Player Discussion Sam "Dikembe" Montembeault

[RealityHurts]

Reality is going to hurt you after you come to grips that MSL and the players don't have bottom 5 finish on their minds.

Monty is not the sole reason why we won't get a top 5 spot. Come on man. That's like saying it didn't matter what Suzuki/Caufield with Danault and also with a strong top 4D in front of Price matters. It was all Price. Complete BS. This is a team game. It's not the NBA



I think MSL is the type to coach everyone and get them engaged but he also the type to reward good performances.

I'd steer clear of dumping on Allen but I'm sure Allen understands if Monty gets a few more starts in the next week or two.

I never implied they were aiming for a bottom 5 finish. That's hughes' job. Part of reaching that is trading monty

 

[Habs Halifax]

He did have hot streaks last year.

Sure, and I bet you said you didn't even watch the games cause they sucked too.

If you really paid attention, our team D sucked really bad last year and our goalies were exposed. Monty started off bad but battled really hard to improve. He did have very good games last year. There was a lot of bad and good with Monty last season.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I never implied they were aiming for a bottom 5 finish. That's hughes' job. Part of reaching that is trading monty

Hughes job is not to manage the players on the ice. That is MSL's job. Hughes will evaluate where we stand in Dec/Jan and go from there. If we fall a bit and struggle once the games get tighter (it always does)... Habs will likely rest vets with nagging injuries and play more youth which might help our draft spot.

We are not going to trade Monty cause we think we will get a better draft pick. Come on man. Tank fever appears to be a real thing I guess.

 

[RealityHurts]

You aren't following what I'm saying bro. It was never implied that he was managing players on the ice. His job is to have a good assessment of his team and link that with his vision. Following his vision, it should be known he needs to replenish talent for the sustained success he wants. Stop extrapolating

 

[JianYang]

Right now, Monty is on pace for about 28 starts this year.

Regardless of whether he's playing good or bad, he needs more starts.

I was thinking around 35 starts at the beginning of the year. Otherwise you're playing Allen too much.

 

[Habs Halifax]

You aren't following what I'm saying bro. It was never implied that he was managing players on the ice. His job is to have a good assessment of his team and link that with his vision. Following his vision, it should be known he needs to replenish talent for the sustained success he wants. Stop extrapolating

These are the two quotes you posted...

1) Yes, or waiver him for all I care. Losing a top 5 pick to keep montembeault is lacking vision

2) I never implied they were aiming for a bottom 5 finish. That's hughes' job. Part of reaching that is trading monty

 

[RealityHurts]

These are the two quotes you posted...

1) Yes, or waiver him for all I care. Losing a top 5 pick to keep montembeault is lacking vision

2) I never implied they were aiming for a bottom 5 finish. That's hughes' job. Part of reaching that is trading monty

Those are both indeed my posts iirc.

They're also very coherent with one another.

No one is saying MSL or the players of the team are aiming for a bottom 5 finish. That is the management's job.

The manager should have a vision as to what he wants to do with his team long term. In the present case, it's very clear a reset / rebuild is needed: we simply do not have the right pieces to contend in the long term. Now that this is out of the way, the best way to do so is to acquire great talents at the draft in modern day NHL and eventually complement that with free agents if need be. With where the team is right now in the manager's planning, the Habs should normally try for a very high pick because they still lack blue chips. That's where the manager's job comes in. So what if the coach and players will compete for their livelihoods? The manager has to evaluate his team's current talent level to achieve what is needed for the team with where it's at relative to his vision. In other words, he has to make the team weak or strong enough to achieve his goal. Currently, that's not the case. We're again on pace to be a fringe playoff team that either barely gets in or misses it and are compensated with a lackluster 11-19th ranked draft pick which is likely to not yield a blue chip like Connor Bedard or Fantilli etc.

I don't know what's so hard to understand. If some players are overperforming and endanger his immediate goal, he needs to work a trade if those players are not part of the long term vision (eg Montembault). If, for example, Josh anderson was miraculously pacing 82 pts, you'd want to trade him because he'll be on a decline relative to when you'd expect your team to compete.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Those are both indeed my posts iirc.

They're also very coherent with one another.

No one is saying MSL or the players of the team are aiming for a bottom 5 finish. That is the management's job.

The manager should have a vision as to what he wants to do with his team long term. In the present case, it's very clear a reset / rebuild is needed: we simply do not have the right pieces to contend in the long term. Now that this is out of the way, the best way to do so is to acquire great talents at the draft in modern day NHL and eventually complement that with free agents if need be. With where the team is right now in the manager's planning, the Habs should normally try for a very high pick because they still lack blue chips. That's where the manager's job comes in. So what if the coach and players will compete for their livelihoods? The manager has to evaluate his team's current talent level to achieve what is needed for the team with where it's at relative to his vision. In other words, he has to make the team weak or strong enough to achieve his goal. Currently, that's not the case. We're again on pace to be a fringe playoff team that either barely gets in or misses it and are compensated with a lackluster 11-19th ranked draft pick which is likely to not yield a blue chip like Connor Bedard or Fantilli etc.

I don't know what's so hard to understand. If some players are overperforming and endanger his immediate goal, he needs to work a trade if those players are not part of the long term vision (eg Montembault). If, for example, Josh anderson was miraculously pacing 82 pts, you'd want to trade him because he'll be on a decline relative to when you'd expect your team to compete.

I know what you are saying. I just don't agree with it. Hughes's vision is draft power and he's not shooting for a top 5 pick where he decides to trade Monty ASAP cause he is helping us win games. He will focus on scouting and taking the best player regardless of where we pick.

We all want Bedard. We are on the same page. However, Hughes is not going to mess up culture and development with the team on the ice now.

The vision part you are talking about is sort of how he manages Monahan. A Bergevin move would be to sign him to an extension but a Hughes move would be to trade him at the deadline for the best return but tell him before that we will consider signing you as a UFA in the off season if there is mutual interest.

 

[The Real Timo]

I really don't know how he makes the saves.

Neither does the opposition... hence he is so hard to score on

He deserves the start tomorrow at a minimum.

Allen is struggling too much.

Sounds like going to be a hard day "at work" for me tomorrow... starting around... hmm... 2 PM EST.

 

[LaP]

He deserves the start tomorrow at a minimum.

Allen is struggling too much.

I would not overplay him personally. I think there's still potential in him and he's young enough to figure it out. Overplaying him like we did with Price would not do him any favor. For me two games in two nights this should always be two different goalies.

I wish Sam would have waited next year to breakout We would have at least 2 more losses and 2 less wins if he was playing like last three years.

 

[RealityHurts]

I know what you are saying. I just don't agree with it. Hughes's vision is draft power and he's not shooting for a top 5 pick where he decides to trade Monty ASAP cause he is helping us win games. He will focus on scouting and taking the best player regardless of where we pick.

We all want Bedard. We are on the same page. However, Hughes is not going to mess up culture and development with the team on the ice now.

The vision part you are talking about is sort of how he manages Monahan. A Bergevin move would be to sign him to an extension but a Hughes move would be to trade him at the deadline for the best return but tell him before that we will consider signing you as a UFA in the off season if there is mutual interest.

That's the thing. We can be confident that the development has already been better than under Bergevin. However, one thing he does like Bergevin is that he's increasing the quantity of draft picks (otherwise referred by Bergevin to as darts to throw on a target). It's very unlikely (not to say impossible) that any of the kids you develop in 11-19 draft range wounds up as impactful as Bedard, Fantilli, Michkov or Carlsson though. We need to accept this and acknowledge there will be growing pains.

The problem is that, right now, there are NO growing pains. It's another freaking 1 year re-tool. It's like bergevin v2.0.

You NEED the high end talent we don't have enough of yet. Are you convinced Slaf is going to be a 100 point player?

New Jersey Devils have reached this point. We don't have the talent for this yet.

 

[LaP]

Right now, Monty is on pace for about 28 starts this year.

Regardless of whether he's playing good or bad, he needs more starts.

I was thinking around 35 starts at the beginning of the year. Otherwise you're playing Allen too much.

MSL should alternate. Allen can't play more then 40 games and Monty is not ready to play more than 40 game either.

 

[Habs Halifax]

That's the thing. We can be confident that the development has already been better than under Bergevin. However, one thing he does like Bergevin is that he's increasing the quantity of draft picks (otherwise referred by Bergevin to as darts to throw on a target). It's very unlikely (not to say impossible) that any of the kids you develop in 11-19 draft range wounds up as impactful as Bedard, Fantilli, Michkov or Carlsson though. We need to accept this and acknowledge there will be growing pains.

The problem is that, right now, there are NO growing pains. It's another freaking 1 year re-tool. It's like bergevin v2.0.

You NEED the high end talent we don't have enough of yet. Are you convinced Slaf is going to be a 100 point player?

New Jersey Devils have reached this point. We don't have the talent for this yet.

Sorry but you caught tank fever like several others. I understand you want Bedard but there are other talent we can draft. The key here is development with what you have and high draft power. It doesn't have to be a top 5 pick and it could very well be the 7th or 8th pick. Possible it's 10th - 12th range.

It's bad business to ruin current culture on the NHL club cause you want to play the lottery. Imagine the feeling you will have if we finish 4th last and someone from 5-10 wins the lottery.

There is a very low % to manage this team to suck and also win a lottery. Yes, I want Bedard too but look at the core Tampa and the Bruins have? Point, Kucherov, Cirelli, Marchand, Pasta, Bergeron are all late 1st rounders to 3rd round picks. There is talent to draft outside of the top 5. Top 5 is higher % but MSL and the players have a different plan and there is not much Hughes can do about it.

We need to focus on scouting and development. Hughes will try his best to accumulate more picks and he has done a wonderful job at that so far. He's not done yet.

 

[LaP]

Sorry but you caught tank fever like several others. I understand you want Bedard but there are other talent we can draft. The key here is development with what you have and high draft power. It doesn't have to be a top 5 pick and it could very well be the 7th or 8th pick. Possible it's 10th - 12th range.

It's bad business to ruin current culture on the NHL club cause you want to play the lottery. Imagine the feeling you will have if we finish 4th last and someone from 5-10 wins the lottery.

There is a very low % to manage this team to suck and also win a lottery. Yes, I want Bedard too but look at the core Tampa and the Bruins have? Point, Kucherov, Cirelli, Marchand, Pasta, Bergeron are all late 1st rounders to 3rd round picks. There is talent to draft outside of the top 5. Top 5 is higher % but MSL and the players have a different plan and there is not much Hughes can do about it.

We need to focus on scouting and development. Hughes will try his best to accumulate more picks and he has done a wonderful job at that so far. He's not done yet.

I agree with you but we should still manage for mid term and not short term though for at least until next summer. IMO if Monahan is worth a 1st at the deadline he should be moved. I understand why some guys want to sign him but personally i think it makes no sense unless you can move Dvorak. Both Monahan and Dvorak will be solid 3rd line centers moving forward and one of them will be redundant.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I agree with you but we should still manage for mid term and not short term though for at least until next summer. IMO if Monahan is worth a 1st at the deadline he should be moved. I understand why some guys want to sign him but personally i think it makes no sense unless you can move Dvorak. Both Monahan and Dvorak will be solid 3rd line centers moving forward and one of them will be redundant.

100% agree and I said in an earlier post that extending Monahan would be a Bergevin move. Hughes is not looking at tanking to a top 5 pick but he is looking at bring in more picks wherever he can.

If Monahan wants to stay, Hughes is likely to tell him that we will trade you to a contender for a playoff run and we can talk this summer in free agency. If you end up signing somewhere else, so be it but our plan is long term success and we prefer Monahan to chase a cup with another team while we bring in more futures.

Imagine getting a 1st to take Monahan and then getting a 1st at the deadline in trading him? That would be a "first" right?

 

[RealityHurts]

Sorry but you caught tank fever like several others. I understand you want Bedard but there are other talent we can draft. The key here is development with what you have and high draft power. It doesn't have to be a top 5 pick and it could very well be the 7th or 8th pick. Possible it's 10th - 12th range.

It's bad business to ruin current culture on the NHL club cause you want to play the lottery. Imagine the feeling you will have if we finish 4th last and someone from 5-10 wins the lottery.

There is a very low % to manage this team to suck and also win a lottery. Yes, I want Bedard too but look at the core Tampa and the Bruins have? Point, Kucherov, Cirelli, Marchand, Pasta, Bergeron are all late 1st rounders to 3rd round picks. There is talent to draft outside of the top 5. Top 5 is higher % but MSL and the players have a different plan and there is not much Hughes can do about it.

We need to focus on scouting and development. Hughes will try his best to accumulate more picks and he has done a wonderful job at that so far. He's not done yet.

At this point, I think we can agree to disagree.

Personally, I think you're overlooking what the Habs have done wrong in the past decade. Over 30 selections have skipped Kucherov. Of course, you'll get cinderella stories like his, but it's not the norm.

Most people have already accepted that picking between 10-20 is no-man's land and cripples a team long term. Especially a team like ours which urgently needs talent. Finishing around there is terrible.

You think we're tank lords and are centered around lottery, but this isn't true. Case by point, if you're last or 2nd to last, worst you can pick is 4th OA. Also, if we're 4th OA and lose lottery and wound up picking 6th, it is better for the long term compared to no man's land 10 to 20.

The reason the habs have been a perennial loser is that they pick in No man's land, or worst, 25-30.

It's that simple.

 

[LaP]

100% agree and I said in an earlier post that extending Monahan would be a Bergevin move. Hughes is not looking at tanking to a top 5 pick but he is looking at bring in more picks wherever he can.

The way i see it is your chance to draft an elite player in the first round is about 7-8% no matter where you pick in the top 20. Yes in the top 10 the chances will be higher and in the top 5 the chance will be even better but the reality is your chance to draft an elite player in the top 20-25 is still passable specially in a draft like next year.

So if you have 3 picks 15-25 in the first round i'd say your chance is probably the same as if you had a 8th or 9th pick. The draft is not an exact science but way too many guys (and GMs) forget that the more your picks the more exact the science will be.

If you own all 32 picks in the first round (impossible obviously) then you'll end up with probably 2-3 elite players no matter what. The more you draft the easier it is for the drafting team to find the gems. They can take gambles without being afraid to be judged for passing on the safe pick. If you have 3 picks in the first round you can gamble and be safe at the same time. If you have only 1 pick you must make a choice.

 

[Habs Halifax]

At this point, I think we can agree to disagree.

Personally, I think you're overlooking what the Habs have done wrong in the past decade. Over 30 selections have skipped Kucherov. Of course, you'll get cinderella stories like his, but it's not the norm.

Most people have already accepted that picking between 10-20 is no-man's land and cripples a team long term. Especially a team like ours which urgently needs talent. Finishing around there is terrible.

You think we're tank lords and are centered around lottery, but this isn't true. Case by point, if you're last or 2nd to last, worst you can pick is 4th OA. Also, if we're 4th OA and lose lottery and wound up picking 6th, it is better for the long term compared to no man's land 10 to 20.

The reason the habs have been a perennial loser is that they pick in No man's land, or worst, 25-30.

It's that simple.

We do disagree but I'm not looking for a cinderella run as the strategy. So I think I understand your tank fever but you don't understand what's really going to happen.

This will not be a liquidation sale to tank like the Blackhawks. However, we are going to sell where we can and we will be adding more picks/futures.

I know the Canes are struggling right now but they were considered cup contenders for a few years now. Canes core consists of how many top 5 picks bud? Answer is one... Svechnikov. And would look at that... other top 10 picks no longer with them (Lindholm, Skinner, H Fleury, Hanifin). They even signed KK who is a 3rd OA pick.

Tank fever is not the solution or sole strategy to build a contender.

 

[LaP]

Imagine getting a 1st to take Monahan and then getting a 1st at the deadline in trading him? That would be a "first" right?

Man that would be so great. Two first for taking Monahan contract. Don't think you can do better than that.

 

[Habs Halifax]

The way i see it is your chance to draft an elite player in the first round is about 7-8% no matter where you pick in the top 20. Yes in the top 10 the chances will be higher and in the top 5 the chance will be even better but the reality is your chance to draft an elite player in the top 20-25 is still passable specially in a draft like next year.

So if you have 3 picks 15-25 in the first round i'd say your chance is probably the same as if you had a 8th or 9th pick. The draft is not an exact science but way too many guys (and GMs) forget that the more your picks the more exact the science will be.

If you own all 32 picks in the first round (impossible obviously) then you'll end up with probably 2-3 elite players no matter what. The more you draft the easier it is for the drafting team to find the gems. They can take gambles without being afraid to be judged for passing on the safe pick. If you have 3 picks in the first round you can gamble and be safe at the same time. If you have only 1 pick you must make a choice.

The secrete is high draft power over a span of years. Diversify your picks and scout well. Try to bat 1/3 vs 1/5 or 1/10.

Canes have one player drafted in the top 10 (Svechnikov) and several others who are no longer with them (Lindholm, Skinner, H Fleury, Hanifin). And they added KK (3rd OA pick). They were considered cup contenders and are struggling now. Ducks draft well but have not been contenders for years. Got to have a good GM who manages well in all areas.

Suzuki, Caufield, Guhle are 10-20 range picks. Secrete is scouting and stock piling picks, not tank fever

Man that would be so great. Two first for taking Monahan contract. Don't think you can do better than that.

If we don't get a 1st at the deadline (hard to say if he is traded before that), I would expect two 2nd's or a solid prospect. Hughes knows what he is doing but if he extends him, fans will turn on him IMO. Rightfully so

 

[MXD]

Man that would be so great. Two first for taking Monahan contract. Don't think you can do better than that.

Imagine if somehow Calgary is really in need of a center due to injury or something and Monahan is sent back there for another first.

.... And now that you've thought about this, imagine the set of conditions for that new first rounder.

 

[The Great Weal]

This guy just seems like the nicest guy on the planet and works his off. I love his compete level.

 

[JustAHabFan]

He looked good last night. Recently, he has been better than Allen.

 

[LaP]

Imagine if somehow Calgary is really in need of a center due to injury or something and Monahan is sent back there for another first.
.... And now that you've thought about this, imagine the set of conditions for that new first rounder.

That would be funny but i don't think their GM can afford to do that. Giving a first to get Monahan back would be the kiss of death for him unless the team wins a cup.

 

[xX SEYF Xx]

Sorry but you caught tank fever like several others.

So I think I understand your tank fever but you don't understand what's really going to happen.

Tank fever is not the solution or sole strategy to build a contender.

Secrete is scouting and stock piling picks, not tank fever

Tank fever, there you go, I said it again for you