Shanahan Post Season Presser

[BigGulpsEh]

Maybe you count me as a defender? I don't know. I'm disgusted and embarrassed and partially just disillusioned.

I personally think that Shanahan, Dubas, and Keefe mostly got it right. We had a great team. Our playoff failure was down to a few things.... mostly a lack of Matthews and Marner stepping up when we needed them most. One goal in game five or six, and we would have moved on. Marner in particular wasn't very good. That isn't on management... these are elite players, who excel on a regular basis... but just not in the playoffs. It's up to management to decide, if we need to make a change in players, or if hiring sports psychologists, to get them over the hump in the playoffs is the answer.

These players let everyone else, including management down.

We were such a small margin away from getting through... of course Tavares going down didn't help, but we were good enough to beat Montreal without him.. and should have.

Isn't it on mangement that they signed them to ridiculously lucrative contracts before they proved they could succeed and win anything?

managment owns this failure as well. They constructed this core and its been proven to be a failure so far

 

[francis246]

The f***ing irony of it all, is we're going to lose Hyman for nothing. which is absolutely catastrophic.

is it really though? do you want to pay hyman 5 or 6 million? Because I sure as hell don't

 

[Fogelhund]

Have you ever considered da fact that Matty and Mitch gave everything they had but flat out just don't have playoff skills to get it done irrespective of opponent????? You keep clinging onto hope they can UP their speed and power for playoff hockey .. when do you get to point where you realize they don't have those skills?????

Matthews played well... But, he shot at 2.9%. Hit the post at least 6 times, and I missed some of the games. He shot at 18% in the regular season. I tend to think he had some bad luck involved. Hyman wasn't very good offensively, and Marner wasn't... I think Matthews has playoff potential. He was physical and engaged. Matthews had 35 shots... normally, that equates to six goals. He created enough offense, but didn't execute/back luck.. call it what you want. Five more goals from Matthews, and we eliminate Montreal in 4-6 games easy.

Marner, I'm beginning to wonder if he just doesn't have it for the playoffs. I know you knew him, and have said good things about him... but 3 points, 5v5 in the last three playoffs. Invisible... I know he's a strong kid, works out hard, squats big weight for someone his size... but the playoffs he just wilts anyway. I hope he figures it out, but I'm also prepared to have him moved, to change the identity of the team, and free up some cap.

But, I'm just a punter fan, so what do I know?

 

[francis246]

Dubasites are a stubborn, resilient breed.

the funniest thing is I'm not a Dubas fan. I've been openly critical about him since his hiring. But this is def not on him and you don't just trade star players for the sake of trading them. If the right deal is there then take it. Otherwise moving them because of a game 7 loss is completely reactionary and dumb.

 

[All Mod Cons]

You’ve got to admire Boston even as rivals.
They don’t compromise, they keep identity and no one is bigger than the team.

Not Kessel,Thornton,Seguin,Hamilton, no one. Accountability.

I really thought Shanahan was going to create that type of identity. Blue collar with skill, hard work, etc.
Nope. Looking for compete, looking for killer instinct, looking for intensity.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that will never happen. Dubas seems to be some sort of Svengali. He has Leaf management (and quite a few posters here) under his spell. The fact of the matter is, any way you look at it, the team has regressed under his leadership. From not making the playoffs last year to losing to the 18th ranked team in the NHL this year, it boggles the mind that he hasn't been held accountable.

As an aside - Svengali with Martin Freeman in, in am excellent movie.

 

[Garthinater]

the funniest thing is I'm not a Dubas fan you jackass. I've been openly critical about him since his hiring. But this is def not on him and you don't just trade star players for the sake of trading them. If the right deal is there then take it. Otherwise moving them because of a game 7 loss is completely reactionary and dumb.

How many game 7's (and 5's) do we need to lose before you're willing trade part of the core?

What you are suggesting is insanity.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Matthews played well... But, he shot at 2.9%. Hit the post at least 6 times, and I missed some of the games. He shot at 18% in the regular season. I tend to think he had some bad luck involved. Hyman wasn't very good offensively, and Marner wasn't... I think Matthews has playoff potential. He was physical and engaged. Matthews had 35 shots... normally, that equates to six goals. He created enough offense, but didn't execute/back luck.. call it what you want. Five more goals from Matthews, and we eliminate Montreal in 4-6 games easy.

Marner, I'm beginning to wonder if he just doesn't have it for the playoffs. I know you knew him, and have said good things about him... but 3 points, 5v5 in the last three playoffs. Invisible... I know he's a strong kid, works out hard, squats big weight for someone his size... but the playoffs he just wilts anyway. I hope he figures it out, but I'm also prepared to have him moved, to change the identity of the team, and free up some cap.

But, I'm just a punter fan, so what do I know?

I agree about AM and am willing to give him a bit of a pass on this latest debacle. Everyone knows MM is looking to pass and has no shot so they focus on AM and don't give him any space. Not sure why that line wasn't broken up, and why MM was a staple on PP1 despite being terrible

 

[Fogelhund]

Isn't it on mangement that they signed them to ridiculously lucrative contracts before they proved they could succeed and win anything?

managment owns this failure as well. They constructed this core and its been proven to be a failure so far

No, the contracts are a red herring and completely irrelevant. Whether these players make $20 million, $11 million, $2 million doesn't matter...

They constructed a core that's good enough to win, and surrounded them with good pieces. Matthews and Marner let them down... Matthews might have been partially a luck thing, Marner plain just hasn't performed in the playoffs.

Their failures in the past, were more about not having the right pieces around them, D wasn't good enough, we all knew that... not enough grit, not enough veterens... all that was fixed... they were elite on their ELC, and got paid for it. Combined, they were overpaid by about $2 mil, which is hardly what prevents a team from succeeding, and is in now way a barrier for performance.

 

[All Mod Cons]

people see strong work ethic,, and a battler ...i see a guy who dumps the puck into the corner, than fights to get it back.
he is an opportunistic goal scorer, but, when he has the puck, he is useless. Matthews keeps moving to open shooting spots, and Hyman keeps reversing and trying to get to the net on his own.
I think Hyman's issue is he's been reading all the how great he is stuff and has started to believe it.
Hyman is a 3rd line talent, and will be easily replaced, but, people will lament him when he's gone, even though we may be better off without him (if he's slotted on the opt line ever again)

Have you ever watched a playoff game?

 

[pspot]

they made a crucial mistake signing Tavares. not sure they'll be able to recover from that but essentially pot commited now for next 4 years

 

[francis246]

Basically Dubas has done just about everything aside from touching the "core". Procrastination will not get this team anywhere.

I don't think you understand the pressure that comes with moving one of these 4. You guys all say make a move, but the moment Dubas does or if we get a new GM (whoever it is) and that trade goes sideways this fan base will lose their shit. You can't win being the GM of the Maple Leafs. Everyone is saying move Marner for example, what if that deal is for futures, but it's the best deal available? How will everyone feel. This board would collapse instantly and be calling for Dubas to get fired.

 

[Fogelhund]

They acknowledge the problem, it's a process, now fix it.

Shanahan: 'There's a killer instinct that is missing that we need to address'


Shanahan: 'There's a killer instinct that is missing that we need to address'

 

[GoonieFace]

People are acting like we lost to an actual playoff caliber team. They blew a 3-1 series lead against an average team at best. It’s truly pathetic, and anyone that is making excuses has drank far too much kool-aid

 

[ShaneFalco]

You’ve got to admire Boston even as rivals.
They don’t compromise, they keep identity and no one is bigger than the team.

Not Kessel,Thornton,Seguin,Hamilton, no one. Accountability.

I really thought Shanahan was going to create that type of identity. Blue collar with skill, hard work, etc.
Nope. Looking for compete, looking for killer instinct, looking for intensity.

As did I. Losing is apparently acceptable because they're good players
Good players with no killer instinct
Good players who perform well during the regular season
Good players who take up half the cap
But let's keep trying to bring in cheap guys to add what's missing from the core

 

[francis246]

How many game 7's (and 5's) do we need to lose before you're willing trade part of the core?

What you are suggesting is insanity.

what you are suggesting is pure bullshit. Because like I mentioned in this last post, I've been a leafs fan my entire life. We are so reactionary in nature. We are calling for a big 4 guy to be traded today and when the deal is made we will cry that we didn't get enough and management f***ed up. That's what we do, the grass isn't always greener, you may think that moving one of the big four is the right move but it can also be the biggest mistake in Franchise history.

If a GOOD deal is there you make it. If not stay the course.

 

[RoadWarrior]

No, the contracts are a red herring and completely irrelevant. Whether these players make $20 million, $11 million, $2 million doesn't matter...

They constructed a core that's good enough to win, and surrounded them with good pieces. Matthews and Marner let them down... Matthews might have been partially a luck thing, Marner plain just hasn't performed in the playoffs.

Their failures in the past, were more about not having the right pieces around them, D wasn't good enough, we all knew that... not enough grit, not enough veterens... all that was fixed... they were elite on their ELC, and got paid for it. Combined, they were overpaid by about $2 mil, which is hardly what prevents a team from succeeding, and is in now way a barrier for performance.

Marner was overpaid by at least $2.5M. Matthews by about $1M. But it's not just the "overpayments" on salaries. It's also a question of team character and whether spending a collective $23M on these players is good value for the money. In the playoffs it certainly hasn't.

 

[ToneDog]

They acknowledge the problem, it's a process, now fix it.

Shanahan: 'There's a killer instinct that is missing that we need to address'


Shanahan: 'There's a killer instinct that is missing that we need to address'

Wonder what the excuse will be next year and what they are saying beihnd closed doors. Guess we have to wait to see how the off season plays out to really find out.

 

[ToneDog]

@Throw More Waffles

Marner @ 10.893 > Rantanen @ 9.5 LOL

 

[BigGulpsEh]

No, the contracts are a red herring and completely irrelevant. Whether these players make $20 million, $11 million, $2 million doesn't matter...

They constructed a core that's good enough to win, and surrounded them with good pieces. Matthews and Marner let them down... Matthews might have been partially a luck thing, Marner plain just hasn't performed in the playoffs.

Their failures in the past, were more about not having the right pieces around them, D wasn't good enough, we all knew that... not enough grit, not enough veterens... all that was fixed... they were elite on their ELC, and got paid for it. Combined, they were overpaid by about $2 mil, which is hardly what prevents a team from succeeding, and is in now way a barrier for performance.

Good job management for building a spineless team with 5 straight 1st rd exits.

Keep up the good work!!

 

[mydnyte]

Now turn off your Xbox and look around the league. What works?

Who else is successful paying $11M to a player whose their #2 centre?

Who is the highest paid 2nd centre of teams who’ve actually won?

How many Hab forwards made positive impact in the series vs how many Leafs?

Why do you think they’re able to see impact from 7-8 fwds while the Leafs can point to 3-4 that were good for them?

do you think you are talking to a child... I'm likely one of the oldest people on this board, heck I've been on this board longer than some have been alive.

salary is irrelevant

Teams that win and teams that learn from their mistakes and teams that want it more, put in more effort (outworking your opponent), and have the talent for that effort to be viable.

We do not have that yet, and the flat cap has made that more difficult, and no GM anyplace knew that was coming, and none could plan for that.

22 Teams had under $1 million in cap space this past year, and most of them dont have the talent we do, and are still in cap hell but dont have the players with the potential we do, so, we are at a huge advantage in that regard, but, he signed ours at the worst possible time (just before covid), so, it looks worse.

These players need to grow up, man up, and back it up... easier said than done, but, its up to them to do it.

 

[RoadWarrior]

I don't think you understand the pressure that comes with moving one of these 4. You guys all say make a move, but the moment Dubas does or if we get a new GM (whoever it is) and that trade goes sideways this fan base will lose their shit. You can't win being the GM of the Maple Leafs. Everyone is saying move Marner for example, what if that deal is for futures, but it's the best deal available? How will everyone feel. This board would collapse instantly and be calling for Dubas to get fired.

These guys are getting paid to make tough decisions. It's become obvious to everyone except the leafs management that moving core pieces is going to be necessary to win in the playoffs.

So you move Marner for futures. Great. Now you have $10M in cap space plus a boatload of draft picks to re-stock the cupboard. You spend some of the $10M on a Seth Jones and re-signing Rielly.

 

[sparxx87]

do you think you are talking to a child... I'm likely one of the oldest people on this board, heck I've been on this board longer than some have been alive.

salary is irrelevant

Teams that win and teams that learn from their mistakes and teams that want it more, put in more effort (outworking your opponent), and have the talent for that effort to be viable.

We do not have that yet, and the flat cap has made that more difficult, and no GM anyplace knew that was coming, and none could plan for that.

22 Teams had under $1 million in cap space this past year, and most of them dont have the talent we do, and are still in cap hell but dont have the players with the potential we do, so, we are at a huge advantage in that regard, but, he signed ours at the worst possible time (just before covid), so, it looks worse.

These players need to grow up, man up, and back it up... easier said than done, but, its up to them to do it.

Salary is absolutely relevant in a cap world.

It’s all about getting the best value for every dollar and I don’t think you could even argue paying Tavares as a top 5 player to be your #2 centre is even close to a good use of funds.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I don't think you understand the pressure that comes with moving one of these 4. You guys all say make a move, but the moment Dubas does or if we get a new GM (whoever it is) and that trade goes sideways this fan base will lose their shit. You can't win being the GM of the Maple Leafs. Everyone is saying move Marner for example, what if that deal is for futures, but it's the best deal available? How will everyone feel. This board would collapse instantly and be calling for Dubas to get fired.

That's right you CAN'T WIN ever as a Leaf GM .. it is inherently a terrible position to have in a CAP world .. what is more likely to happen, unless Larry changes things up, is team does not make playoffs next year and then a major financial free falls occurs with team

 

[pspot]

These guys are getting paid to make tough decisions. It's become obvious to everyone except the leafs management that moving core pieces is going to be necessary to win in the playoffs.

So you move Marner for futures. Great. Now you have $10M in cap space plus a boatload of draft picks to re-stock the cupboard. You spend some of the $10M on a Seth Jones and re-signing Rielly.

I'd move Nylander, Reilly, and Dermott
You build around Matthews and Marner
Bring in more Hyman type guys , shot blockers, forecheckers

 

[Fogelhund]

Marner was overpaid by at least $2.5M. Matthews by about $1M. But it's not just the "overpayments" on salaries. It's also a question of team character and whether spending a collective $23M on these players is good value for the money. In the playoffs it certainly hasn't.

Every advanced model on salaries, disagreed with you. But, who cares... salary isn't why we lost, but you've already ignored that.