Shanahan Post Season Presser

[sparxx87]

LMAO stamkos has been on LTIR most of the last two years that's how and then having Kucherov on LTIR doesn't hurt either

That saved Tyler Johnson and another lesser piece. They still keep Stamkos and Kucherov who combined make like 4 million less than Tavares and Marner, and about 6-7 good forwards they afford with savings from players like Point and Hedman.

 

[francis246]

Oh, so you're switching from the Raptors' perspective to the Spurs' perspective because my example invalidated your first assertion about the Raps gambling? Well that's certainly convenient for your argument.

No I'm not switching, I'm stating a fact a Marner trade means we are definitely giving up the better asset and even acknowledged that your statement was true as well.

 

[francis246]

Speak for yourself People have not been happy with the core for a couple years now no I was singing his praises it’s time you and the rest of them stop drinking the Kool-Aid how much longer are you going to allow the team to be destroyed plus by not changing anything except the fringe players that’s a slap in the face to your fans What is the definition of stupid trying the same thing over and over repetitively And coming out with the same result No changes in the core they put the S in stupid

didn't know I mentioned anyone else. I am literally speaking for myself.

 

[socko]

Eichel is my first choice of the names thrown out there for Marner. I'd move Tavares to wing.

Matthews Nylander
Eichel Tavares

I acknowledge the risk with Eichel, and of course he would have to pass medical checks, but the payoff is worth the gamble.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

exactly, I don't give a shit about the money. It's not my money. You make it work now, Dubas overpaid them, I wish he hadn't but what's done is done. I understand their reasoning, the cap was supposed to go up, Covid screwed that. You can't predict that, but still they overpaid on i'd say Marner's deal. I really don't think Nylander is overpayed btw. It's really Marner that screwed us here and maybe signing Tavares. But how do you say no to signing a top 10 center in the league? That's a no brainer acquisition, if he wants to play here, he wants to play here.

No team has won with 4 forwards making half CAP .. it is really that simple .. playoffs are won with tending and defense .. Dubieanalytics are way way off folks

 

[francis246]

That saved Tyler Johnson and another lesser piece. They still keep Stamkos and Kucherov who combined make like 4 million less than Tavares and Marner, and about 6-7 good forwards they afford with savings from players like Point and Hedman.

For sure, they have managed to get buy in from their players and lock them up to reasonable deals. I don't know why we paid Marner and Matthews what we did. Dubas has to answer for that and at the time I was surprised it didn't cost him his job.

 

[egd27]

Yeah it's because they can pay Coleman 2 mil instead of Spezza at league min, not because they drafted Kucherov, Point, Palat, Gourde, Cirelli, etc with less draft capital than most contenders spend in a single deadline. Our contracts wouldn't be an issue if we were finding 40 goal Selke caliber #1Cs in the 3rd round.

Is that the 40 goal, Selke caliber #1C they signed for $6.75M the same year we signed a 20 goal winger for $11M.

I'm unclear how that furthers your argument?

 

[francis246]

No team has won with 4 forwards making half CAP .. it is really that simple .. playoffs are won with tending and defense .. Dubieanalytics are way way off folks

agreed, it hasn't been done. But in FAIRNESS to them. They made that move based on very legitimate projections that the cap would have grown exponentially by now. So the four players would technically not have been worth 40% of the cap. Had they known that Covid would cause a flat cap two years later, I doubt they make the JT signing. It is not something they could have predicted, but as you've stated, it's not a problem they are left to deal with and have to address potentially.

 

[sparxx87]

For sure, they have managed to get buy in from their players and lock them up to reasonable deals. I don't know why we paid Marner and Matthews what we did. Dubas has to answer for that and at the time I was surprised it didn't cost him his job.

I could live with Matthews falling between Eichel and McDavid around 11.5 on an 8 year term.

Marner should not be making more than Kucherov or Kane, never mind on anything less than max term.

No words to explain signing an $11M player to be your 2nd centre a year before these RFA negotiations.

 

[francis246]

Is that the 40 goal, Selke caliber #1C they signed for $6.75M the same year we signed a 20 goal winger for $11M.

I'm unclear how that furthers your argument?

again you can't compare a contract that was signed years ago based on a different cap to now. So I'm sure how that furthers your argument, you're comparing apples to oranges. It was completely different circumstances.

 

[francis246]

I could live with Matthews falling between Eichel and McDavid around 11.5 on an 8 year term.

Marner should not be making more than Kucherov or Kane, never mind on anything less than max term.

Agreed but I think Dubas wasn't prepared to trade him at that point. He was coming off a huge regular season. Probably would have been crucified if we traded him then. It's always easier to look back in retrospect and say yes we should have moved on from him when he held out.

 

[sparxx87]

Agreed but I think Dubas wasn't prepared to trade him at that point. He was coming off a huge regular season. Probably would have been crucified if we traded him then. It's always easier to look back in retrospect and say yes we should have moved on from him when he held out.

Maybe. I think there were many things Dubas wasn’t prepared for at that point.

I was literally in the trade section on this board and the main board trying to trade him immediately.

To me, Marner was never living up to that deal and the number being so high was always going to handicap the team.

 

[francis246]

Maybe.

I was literally in the trade section on this board and the main board trying to trade him immediately.

To me, Marner was never living up to that deal and the number being so high was always going to handicap the team.

lol, HF boards has no baring on real life transactions! So we can scream and holler all we want on here, at the end of the day it's up to management to make what they feel is the right decisions.

 

[egd27]

No I'm not switching, I'm stating a fact a Marner trade means we are definitely giving up the better asset and even acknowledged that your statement was true as well.

Eichel & Seth Jones are both better assets than Marner.
A combination of a talented winger, a solid defenseman and maybe even some cap could be a better asset package than Marner alone.

Lots of options that could be explored if you take the blinders off.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Is that the 40 goal, Selke caliber #1C they signed for $6.75M the same year we signed a 20 goal winger for $11M.

I'm unclear how that furthers your argument?

The 4.5 mil difference between them didn't buy them any players that move the needle in a big way, Coleman + Goodrow instead of Spezza/Brooks isn't the difference between a first round team and a championship team. There is no one you can spend 4.5 mil on in UFA this year that would change us from what we are now to a Tampa level team. Even if we had Marner at 7 mil, we wouldn't be a contender.

The extra money helps, but finding two future HHOF forwards in the 2nd and 3rd round (plus several strong middle-6 players and a Vezina goalie in the late 1st) on top of their 1st and 2nd overalls is why they are what they are. Hedman-Stamkos don't win you a cup on their own regardless of how good the middle 6ers you get in UFA are.

 

[sparxx87]

lol, HF boards has no baring on real life transactions! So we can scream and holler all we want on here, at the end of the day it's up to management to make what they feel is the right decisions.

For sure. I just meant in reference to “he would have been crucified for trading Marner” ... I think there was at least a few of us who didn’t want to lose Marner but knew that was too much money.

If he wouldn’t take 9M x 8 then they find the best hockey trade available.

 

[francis246]

Eichel & Seth Jones are both better assets than Marner.
A combination of a talented winger, a solid defenseman and maybe even some cap could be a better asset package than Marner alone.

Lots of options that could be explored if you take the blinders off.

You're assuming their both available in a trade for Marner and assuming our management has any interest in them. a Eichel for marner deal saves us no cap space (so doesn't that contradict everyone criticizing management for using up 40% of the cap space on 4 players?) Also the last time I've checked, Eichel hasn't won shit either and hasn't even made a playoff, so that's the guy you want to bring in to change things?

Jones could make sense, but I'm not sure he drastically makes you better. We are a good defensive team now. Our issue is not being able to score in the playoffs, so giving away one of our best offensive players despite his dryness in the playoffs for more defense seems really counteractive as well...

 

[Trapper]

Eichel is my first choice of the names thrown out there for Marner. I'd move Tavares to wing.

Matthews Nylander
Eichel Tavares

I acknowledge the risk with Eichel, and of course he would have to pass medical checks, but the payoff is worth the gamble.

Eichel just gives us more of the same problem. 3 forwards making 10 million.
Plus I’ve never seen Eichel in the playoffs and if he gets hurt, his long term health is an issue now, you’ve got nobody but a 700K to replace that.

I’d rather move Marner for a Jones/Werenski. Balance the forwards, balance the D.

 

[egd27]

again you can't compare a contract that was signed years ago based on a different cap to now. So I'm sure how that furthers your argument, you're comparing apples to oranges. It was completely different circumstances.

Point & Marner's current contracts both kicked in during 2019-20 season. It was, in fact, identical circumstances.

That's how it furthers my argument

 

[egd27]

The 4.5 mil difference between them didn't buy them any players that move the needle in a big way, Coleman + Goodrow instead of Spezza/Brooks isn't the difference between a first round team and a championship team. There is no one you can spend 4.5 mil on in UFA this year that would change us from what we are now to a Tampa level team. Even if we had Marner at 7 mil, we wouldn't be a contender.

The extra money helps, but finding two future HHOF forwards in the 2nd and 3rd round (plus several strong middle-6 players and a Vezina goalie in the late 1st) on top of their 1st and 2nd overalls is why they are what they are. Hedman-Stamkos don't win you a cup on their own regardless of how good the middle 6ers you get in UFA are.

Ok so you've tapped out on the contract negotiations argument and we've moved on to drafting?

Yes, TBL management has done a much better job of drafting, they're so lucky.

 

[socko]

Eichel just gives us more of the same problem. 3 forwards making 10 million.
Plus I’ve never seen Eichel in the playoffs and if he gets hurt, his long term health is an issue now, you’ve got nobody but a 700K to replace that.

I’d rather move Marner for a Jones/Werenski. Balance the forwards, balance the D.

But Jones is a guy who has hit 50 points once in his career. What we really need are difference makers in the playoffs. And while Eichel has not proven that, I feel he's just a higher level player than Jones.

 

[Mess]

Tampa has the deepest, and best blue line in the NHL, and the best goalie in the NHL. and still has tons of offense besides Stamkos.
...for them losing Stamkos is more like us losing Nylander, but not having the great defense, and the best goalie in the world as compensation.

That is exactly the whole cap consumption argument about how to spend your Cap wisely.

Vic Hedman a Norris trophy Dman in 8 games has 0-10-10 points for $7,875,000 AAV... Leaf fans have argued that if Nylander were a Norris level Dman using the same Cap the Leafs would be better.

Mitch Marner needed to get paid as one of the highest paid in the NHL at $10.9 AAV produced 7-0-4-4 points while Kucherov at $9.5 mil has 8 games 3-9-12 points.

or better still to demonstrate your deepest team point;

Brayden Point a player often compared to Marner took a 3 year bridge deal at $6,750,000 AAV and has produced 8 games 5-2-7 points but the TB Cap savings ($4.2 mil) saved on Marner's $10.9 mil has allowed TB to afford to pay Alex Killorn his $4.45 mil AAV and produce 8 games 5-4-9 points.

So Point 5-2-7 points + Killorn @ 5-4-9 points = 10 goals 6 assists 16 points compared to Mitch at 0-4-4 points for the same cap hit..

So when a player like Stamkos 8 games 3-6-9 points for $8.5 and Leafs have 2 X Centres making $11 mil or more each and Matthews $ 11.64 AAV produces 1 goal 4 assists and 5 points . Stamkos is not offsetting Nylander, he as actually outscoring our best player and doing it for $3.14 mil less and that cap space being used on another F or D player.

So its fairly easy to point to Leafs 4 X F using 1/2 Cap and then comparing it to the defending Cup champs TB and their top 4 production this year and expose Leafs overspending on far less production and its hurting team depth as a result.

 

[sparxx87]

Ok so you've tapped out on the contract negotiations argument and we've moved on to drafting?

Yes, TBL management has done a much better job of drafting, they're so lucky.

Patience, my friend. A few of these 5’8 170lb’ers drafted the last few years are going to come add that killer instinct they’re lacking.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Ok so you've tapped out on the contract negotiations argument and we've moved on to drafting?

Yes, TBL management has done a much better job of drafting, they're so lucky.

When did I say they're lucky? They do a better job drafting than just about every other team consistently, they're flat out better than we are in that department.

I can give you whatever amount of cap space you think our core is overpaid by, you're not going to get a Kucherov Point or Vasi with that money unless you draft them. Panarin is the closest thing in the cap era and he was golfing through the first round.

 

[egd27]

You're assuming their both available in a trade for Marner and assuming our management has any interest in them. a Eichel for marner deal saves us no cap space (so doesn't that contradict everyone criticizing management for using up 40% of the cap space on 4 players?) Also the last time I've checked, Eichel hasn't won shit either and hasn't even made a playoff, so that's the guy you want to bring in to change things?

Jones could make sense, but I'm not sure he drastically makes you better. We are a good defensive team now. Our issue is not being able to score in the playoffs, so giving away one of our best offensive players despite his dryness in the playoffs for more defense seems really counteractive as well...

You stated there was no way to get a better asset in a Marner trade......I provided two players that would be better assets that may be available. I have no idea if those deals are actually possible, but conceptually you don't have to lose a potential Marner trade.