being willing to do it, AS WELL AS being a place that Matthews would like to move to. Are there literally any? Complete joke of a premise.

And let's also remember that, if Dubas was playing complete hardball and wouldn't budge off 10 or so, the "alleged" offersheet Matthews signs could be lower aav than what he ended up signing.

An absolute joke of a premise. These only get discussed when it's the leafs. Literally nobody was talking about massive 4 first round pick style offsheets for any other rfa's the past few years. Only leafs. It's a narrative made up here to defend our weakling gm who got flat out BULLIED in the negotiation room.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Shanahan talks Maple Leafs and hometown discounts

Lou's philosophy: "Logo on the front matters more than name on the back"

Dubas on the other hand: "Name on the back means more than logo in the front"

The plan was reasonable contracts for the RFAs and build a winning team.

The RFAs did the exact opposite on AAV and term.

I would have sat Nylander and traded or bridged Marner so fast his head would spin.

Dubas was a train wreck in negotiations.

Shanny should have bailed him out.

Bridge or trade.

 

[Dreakmur]

There are examples where a team tries to squeeze a player and they sign an offer sheet in order to get their fair market value, such as with Aho.

And Weber... I mean, four first round picks is an easier pill to swallow when it's a FOURTEEN YEAR contract. Not 4 or 5 years.

What is not common is a massive overpayment as well as 4 first round picks as well as short term. It's the combo. 11.6x5 is already pretty outrageous before even considering four first round picks. Nobody would have offered noticeably more. It's a fairy tale.

How many teams were even able to achieve this? How many teams would have their 4 first round picks, 12 mil in cap space, as well as super rich owners who would front-load everything in signing bonuses, AND being willing to do it, AS WELL AS being a place that Matthews would like to move to. Are there literally any? Complete joke of a premise.

And let's also remember that, if Dubas was playing complete hardball and wouldn't budge off 10 or so, the "alleged" offersheet Matthews signs could be lower aav than what he ended up signing.

An absolute joke of a premise. These only get discussed when it's the leafs. Literally nobody was talking about massive 4 first round pick style offsheets for any other rfa's the past few years. Only leafs. It's a narrative made up here to defend our weakling gm who got flat out BULLIED in the negotiation room.

Offer sheets have never been a serious threat.

 

[4thline]

There are examples where a team tries to squeeze a player and they sign an offer sheet in order to get their fair market value, such as with Aho.

And Weber... I mean, four first round picks is an easier pill to swallow when it's a FOURTEEN YEAR contract. Not 4 or 5 years.

What is not common is a massive overpayment as well as 4 first round picks as well as short term. It's the combo. 11.6x5 is already pretty outrageous before even considering four first round picks. Nobody would have offered noticeably more. It's a fairy tale.

How many teams were even able to achieve this? How many teams would have their 4 first round picks, 12 mil in cap space, as well as super rich owners who would front-load everything in signing bonuses, AND being willing to do it, AS WELL AS being a place that Matthews would like to move to. Are there literally any? Complete joke of a premise.

And let's also remember that, if Dubas was playing complete hardball and wouldn't budge off 10 or so, the "alleged" offersheet Matthews signs could be lower aav than what he ended up signing.

An absolute joke of a premise. These only get discussed when it's the leafs. Literally nobody was talking about massive 4 first round pick style offsheets for any other rfa's the past few years. Only leafs. It's a narrative made up here to defend our weakling gm who got flat out BULLIED in the negotiation room.

You didn't refute a single one of the myriad of examples that apparently shouldn't have happened in a million years.