Shanahan Post Season Presser

[myleafs]

I'm sorry, but, when you have the chance to sign a top 10 C in the league, you do it every time, and figure out the rest later.
The Tavares signing was great, and he doesnt get hurt, Montreal is at home, and you are likely singing his praises right now, as after the stick change, his game returned to the elite level it had been before.

I don't remember Tavares being hurt last year. The problem is that the excuses just get old after a while. Every year its something. Do I think the leafs play better with Tavares and a healthy foligno Hyman? yep for sure but thats not what happened. Bad luck happens but when bad luck is the excuse 3yrs in a row then you gotta wonder. It can't always be yea but if this happened or that didnt happen then we would have won.

 

[killer1980]

Speak for yourself People have not been happy with the core for a couple years now no I was singing his praises it’s time you and the rest of them stop drinking the Kool-Aid how much longer are you going to allow the team to be destroyed plus by not changing anything except the fringe players that’s a slap in the face to your fans What is the definition of stupid trying the same thing over and over repetitively And coming out with the same result No changes in the core they put the S in stupid

Ron White said it best. He was probably talking about the Leaf management team.

 

[francis246]

When did I say they're lucky? They do a better job drafting than just about every other team consistently, they're flat out better than we are in that department.

I can give you whatever amount of cap space you think our core is overpaid by, you're not going to get a Kucherov Point or Vasi with that money unless you draft them. Panarin is the closest thing in the cap era and he was golfing through the first round.

Also not to mention that Point took a bridge deal, where our guys said they would not take a bridge or management refused to take a bridge because we probably would have ended up paying more in a bridge situation especially for marner based on his point production. In the end Tampa will end up paying Point more than Marner once his bridge is done.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

agreed, it hasn't been done. But in FAIRNESS to them. They made that move based on very legitimate projections that the cap would have grown exponentially by now. So the four players would technically not have been worth 40% of the cap. Had they known that Covid would cause a flat cap two years later, I doubt they make the JT signing. It is not something they could have predicted, but as you've stated, it's not a problem they are left to deal with and have to address potentially.

2 more years of flat CAP and Matty has 1 year left before he leaves .. see ya .. only option left now, unless they want to waste another year, is to trade Mitch and get a tender and a D .. to me I would so a deal with Columbus for Jones, Korpisalo and their 1st rounder 2022 .. then turn around and trade Rielly for Ottawa's 2022 1st rounder, Formenton and Paul .. we free up like 5M in CAP and have a much better playoff type team .. sign Coleman and Goodrow with extra CAP and use Freddy $$ to resign Zach

Hyman JT Willy
Formenton Matty UFA signing 5M
Coleman Paul Goodrow
Mik Kerfoot Spezz

Muzzy Brodie
Sandin Jones
Hutton Bogo
Lily

Korpisalo
Soup

Dermy gone to seattle

Team has a chance to make playoff noise .. find another Josh Anderson type UFA to play with Matty in UFA (Foligno is done with back) .. must be speedy too like Formenton with size .. no more small guys .. no more guys who can't keep up .. everyone pays da piper

 

[Trapper]

You stated there was no way to get a better asset in a Marner trade......I provided two players that would be better assets that may be available. I have no idea if those deals are actually possible, but conceptually you don't have to lose a potential Marner trade.

We already know what Matthews/Nylander can do. Somebody we acquire will be given the opportunity (a Palmeiri type, Forsberg type) to fit in and contribute with JT.

Then maybe you can afford a 3C upgrade and balance the D with a Jones. Muzzin gets hurt you still have an anchor with Brodie/Jones in each pairing. Balance.

 

[francis246]

You stated there was no way to get a better asset in a Marner trade......I provided two players that would be better assets that may be available. I have no idea if those deals are actually possible, but conceptually you don't have to lose a potential Marner trade.

No I said you wouldn't get BETTER players. At least quote me properly. Neither of those players are better players than Marner in my opinion.

Would they provide something different to the team and maybe improve us quite possibly. Jones, brings defense and possibly a lower cap hit. Eichel is a great scorer and something we need.

However, If I'm management I'm not even touching the Eichel trade given his injury and inability to lead in Buffalo. Marner also out produces him in regular season so not even worth it to make that move. Just puts you back to where you started.


Jones is something I hope they consider but I'm not making that move without an extension in place and even then CBJ would have to add to jones.

 

[myleafs]

I don't think you understand the pressure that comes with moving one of these 4. You guys all say make a move, but the moment Dubas does or if we get a new GM (whoever it is) and that trade goes sideways this fan base will lose their shit. You can't win being the GM of the Maple Leafs. Everyone is saying move Marner for example, what if that deal is for futures, but it's the best deal available? How will everyone feel. This board would collapse instantly and be calling for Dubas to get fired.

If you cant stand the heat as they say. Bruins have had no problem getting rid of star players Seguin Thornton, prime lucic when they see something they dont like and it hasnt hurt them one bit. Sakic had his 4 core and got rid of two of them he felt were not going to help them and they seem like they are doing ok. The caps traded stars when they realized it wasnt going to work.

 

[socko]

If we trade Marner, a 90 point forward, for Jones, a 45 point defenseman, there better be something else substantial coming back along with Jones.

 

[francis246]

2 more years of flat CAP and Matty has 1 year left before he leaves .. see ya .. only option left now, unless they want to waste another year, is to trade Mitch and get a tender and a D .. to me I would so a deal with Columbus for Jones, Korpisalo and their 1st rounder 2022 .. then turn around and trade Rielly for Ottawa's 2022 1st rounder, Formenton and Paul .. we free up like 5M in CAP and have a much better playoff type team .. sign Coleman and Goodrow with extra CAP and use Freddy $$ to resign Zach

Hyman JT Willy
Formenton Matty UFA signing 5M
Coleman Paul Goodrow
Mik Kerfoot Spezz

Muzzy Brodie
Sandin Jones
Hutton Bogo
Lily

Korpisalo
Soup

Dermy gone to seattle

Team has a chance to make playoff noise .. find another Josh Anderson type UFA to play with Matty in UFA (Foligno is done with back) .. must be speedy too like Formenton with size .. no more small guys .. no more guys who can't keep up .. everyone pays da piper

That line up doesn't really inspire me as a cup contending team. But playing armchair gm is always fun. I agree with many of your points though. Except I don't see matthews leaving and I wouldn't bring back Hyman. Blake Coleman if we can find a way to bring him I would. I'd rather him than Hyman.

 

[myleafs]

you're acting like signing Seth Jones is a guarantee. It's not, you are gambling. The Raptors made that gamble with Giannis and missed horribly. Now they are tasked with not having a team that was nearly as good as it was 2 years ago. I'd hate to see the leafs make that same mistake. You focus on the here and now. That is why I don't believe any management team would make a drastic move like what many people are suggesting. I think they will explore options to move one of the guys if there is a 2-1 deal that makes sense or they can drop some cap without drastically losing what Marner/Nylander/Tavares brings then they will make that move.

If it means winning a championship, Ill take that.

 

[francis246]

If you cant stand the heat as they say. Bruins have had no problem getting rid of star players Seguin Thornton, prime lucic when they see something they dont like and it hasnt hurt them one bit. Sakic had his 4 core and got rid of two of them he felt were not going to help them and they seem like they are doing ok. The caps traded stars when they realized it wasnt going to work.

Already debunked before, the caps didn't trade anyone from their immediate core. They let Semin and Mike Green walk to UFA. They had Kuznetsov, Carlson and Orlov ready to step in.

Boston also drafted really well and had PEOPLE READY TO STEP IN so they could AFFORD to make those moves. Same thing with the Capitals theory I debunked earlier. It's easy to move on from players when you have guys who can step in and provide what the player you want to move does or better.

Seguin was an easy move for Boston, they had Pastrnak who they believed in. Thornton was easy to move, they had Savard and Kessel ready to step in. It softens the blow if you flub the trade if you decide to move on. Who does Toronto have that's going to hopefully going to be of the same Calibre of Marner should they decide to move on. Robertson maybe?

 

[Gary Nylund]

However, If I'm management I'm not even touching the Eichel trade given his injury and inability to lead in Buffalo. Marner also out produces him in regular season so not even worth it to make that move. Just puts you back to where you started.

Jones is something I hope they consider but I'm not making that move without an extension in place and even then CBJ would have to add to jones.

A couple of things:

1)
I've heard people say stuff about Eichel's attitude and whatever, not sure there's anything to worry about there or not or if he's just pissed because he wants to win. I think maybe that is it and if so, I'd trade Marner for him in an instant because I have the feeling that there are a lot of players who want to win more than Marner does and that desire is what this team seems to be missing. A player that's tired of losing and isn't afraid to say so, yes please come play for us!

2)
Eichel's inability to lead - I'm skeptical of this being an issue and even if it is, we don't need him to lead so who cares?

3)
Marner out produces him in the regular season - who cares? I'd be thrilled to replace him with someone willing to take a hit in order to make a play in the playoffs. If you want to win you need to pay the price and I just don't know about Marner in that regard.

 

[francis246]

If it means winning a championship, Ill take that.

I'm not talking about the Leonard move, I'm talking about them letting Ibaka and Gasol go in order to have a chance at Giannis who ended up staying in Milwaukee.

 

[myleafs]

i’ll say this about Keefe.
There was a lot of talk about Nick Nurse and how the Leafs now got their Nick Nurse and he’s a coach that doesnt wait andwill make smart adjustments on the fly.
Heres why Keefe aint no Nick nurse

1) nick nurse is super intelligent but highly demanding and doesnt put up with bad play. He will push guys and bench them if they dont play up to standards.
2) keefe played Thornton all throughout this series knowing he was a liability out there. Nurse would have adjusted and gave his minutes to someone else. Also, since Marner wasnt going well - keefe shoulda put Nylander with matthews. We never saw it.

leafs are in trouble if they think Keefe will lead them. He is too inexperienced and doesnt have the right demeanour so far in two seasons.

So weird...babs didnt play them enough and Keefe overplayed them by a lot. Marner is not ready for primetime Im the man in all situations ice time yet and may never be. He looked like a boy against men and keefe misread or just didnt want to see that he isnt ready for that sort of responsibility.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

That line up doesn't really inspire me as a cup contending team. But playing armchair gm is always fun. I agree with many of your points though. Except I don't see matthews leaving and I wouldn't bring back Hyman. Blake Coleman if we can find a way to bring him I would. I'd rather him than Hyman.

It would beat team we got now 4-0 pretty easy in a series .. we need more forwards with size and speed (pure speed not dipsy doodle edges) but guys who can grind out a game 2-1 in playoffs .. we need a rocket bomb shooter from point on PP and a guy who we can put out on ice to stop other teams from scoring on us late .. Dubie would never do this type of thing but our roster needs to get bigger, faster and tougher .. you don't need more than 3 guys with skill - JT, Matty and Willy

 

[francis246]

A couple of things:

1)
I've heard people say stuff about Eichel's attitude and whatever, not sure there's anything to worry about there or not or if he's just pissed because he wants to win. I think maybe that is it and if so, I'd trade Marner for him in an instant because I have the feeling that there are a lot of players who want to win more than Marner does and that desire is what this team seems to be missing. A player that's tired of losing and isn't afraid to say so, yes please come play for us!

2)
Eichel's inability to lead - I'm skeptical of this being an issue and even if it is, we don't need him to lead so who cares?

3)
Marner out produces him in the regular season - who cares? I'd be thrilled to replace him with someone willing to take a hit in order to make a play in the playoffs. If you want to win you need to pay the price and I just don't know about Marner in that regard.

fair points to 1 and 2. But we have not seen Eichel in the playoffs, so you don't know if he's going to be any better. That's a huge gamble.

 

[mydnyte]

That is exactly the whole cap consumption argument about how to spend your Cap wisely.

Vic Hedman a Norris trophy Dman in 8 games has 0-10-10 points for $7,875,000 AAV... Leaf fans have argued that if Nylander were a Norris level Dman using the same Cap the Leafs would be better.

Mitch Marner needed to get paid as one of the highest paid in the NHL at $10.9 AAV produced 7-0-4-4 points while Kucherov at $9.5 mil has 8 games 3-9-12 points.

or better still to demonstrate your deepest team point;

Brayden Point a player often compared to Marner took a 3 year bridge deal at $6,750,000 AAV and has produced 8 games 5-2-7 points but the TB Cap savings ($4.2 mil) saved on Marner's $10.9 mil has allowed TB to afford to pay Alex Killorn his $4.45 mil AAV and produce 8 games 5-4-9 points. So Point 5-2-7 points + Killorn @ 5-4-9 points = 10 goals 6 assists 16 points compared to Mitch at 0-4-4 points for the same cap hit..

So when a player like Stamkos 8 games 3-6-9 points for $8.5 and Leafs have 2 X Centres making $11 mil or more each and Matthews $ 11.64 AAV produces 1 goal 4 assists and 5 points . So Stamkos is not offsetting Nylander, he as actually outscoring our best player and doing it for $3.14 mil less and that cap space being used on another F or D player.

So its fairly easy to point to Leafs 4 X F using 1/2 Cap and then comparing it to the defending Cup champs TB and their top 4 production this year and expose Leafs overspending on far less production and its hurting team depth as a result.

I already posted earlier how irrelevant the salaries signed before Marner/Matthews is, because, Market value in 2016 is not the same as 2018/2019 etc
when you compare %cap hit in the year the deals they were signed, they are near identical, but, because they signed before, they look much better, and now with a flat cap, anyone who signs long term is insane. the first player to sign post 'flat cap' will still suffer because 90% of the teams are already at the cap... it's going to take a few years before salaries inflate again to pre-covid $$
The leafs suffered the most because they signed expensive longer deals, and the players that signed the shorter term deals expecting a windfall on the next contract are going to get screwed over, because of the flat cap.

Point that you used for example, needs a new contract after next season, TB only has Palat coming off the books to bring his salary up to the 9-11 mil he may be looking for, and then there is no $$ the next year for Sergachev and Cernak ...best case scenario, they only lose Cernak, but how good will McDonagh be in 2 years with 3 more years at 6.75 to go still $$ that would be better spent on Serg.
They have 20 mil on middle/bottom 6ers Gourde/Johnson/Cirelli/Killorn ...they tried to unload Johnson unsuccessfully once already, that is poorly spent $$ too

the main issue is our players didnt produce when it counted the most, and they need to produce, or they need to be eliminated.

 

[egd27]

You stated there was no way to get a better asset in a Marner trade......I provided two players that would be better assets that may be available. I have no idea if those deals are actually possible, but conceptually you don't have to lose a potential Marner trade.

No I said you wouldn't get BETTER players. At least quote me properly. Neither of those players are better players than Marner in my opinion.

Is that what you said, I thought you said asset? Oh wait a minute.......

No I'm not switching, I'm stating a fact a Marner trade means we are definitely giving up the better asset and even acknowledged that your statement was true as well.

That damn auto-correct.

 

[egd27]

If we trade Marner, a 90 point forward, for Jones, a 45 point defenseman, there better be something else substantial coming back along with Jones.

Would a couple of playoff round wins be considered substantial? Asking for a friend.

 

[francis246]

It would beat team we got now 4-0 pretty easy in a series .. we need more forwards with size and speed (pure speed not dipsy doodle edges) but guys who can grind out a game 2-1 in playoffs .. we need a rocket bomb shooter from point on PP and a guy who we can put out on ice to stop other teams from scoring on us late .. Dubie would never do this type of thing but our roster needs to get bigger, faster and tougher .. you don't need more than 3 guys with skill - JT, Matty and Willy

def, we should have been all over a josh andersen trade. That could have been a great move for us

 

[socko]

A couple of things:

1)
I've heard people say stuff about Eichel's attitude and whatever, not sure there's anything to worry about there or not or if he's just pissed because he wants to win. I think maybe that is it and if so, I'd trade Marner for him in an instant because I have the feeling that there are a lot of players who want to win more than Marner does and that desire is what this team seems to be missing. A player that's tired of losing and isn't afraid to say so, yes please come play for us!

2)
Eichel's inability to lead - I'm skeptical of this being an issue and even if it is, we don't need him to lead so who cares?

3)
Marner out produces him in the regular season - who cares? I'd be thrilled to replace him with someone willing to take a hit in order to make a play in the playoffs. If you want to win you need to pay the price and I just don't know about Marner in that regard.

Eichel has a NHL body and a NHL shot. This should be a no-brainer. And his scoring would most likely go up on the Leafs anyway by some amount, enough to cover the 10 points between them.

 

[killer1980]

What everyone is missing here is that Marner's father may not let Dubas trade him. He certainly seems to be controlling Dubas' strings.

 

[Legendary]

People used to talk about drinking the kool-aid during the Burke era, this is a new level of kool-aid drinking I didn’t even think was possible. Dubie and shanny fans will go down with this sinking ship just to prove their precious analytics are right.

 

[Gary Nylund]

fair points to 1 and 2. But we have not seen Eichel in the playoffs, so you don't know if he's going to be any better. That's a huge gamble.

That's true. But if losing makes him mad, that's a good sign. Haven't seen much of that from our guys and that's a bad sign. JMHO.

 

[IPS]

It would beat team we got now 4-0 pretty easy in a series .. we need more forwards with size and speed (pure speed not dipsy doodle edges) but guys who can grind out a game 2-1 in playoffs .. we need a rocket bomb shooter from point on PP and a guy who we can put out on ice to stop other teams from scoring on us late .. Dubie would never do this type of thing but our roster needs to get bigger, faster and tougher .. you don't need more than 3 guys with skill - JT, Matty and Willy

Agreed. And I don't know why people were going on about how Dubas "fixed the depth".

A couple of depth pieces did perform very well - namely Spezza. Kerfoot also punched well above his weight too this series which was great. But aside from them? Mikheyev, Thornton, Simmonds, Engvall - all invisible. You can't afford to have passengers in the playoffs, every single player on the team needs to make themselves useful in one way or another. Engvall and Mikheyev are great skaters who became complete powder puffs in the playoffs and Thornton and Simmonds just straight up couldn't keep up with the play and provided almost no grit whatsoever.