Shanahan Post Season Presser

[francis246]

Washington's core at the beginning;
Ovi
Backstrom
Semin
Green

Their core when they won:
Ovy
Backstrom
Kuzy
Carlsson

The caps literally traded 2 of their core players before they won the cup. Following their model would actually require we trade 2 of our core.

... get your facts straight Mike Green left via Free Agency..

Alex Semin... left via free agency. The caps didn’t trade anyone out of their core.

They drafted well and had replacements ready so that they had the option to let those guys walk.

Kuznetsov and Marcus Johnsson were able to replAce Semin

Orlov and Carlsson were able to replace Mike Green

 

[swint]

no fill out the roster with players who can provide leadership but actually f***ing play. The Joe Thornton signing was so stupid. There were better players out there who signed a similar contract

As much as I love Wayne Simmonds and him being a black player and representing that for Toronto. We had Corey Perry sitting there who by reports wanted to be a Maple Leaf as well and he’s a much more effective player

This exactly. The answer isn’t trading Marner and signing guys who make $4m per to play on the 4th line. Good players are available every offseason for league minimum, but it’s up to our GM to find a good mix. Unfortunately, the Thornton and Simmonds experiments failed, but Corey Perry, Nate Thompson, and Trevor Lewis are all great options that were available for $700k (and are all players currently helping their teams win in the playoffs).

 

[Garthinater]

I’m in the exact same boat. I was livid with our star players after the game 7 loss, but I’ve calmed down and realized that if we’re going to win anything, these are going to be the guys to get it done.

I am, however, extremely disappointed in the fact that I was led to believe players like Simmonds, Thornton, and Foligno all have an “extra gear” in the playoffs. These guys, along with Engvall, Mikheyev, and Nash were dead weight, and the overall downfall of this team.

Did Marner and Matthews produce to the degree we expected them to? Hell no. But they hustled, generated offense, and were great defensively. Our 3rd and 4th lines were comprised of passengers once again, and you can’t win like that.

who exactly do you think they should trade? Is it worth not getting fair value for? No it’s not. You cannot trade one of the big four. You have to change the players around them. There are some good players available in UFA. Get the RIGHT GUYS AROUND THEM. Joe Thornton wasn’t it.

We have half the cap tied up in 4 forwards.

If we don't trade any of the core we will be stuck with passengers on the 3rd and4th line once again due to lack of money.

You cant win with this strategy. How many more times do we need to lose in the first round for you guys to wake up?

 

[swint]

See my latest post in this thread. You don’t need guys making millions in your bottom 6 to win. We just need to sign the right players with the money we have available.

 

[sparxx87]

no fill out the roster with players who can provide leadership but actually f***ing play. The Joe Thornton signing was so stupid. There were better players out there who signed a similar contract

As much as I love Wayne Simmonds and him being a black player and representing that for Toronto. We had Corey Perry sitting there who by reports wanted to be a Maple Leaf as well and he’s a much more effective player

Why not swap Thornton for Perry? A number of fans here wanted both. Thornton always seemed redundant with Spezza.

Simmonds was pretty good for them all year. Broken wrist threw him off but he looked great in the top 6 in the Hyman/3rd wheel forchecker/puck retriever role.

He isn’t going to produce offense with Kerfoot or Engvall as his centre.

 

[Garthinater]

... get your facts straight Mike Green left via Free Agency..

Alex Semin... left via free agency. The caps didn’t trade anyone out of their core.

They drafted well and had replacements ready so that they had the option to let those guys walk.

Kuznetsov and Marcus Johnsson were able to replAce Semin

Orlov and Carlsson were able to replace Mike Green

They still changed their core before they finally won. They didn't keep the same players and continue losing in the first round each and every year like you and a few other posters seem to want to do.

Do you know the definition of insanity?

 

[francis246]

We have half the cap tied up in 4 forwards.

If we don't trade any of the core we will be stuck with passengers on the 3rd and4th line once again due to lack of money.

You cant win with this strategy. How many more times do we need to lose in the first round for you guys to wake up?

As Shannan said, the flat cap royally f***ed them. Is it an excuse? Yes but it doesn’t make it less true. The cap was expected to go up over the next 5 years when those deals were made, include a projected cap raise for this season. You couldn’t have predicted Covid.

Tampa is in a similar predicament but because their guys are never healthy and they abuse LTIR and they’ve won their cup no one gives them flack. But Tampa made it work by filling out their bottom 6 with the right guys

 

[swint]

They still changed their core before they finally won. They didn't keep the same players and continue losing in the first round each and every year like you and a few other posters seem to want to do.

Do you know the definition of insanity?

We’ve made changes to our core as well. Remember when we signed Tavares? Remember when our 1G wasn’t good enough so we went out and found another one? A forced trade isn’t the answer here, man.

 

[francis246]

Why not swap Thornton for Perry? A number of fans here wanted both. Thornton always seemed redundant with Spezza.

Simmonds was pretty good for them all year. Broken wrist threw him off but he looked great in the top 6 in the Hyman/3rd wheel forchecker/puck retriever role.

He isn’t going to produce offense with Kerfoot or Engvall as his centre.

which ever combination it was, I agree with you. But the Thornton signing was brutal. Maybe we try and get Perry this off-season

 

[francis246]

They still changed their core before they finally won. They didn't keep the same players and continue losing in the first round each and every year like you and a few other posters seem to want to do.

Do you know the definition of insanity?

it took them at least 8 years before that change came. We are only 5 years in, Jesus. We are placing 16 years of unhappiness on these players which isn’t also fair to them. They weren’t here for a lot of that horrid past. So you have to give them time to build a legacy.

Tavares has been here for 3 years. Relax

 

[Stephen]

"I'll say this about our top four: I think any team would love to have any one of them," Shanahan said. "But we like them, we want them here. They're special players. They're all deeply, deeply committed here to win in Toronto."

How do you even say that without wanting to throw up? They show no desire to compete in the big games. The crumble and fold. No fight, no passion and this is now ok in Leaf land

I’m happy to hear they’re committed to winning in Toronto. I just want the organization reserve the right to change the recipe if this specific mix doesn’t work.

 

[ShaneFalco]

it took them at least 8 years before that change came. We are only 5 years in, Jesus. We are placing 16 years of unhappiness on these players which isn’t also fair to them. They weren’t here for a lot of that horrid past. So you have to give them time to build a legacy.

Tavares has been here for 3 years. Relax

People would give them more slack if they actually competed in big games. They don't or are unwilling to. It's ok lose in Toronto because hey, we've got great players. On paper

 

[Garthinater]

We’ve made changes to our core as well. Remember when we signed Tavares? Remember when our 1G wasn’t good enough so we went out and found another one? A forced trade isn’t the answer here, man.

Freddy was never part of the core.

And yes jt is part of the core but hes also part of the problem.

We have 50% of the cap tied up in 4 forwards! That leaves 50% for about 8 forwards and 6 D plus 2 goalies. You cant win with a cap distributed like that.

Its amazing you cant see this.

 

[Stephen]

which ever combination it was, I agree with you. But the Thornton signing was brutal. Maybe we try and get Perry this off-season

Perry looked pretty good in the playoff run vs Dallas but I wonder if they didn’t go for him because of his villainous personality - which was and is exactly what we need.

Even adding a prime Tom Wilson would be interesting. Can you imagine what kind of trouble he would generate?

 

[justashadowof]

It seems like his hands are tied or he doesn't get it. I'm going with the former because he knew exactly what was wrong in 2015. If there aren't major changes this summer, and the games remain these hollow events, I've got to believe that interest in this team is going to be shockingly low for a team that will qualify for the playoffs again.

 

[francis246]

People would give them more slack if they actually competed in big games. They don't or are unwilling to. It's ok lose in Toronto because hey, we've got great players. On paper

I didn’t say it’s okay. I said you have to be reasonable. With this core they f***ed up this series no doubt. But you don’t give up on a core after 5 years. And let’s be honest they have made strides. This is the first year they’ve shown growth in terms of their overall game.

did they not come to play in games 5,6,7 absolutely. But if you look at the overall picture of how much improvement they’ve made in terms of their game they have grown. The playoffs were tough to watch but you can’t make a reactionary move because of that

 

[Mess]

I hope no one expected Shanahan and Leafs management to admit they made mistakes, nor there plan failed.

This was almost a defiant press conference with the same old "We can and we will" mentality to prove everyone wrong, that you can win with this core and with 4 players/forwards taking up 1/2 your cap.

There are some NHL execs that believe success is not possible as was mentioned on TSN that's hockey yesterday, but the Shanaplan is still going full speed ahead.

If you take the 18 highest AAV in the NHL only Carey Price a goalie is still playing into the 2nd round. No very promising for a team that has 3 of the top 7 highest in Matthews, Tavares and Marner. (Browse - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps).

If there was any year to disprove this cap consumption theory it was this year because only 6 Canadian and 2 American teams was the most you had to face regular season and playoffs. However with Seattle joining there will be 31 other teams to play and compete against and a much tougher Div when Leafs return to the Atlantic and have TB and Boston and those fast charging Florida Panthers to deal with in addition to Montreal a team they just collapsed against, and the Metro Div from the East.

There is only so much you can do if you only have 1/2 a cap (~$40 mil) in a flat cap world to spend on minimum + 9 forwards + 7 Dmen + 2 Goalies or 18 players in addition to your core 4F. That's allows on average ~$2.2 mil per player.

 

[Garthinater]

As Shannan said, the flat cap royally f***ed them. Is it an excuse? Yes but it doesn’t make it less true. The cap was expected to go up over the next 5 years when those deals were made, include a projected cap raise for this season. You couldn’t have predicted Covid.

Tampa is in a similar predicament but because their guys are never healthy and they abuse LTIR and they’ve won their cup no one gives them flack. But Tampa made it work by filling out their bottom 6 with the right guys

Tampa
Stamkos 8.5 mil
Kuch 9.5
Hedman 7.9
Vasi 9.5
= 35.4 million for a #1 center, #1 winger, #1 D and #1 goalie

Leafs
Matthews 11.3
Marner 10.9
Tavares 11
Nylander 7
= 40.2 million for 2 #1 centers and 2 #1 wingers.

Not only are we paying more than Tampa, we also have all of it funneled to just 4 forwards!

Dubas should never have given out the contracts he did. No team has gone far in the playoffs with even 1 player making 10+ mil. We have 3.

Trying the same thing over and over but expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I didn’t say it’s okay. I said you have to be reasonable. With this core they f***ed up this series no doubt. But you don’t give up on a core after 5 years. And let’s be honest they have made strides. This is the first year they’ve shown growth in terms of their overall game.

did they not come to play in games 5,6,7 absolutely. But if you look at the overall picture of how much improvement they’ve made in terms of their game they have grown. The playoffs were tough to watch but you can’t make a reactionary move because of that

You stay the course with a core that shows zero compete in big games because they're improving? These guys are 24ish now making huge amounts of money and laying an egg, showing nothing in big games for years now, is still ok to some

 

[Brown Dog]

I am still in shock and mourning over how the series ended...

...but it bears remembering that we twice came back from multi-goal 3rd period deficits to come within one goal of ending the series with an OT winner in Games 5 or 6.

Just one goal in either of those games and the narrative is completely different. One goal. Yes, it didn't happen (again!!), so the gap between success and failure sure seems like a chasm right now, but it really is frustratingly razor thin.

 

[justashadowof]

There are some NHL execs that believe success is not possible as was mentioned on TSN that's hockey yesterday, but the Shanaplan is still going full speed ahead.

In a way, they've sort of proved it is possible to be successful with 1/2 the cap going to 4 players by winning a regular season division title. They may have also proven that those 4 players need to be playoff monsters to do anything past the regular season. As those 4 players go, so goes the entire team. In regular season, Matthews and Marner had monster seasons. In the playoffs, they didn't get the job done so it was another exit at the hands of mediocrity.

 

[Gary Nylund]

okay give me a scenario that makes sense? People here are saying trade the big four out of emotion. There is no trade that makes you better at this moment. Also Shanahan is right, you keep your best players. Prior to the playoffs everyone was raving about how much we love these guys. It’s all emotion right now.

I wouldn't generalize like that - I'm not saying trade out of emotion, I'm saying consider everything and don't rule out trading core pieces because you should never rule out anything.

You're again stating opinions as facts - you don't know what trades might be out there for consideration.

There are a number of scenarios for management to evaluate. One possibility is elite players who aren't happy where they are, we know of Jones and Eichel, perhaps there are others. The other end of the spectrum is to just trade say Marner for a boatload of picks and use the cap space to sign an elite player like Dougie Hamilton. Then there are all kinds of other possibilities and there might be several that make us a better tean.

If a player like Marner was made available, I can guarantee you that there would be a TON of interest, there would be many interesting offers to choose from and saying none of them would help us makes no sense whatsoever. And the same goes for Matthews to an even greater degree. When you're a killer team on paper yet you keep losing in the 1st round, doesn't it make sense to consider other options? Say we lose again in the 1st round next year to Boston, TB, Florida, WSH or whoever else, then what? Are you still gonna say can't trade core pieces? At that point Marner and Matthews will have less value as they're under contract for one year less. And if you don't change anything again and lose again, then their value goes down again and Matthews would basically be a rental player.

Every year you wait, your trading position gets worse. If you are going to stick with this core until the bitter end, you better be damn sure that it's the right thing to do. I don't see it myself and think it's time to consider all our options.

 

[MoreMogilny]

I get Shanahan defending the plan, but we are in a scary position right now.

The simple fact of the matter is that the Leafs’ hands are tied. If the plan is to continue playing with this core, then that means options for improving the team are so limited that it borders on impossible to make this team deeper and harder to play against.

How can you continue banking on players coming in on league minimum type of deals and contributing way beyond their paycheques?

We have also surrendered multiple first round picks which also puts the team in a position of not be able to bring in high level young talent to contribute on ELCs. Sure we have a few promising prospects but nothing that no other team can’t say the same about.

We are dangerously close to the need to make drastic changes to the core which goes against the whole plan in the first place.

This off-season might be our most critical and interesting one of the era.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I wouldn't generalize like that - I'm not saying trade out of emotion, I'm saying consider everything and don't rule out trading core pieces because you should never rule out anything.

You're again stating opinions as facts - you don't know what trades might be out there for consideration.

There are a number of scenarios for management to evaluate. One possibility is elite players who aren't happy where they are, we know of Jones and Eichel, perhaps there are others. The other end of the spectrum is to just trade say Marner for a boatload of picks and use the cap space to sign an elite player like Dougie Hamilton. Then there are all kinds of other possibilities and there might be several that make us a better tean.

If a player like Marner was made available, I can guarantee you that there would be a TON of interest, there would be many interesting offers to choose from and saying none of them would help us makes no sense whatsoever. And the same goes for Matthews to an even greater degree. When you're a killer team on paper yet you keep losing in the 1st round, doesn't it make sense to consider other options? Say we lose again in the 1st round next year to Boston, TB, Florida, WSH or whoever else, then what? Are you still gonna say can't trade core pieces? At that point Marner and Matthews will have less value as they're under contract for one year less. And if you don't change anything again and lose again, then their value goes down again and Matthews would basically be a rental player.

Every year you wait, your trading position gets worse. If you are going to stick with this core until the bitter end, you better be damn sure that it's the right thing to do. I don't see it myself and think it's time to consider all our options.

Marner's contract is a dream for a lot of owners

Great age, young so he's marketable, his cap hit is high but his salary after we pay his signing bonus is 6.2M and he was top 5 point producer in the league.

You can find 20 teams interested.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Any idea why such a potent regular season offence gets completely neutralized by mediocre teams like the CBJ and Montreal?

Lack of h-e-a-r-t.