Post-Game Talk: Sens 1 and 2

[sepster]

Because we all know that the one thing the NHL gets right in the playoffs is their officiating.

 

[jaster]

And those are professional hockey refs. Hard to beat two uniforms at once. There is plenty of scenarios where coasting is plenty fine. When the game is lost. Just keep the clock rolling. There is another game coming.

Nope. That's how you remain a loser. You may think that as a fan, but that's poison if you're a player.

The game wasn't lost 47 seconds into the 3rd anyway. If they thought it was, they're bigger losers than I thought.

Well, they lost. So that's correct.

Aaaaaaand that's what I'd like to see them stop doing as frequently, eventually. Part of what has to happen to become less of a loser like that is to have a higher compete level.

 

[raymond23]

Bummer. Good opportunity to respond tomorrow with a better effort. Just keep working boys, one day at a time

 

[cvaicunas]

My biggest criticism of Lalonde, maybe my only criticism that I'm really feeling, is that Chiarot is still with Hronek. It's borderline inexcusable after what we've seen work and not work through 60ish games.

I mentioned this in another thread, curious as to your thoughts. I have wondered if Maata has been kept down on the third pair to stabilize the rotating corpses of Haag and Lindstrom (Osterele I'll leave alone here.) With how unpredictable Chiarot's game is, do you think we would have a greater problem on the back end in that scenario

 

[jaster]

And competitiveness has nothing to do with the outcome of the game tonight. Maybe the ultimate final score, but not the overall outcome.

It had everything to do with it, because they're good enough to beat Ottawa. They gave up about the time it was 4-2 with 22 minutes left in the game. Unsat.

 

[norrisnick]

Nope. That's how you remain a loser. You may think that as a fan, but that's poison if you're a player.

The game wasn't lost 47 seconds into the 3rd anyway. If they thought it was, they're bigger losers than I thought.


Aaaaaaand that's what I'd like to see them stop doing as frequently, eventually. Part of what has to happen to become less of a loser like that is to have a higher compete level.

It's fine that it's poison. Time go get some robo-refs in here. Dealing with that bullshit is pretty f***ing poisonous.

Like what are you supposed to do if one team charges every other shift and your team is the one that ends up picking up a charging penalty? "Keep pluggin' away, sport!"? f*** that.

It had everything to do with it, because they're good enough to beat Ottawa. They gave up about the time it was 4-2 with 22 minutes left in the game. Unsat.

You mean right around the time Timmy spun himself into the ice for another PP against?

I mentioned this in another thread, curious as to your thoughts. I have wondered if Maata has been kept down on the third pair to stabilize the rotating corpses of Haag and Lindstrom (Osterele I'll leave alone here.) With how unpredictable Chiarot's game is, do you think we would have a greater problem on the back end in that scenario

I'd rather a problem on the 3rd pairing than the 2nd.

 

[jaster]

I mentioned this in another thread, curious as to your thoughts. I have wondered if Maata has been kept down on the third pair to stabilize the rotating corpses of Haag and Lindstrom (Osterele I'll leave alone here.)

I would bet that that is a factor, yeah. And, Maatta may not have his legs completely back after pneumonia. But as to your thought, I'd ask, at what point are you suffering more by doing that and having Chiarot as part of a trainwreck 2nd pair, ya know?

With how unpredictable Chiarot's game is, do you think we would have a greater problem on the back end in that scenario

I believe, if you have a problem child (for lack of a better description), you push him further down the lineup. If it's inevitable that the pair Chiarot is on is going to be bad, I'd personally rather that pair be the 3rd, getting fewer minutes. At least for now, while you're fighting for a playoff spot. If the games become less meaningful, sure go back to Chiarot in the top-4 so you don't minimize his potential trade value down the line I guess.

 

[RedHawkDown]

It's fine that it's poison. Time go get some robo-refs in here. Dealing with that bullshit is pretty f***ing poisonous.

Like what are you supposed to do if one team charges every other shift and your team is the one that ends up picking up a charging penalty? "Keep pluggin' away, sport!"? f*** that.


You mean right around the time Timmy spun himself into the ice for another PP against?


I'd rather a problem on the 3rd pairing than the 2nd.

Blaming the refs is a loser mentality. The refs aren’t paid by the Sens, a franchise that’s barely able to make ends meet. They suck for everyone. Get over it. It’s never the reason you lose a game, and especially not 6-2.

 

[cvaicunas]

Bert ended up on the score sheet but I didn't see him much after that. He's been awfully quiet since he came back from injury.

Two hand/wrist injuries... I mean that has to have an effect. He's noticeably not in sync. His stick used to be so productive in intercepting passes and causing havoc on the back check. That part of his game still has not shown up often, let alone the offensive touch.

I would bet that that is a factor, yeah. And, Maatta may not have his legs completely back after pneumonia. But as to your thought, I'd ask, at what point are you suffering more by doing that and having Chiarot as part of a trainwreck 2nd pair, ya know?


I believe, if you have a problem child (for lack of a better description), you push him further down the lineup. If it's inevitable that the pair Chiarot is on is going to be bad, I'd personally rather that pair be the 3rd, getting fewer minutes. At least for now, while you're fighting for a playoff spot. If the games become less meaningful, sure go back to Chiarot in the top-4 so you don't minimize his potential trade value down the line I guess.

Yea I don't think there is a great answer either way. Obviously not a situation anyone would hope to be in with a player just recently signed.

 

[Ezekial]

The officiating punked them, but that's no reason to give up like they did. Not a valid excuse. And by not sending a message, it betrays a feebleness that will make things harder tomorrow night. They're going into this next game with 0 momentum after doing their best origami impression that last 20 minutes. Complaining about the officiating, or being worried about contacting the league office, is something the coaches/front office may want to pursue, but it has no effect whatsoever on the players. That has to be out of their mind.

It's definitely not a valid excuse but it's what happened for sure - and they responded very poorly. I just hope they come in with a chip on their shoulder but more importantly I hope Husso continues his level of play.

I wanted to watch the postgame to see what they had to say about it, but I was too disgusted after the Stutzle goal and had to shut it off.

 

[cvaicunas]

Anyone else getting gutless vibes from this team? I know it was 25 years ago and the game has changed, but that 97 team had Shanahan, Lapointe, McCarty, Kocur, Maltby, Konstantinov, Rouse. I’d kill to have just two guys on this team that could play with some sandpaper and not be pylons out there.

I re watched some of those late 90s playoff games recently. I forgot how much of a pest Maltby was. He was consistently in middle of nearly every scrum while he was on the ice.

 

[jaster]

It's fine that it's poison. Time go get some robo-refs in here. Dealing with that bullshit is pretty f***ing poisonous.

Like what are you supposed to do if one team charges every other shift and your team is the one that ends up picking up a charging penalty? "Keep pluggin' away, sport!"? f*** that.

Um. Yes? Like, absolutely. Again, professional hockey players, at the highest level in the world? And you're ok with them giving up because the officiating is frustrating? I guess. I can't get there though. I don't believe a team that thinks like that can ever win. Adapt and overcome. Hockey is hard. Professional sports is hard. The cream is going to rise to the top and the margin for error is small. Sure, it doesn't matter as much when you're a fringe team like Detroit currently is, but if they get legit good, it's going to matter a whole lot more.

You mean right around the time Timmy spun himself into the ice for another PP against?

I get that you want to make this all about the officiating, but the officiating shouldn't matter when it comes to a team giving up or not giving up. If calls going against you in a critical game like that trigger you to throw your arms up and say you don't want to play anymore, what will be your team's mentality when the calls are going against you in game 7 of the Cup Final?

 

[MabusIncarnate]

Had to miss this one tonight, was this just a bad game overall or did Hellberg have a stinker?

Glad to see Bert and Perron both scored, both needed it.

 

[jaster]

It's definitely not a valid excuse but it's what happened for sure - and they responded very poorly. I just hope they come in with a chip on their shoulder but more importantly I hope Husso continues his level of play.

I wanted to watch the postgame to see what they had to say about it, but I was too disgusted after the Stutzle goal and had to shut it off.

Yep, and that's why I had a problem with it. Hopefully they manage to bounce back tomorrow, for sure.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

Had to miss this one tonight, was this just a bad game overall or did Hellberg have a stinker?

Glad to see Bert and Perron both scored, both needed it.

A little of both.

 

[jaster]

Also, not every single player gave up down the stretch. A few guys at least were still competing, without much help. At a minimum I'd hold the rest of the bunch to the standard of the few who played in the 3rd. That's not too much to ask.

 

[norrisnick]

Um. Yes? Like, absolutely. Again, professional hockey players, at the highest level in the world? And you're ok with them giving up because the officiating is frustrating? I guess. I can't get there though. I don't believe a team that thinks like that can ever win. Adapt and overcome. Hockey is hard. Professional sports is hard. The cream is going to rise to the top and the margin for error is small. Sure, it doesn't matter as much when you're a fringe team like Detroit currently is, but if they get legit good, it's going to matter a whole lot more.


I get that you want to make this all about the officiating, but the officiating shouldn't matter when it comes to a team giving up or not giving up. If calls going against you in a critical game like that trigger you to throw your arms up and say you don't want to play anymore, what will be your team's mentality when the calls are going against you in game 7 of the Cup Final?

If the calls keep going against you in game 7 of the Cup Final it really doesn't matter how much you "compete." The parity between teams is too tight to also be expected to overcome 3rd party bullshit.

 

[ricky0034]

complaining that the refs are against you every time you lose a game is like saying the lottery is rigged every time you don't win it

it just sounds silly, there's not like a leaguewide officiating conspiracy against the WIngs or whatever

 

[norrisnick]

Plug the rulebook into the AI and let the dozens of cameras call the game. Get a little drone to drop the puck.

complaining that the refs are against you every time you lose a game is like saying the lottery is rigged every time you don't win it

it just sounds silly

Point to every game, please. Hell, I'd settle for most. I can be found in all the post-games. Search away. 31 losses. Chop chop.

 

[StargateSG1]

If the calls keep going against you in game 7 of the Cup Final it really doesn't matter how much you "compete." The parity between teams is too tight to also be expected to overcome 3rd party bullshit.

None of it is "controversy" you believe it is.
These zebras get evaluated all the time and the worst offenders get removed.
Think Tim Peel and others.
In any case, it all "balances out" eventually.

complaining that the refs are against you every time you lose a game is like saying the lottery is rigged every time you don't win it

it just sounds silly, there's not like a leaguewide officiating conspiracy against the WIngs or whatever

Bingo!

 

[ricky0034]

Plug the rulebook into the AI and let the dozens of cameras call the game. Get a little drone to drop the puck.


Point to every game, please. Hell, I'd settle for most. I can be found in all the post-games. Search away. 31 losses. Chop chop.

I mean it's obviously hyperbole but this is far from the first time i've seen the refs being blamed for games that weren't even close this year

when you get outshot 2-1 and lose by 4 goals there's a whole lot of things more at fault than anything the refs may have done or not done

 

[norrisnick]

I mean it's obviously hyperbole but this is far from the first time i've seen the refs being blamed for games that weren't even close this year

when you get outshot 2-1 and lose by 4 goals there's a whole lot of things more at fault than anything the refs may have done or not done

So, from every game to at least more than one in the span of 5 minutes. Got it.

You don't think there were some factors leading to those kind of results? Cause and effect is a motherf***er.

 

[jaster]

If the calls keep going against you in game 7 of the Cup Final it really doesn't matter how much you "compete." The parity between teams is too tight to also be expected to overcome 3rd party bullshit.

Oof. C'mon, you know better than that. Good teams overcome bad officiating all the time, even against superior opposition. The odds are against you, yeah, but you're telling me teams in game 7 of the Cup Final that have calls going against them should just give up? You taking crazy pills?

You keep focusing on the officiating. The officiating doesn't matter when you're trying to construct a winning team. The players can't control the refs. They can't worry about them, and they can't be part of their calculus. They can only control their own performance, their own compete. As long as there is a chance, you compete, refs be damned.

Tonight's shitshow was an opportunity for an audition, for when it truly matters. And they bombed. They need a little Herb Brooks giving them suicides right now, reminding them of the logo on their chest, or whatever re-motivates them.

 

[norrisnick]

Oof. C'mon, you know better than that. Good teams overcome bad officiating all the time, even against superior opposition. The odds are against you, yeah, but you're telling me teams in game 7 of the Cup Final that have calls going against them should just give up? You taking crazy pills?

You keep focusing on the officiating. The officiating doesn't matter when you're trying to construct a winning team. The players can't control the refs. They can't worry about them, and they can't be part of their calculus. They can only control their own performance, their own compete. As long as there is a chance, you compete, refs be damned.

Tonight's shitshow was an opportunity for an audition, for when it truly matters. And they bombed. They need a little Herb Brooks giving them suicides right now, reminding them of the logo on their chest, or whatever re-motivates them.

We're not a good team.

There is only so much momentum robbing bullshit I'm willing to deal with. And very little of that if it's coming from the refs. They have one f***ing job. That's to consistently apply the rules. That's it.

Their job is not to make the home team happy.
Their job is not to balance out bad calls with more bad calls.
Their job is not to randomly call something a penalty now that wasn't a penalty 3 shifts ago.
Their job is not to have as close to even PPs for and against.
Their job is not to give the trailing team PPs on calls that aren't calls for the leading team.

Apply the rules evenly and at a consistent threshold. If humans can't or won't do that, scrap the humans.

You go out and go for a jog, and some dipshit keeps coming up behind you and tripping you or hipchecking you in a bush and you're not allowed to look at the guy let alone retaliate. You can go ahead and keep running. I'm gonna stop running. Frustration is a real thing. It's as poisonous as your lack of compete.

Rah rah bullshit is just that. Bullshit.

 

[norrisnick]

Side note (not really), are all the refs aware that intentionally knocking off a guy's helmet is a roughing penalty? Back to back games where a helmet was ripped off (during play) and not called. Just because a different penalty got called during the same play does not negate that one. In one situation the Wings were getting a PP on the play for a different infraction. In the other the Wings took a penalty and a different Wing got his lid ripped off. The unwillingness to call multiple infractions on one play is maddening.

Beating a dead horse, but shoddy reffing should be as unacceptable at this level as a shitty ice surface.