Ryan Johansen Saga III

[IHeartZherdev*]

Elliotte Friedman ‏@FriedgeHNIC 4m
John Davidson on Prime Time Sports says Johansen request on two-year bridge is "twice as much" as CBJ offer ($3M per).

So he is a bit too high and the Jackets are insultingly low. Just give him 2 year 10.5 million deal and move on, and stop the ego-maniacal self serving press tour. Front office looks really bad right now and this public spectacle certainly won't endear them to the NHPA, other agents, current players, or free agents.

Even if the demands from KO are over the top, no excuse to not sit and meet with him. JD and Jarmo should spend the time they are currently using to promote themselves in the media in a closed meeting room with KO banging out a deal.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

It has everything to do with the CBA.
The CBJ owns his rights for several more years, after that he can sign wherever he wants for as much money as possible.
Until then he can get an offer sheet from another team and if they want to pay him a billion dollars and give up 4 1st round picks then he's in business to likley go wherever he wants.
There is no reason for the CBJ to even consider $12M/2 years. If he had proven to be a franchise player then yes he could get that kind of money in a 4-7 year deal but he's under club control for 2 more years.

The CBA doesn't prevent teams from signing players to fair deals. The CBA also doesn't prevent players from holding out. Both sides have the right to use the leverage they have.

IMO, the current CBA isn't a reason to lowball a player, tell him to take it or leave it, go on a press tour disparaging the agent, and then refuse to meet with the agent.

If that is how the CBJ want to use the CBA, and if that's how they want to do business....well, that's their right. But I'm sure it's not going to make business very easy with players or agents going forward. I don't see how this public spectacle helps the team. I can see how it inflates JD's ego and press clippings.

 

[KJ Dangler]

So he is a bit too high and the Jackets are insultingly low. Just give him 2 year 10.5 million deal and move on, and stop the ego-maniacal self serving press tour. Front office looks really bad right now and this public spectacle certainly won't endear them to the NHPA, other agents, current players, or free agents.

Even if the demands from KO are over the top, no excuse to not sit and meet with him. JD and Jarmo should spend the time they are currently using to promote themselves in the media in a closed meeting room with KO banging out a deal.

I'll let John Davidson answer your question since he seems to be talking about you

What’s interesting is people talk who really don’t know the CBA or just want to see something happen. They say, ‘We’ll just meet halfway. Give him $4 million or $4.5 million.’ That doesn’t make sense. You don’t just give him an extra million or two. A lot of people say it who are writers, broadcasters, fans…they don’t understand the process. They don’t understand the CBA. It’s sitting there. It’s a document. What are we supposed to do, give in when we have rights? Give in when they have rights? Just give in? I doesn’t make sense.â€

 

[Tairy]

Any team would be very dumb to give up the amount of draft picks it would take to sign joey to an offer sheet. With jarmo and his staff draft picks are as good as gold. Joey getting signed to a 3mil bridge deal is not the best case scenario in my mind. The best case scenario would be buffalo signing joey to an 8x8 deal and giving up 4 first rounders. Can u even imagine?

 

[jackets4life]

Haven't really chimed in much because I'm not looking for a migraine. However, I will say this. I think Joey is absolutely crazy not to look at that 6 year deal and think "Wow, 5.3+ now as a 21 year old and my next contract will be likely $9-12M (depending on cap fluctuations) for long term". Hopefully someone back in Port Moody will wake him up and realize that is a fair deal. I can understand him not being happy with 2 year 6MM or the 8 year deal, but wow. It's just mind-boggling to me.

Basically I look at it like this:

Y1: $3M
Y2: $3M
Y3-6: $6.495M

Maybe he thinks he will be worth more than that if he takes a bridge now and then renegotiates in 2 years (probably is). But, of course, he's not even close to happy with the bridge on the table so that's not really an option as of now. Him wanting to skip right to the $6M for the bridge deal is absolute crazy talk though.

All I really have the authority to say is that, as a fan, if this drags on for another week or longer, let alone into the season, I will be happy to get my chance to boo the guy when he finally does decide to end the madness. Sure, I will be cheering again once he scores a couple beauties, but at first I'm not going to be happy. Throwing the teammates, fans, and rest of the organization to the curb in the name of greed just doesn't fly with me (and I'm sure many others). We, like the rest of the club all the way up to Jarmo, Bill, and JD, will just have to wait and see what the kid decides to do.

 

[BF3]

What did Joey do besides last season, one season? Nothing? OK just checking.

I thought CBJFO would go up to around $5 mil AAV on a bridge. Now I doubt they will even offer $4 mil.

2 years, $3.75 mil AAV would be my guess now.

Again - RyJo has no leverage.

 

[WashedUp]

This will be interesting to see how Joey handles sitting around watching Center Ice. Does he root against his teammates and hope that they lose? Obviously if they win without him his negotiating position gets worse. He can't play pick up hockey and risk getting hurt by a puck in his mouth or a twisted knee. So what does he do, besides pout?
.

Maybe Josh Gordon can get him a job selling used cars!

 

[oilerbear]

I want to pay him $4 million to $4.5 million per year. Who are his counterparts who are making $5.5 million to $6.0 million per year? I don't root for Johansen. I root for Columbus. Overpaying for a player, no matter how good they are, isn't good for the team.

Any agent is going to at least try to get the league average for his performance based on other players contracts negotiated at a % of the cap. It is not salary. It is % of cap.

He was 30G 30A centre at age 21.
Lets go back 15 seasons and look at post 05-06 lockout RFA contracts for players that got 30G 30A by 21 yr.

1. The list of multiple 30G 30A seasons by 21
Crosby 3;
Stamkos 3;
Ovechkin 2;
Malkin 2;
Gaborik 2.
they averaged in the 13-16% of cap when contract negotiated.
Clearly cannot use this group.

The players with 1 season 30G 30A by 21yr.
johansen,
Skinner,
E. staal,
Eberle,
Bergeron,
Horton,
Toews,
P. Kane,
Kopitar,
Tavares,
Seguin,
Hossa,
Heatley,
Gagne,
Thorton
Kovalchuk.

Their post 05-06 lockout RFA contracts average 10.4% of the cap.

10.4% of a 69M cap is 7.2M.

IF his agent does not get 7.2M the young man is getting paid less than average for a 21year old 30G 30A player.

Columbus Mgmt can talk all they want.

History of past contracts says Johansen's Agent is correct!

 

[GoJackets1]

Any agent is going to at least try to get the league average for his performance based on other players contracts negotiated at a % of the cap. It is not salary. It is % of cap.

He was 30G 30A centre at age 21.
Lets go back 15 seasons and look at post 05-06 lockout RFA contracts for players that got 30G 30A by 21 yr.

1. The list of multiple 30G 30A seasons by 21
Crosby 3;
Stamkos 3;
Ovechkin 2;
Malkin 2;
Gaborik 2.
they averaged in the 13-16% of cap when contract negotiated.
Clearly cannot use this group.

The players with 1 season 30G 30A by 21yr.
johansen,
Skinner,
E. staal,
Eberle,
Bergeron,
Horton,
Toews,
P. Kane,
Kopitar,
Tavares,
Seguin,
Hossa,
Heatley,
Gagne,
Thorton
Kovalchuk.

Their post 05-06 lockout RFA contracts average 10.4% of the cap.

10.4% of a 69M cap is 7.2M.

IF his agent does not get 7.2M the young man is getting paid less than average for a 21year old 30G 30A player.

Columbus Mgmt can talk all they want.

History of past contracts says Johansen's Agent is correct!

How many of those players had just as bad of a first 2 years as Joey though? Probably not all of them.

 

[BF3]

Yep cause all of those guys did nothing in their first two seasons as well.

 

[KJ Dangler]

@coreypronman: I could see a good argument from Johansen's camp he should be near the top of the comp list. But not 2-2.5X the average.

 

[alphafox]

View attachment 76075

@coreypronman: I could see a good argument from Johansen's camp he should be near the top of the comp list. But not 2-2.5X the average.

This, 1000x this. You have to wonder when teams are going to start avoiding Overhardt like some teams avoid Scott Boras in the MLB. TBetween this fiasco, Kesler, Turris, etc there is a clear pattern.

Regardless losing Johansen is a big blow in the short term. Hopefully this can get fixed or we can convince another team to give up some legit assets for johansen. On the bright side this does settle the Johansen vs Bobrovsky jersey debate. Bobrovsky it is.

 

[We Want Ten]

So he is a bit too high and the Jackets are insultingly low. Just give him 2 year 10.5 million deal and move on, and stop the ego-maniacal self serving press tour. Front office looks really bad right now and this public spectacle certainly won't endear them to the NHPA, other agents, current players, or free agents.

Even if the demands from KO are over the top, no excuse to not sit and meet with him. JD and Jarmo should spend the time they are currently using to promote themselves in the media in a closed meeting room with KO banging out a deal.

Your thesaurus is broken.

 

[thebus2288*]

Johansen+2nd rounder for Wilson+Smith+Forsberg

 

[oilerbear]

How many of those players had just as bad of a first 2 years as Joey though? Probably not all of them.

If you were 1 time 30G 30A player at 21yr.
stands to say you were not more than 1 30g 30A season 4 years past draft.
Plus ask who these players were partnered with at this time.

johansen, - Umberger, foligno, Jenner
Skinner - E. staal
E. staal - J. williams, Brind amour, Cole, Whitney
Eberle - Hall, RNH
Bergeron - Boyes, Murray, Sturm
Horton - jokinen, Stumpel, Weiss
Toews - Kane, Sharp, Hossa
P. Kane - Toews, Hossa, Sharp
Kopitar, - Frolov, Brown, Cammalerri
Tavares, - Moulson, Okposo, Parenteau, Grabner
Seguin, - Benn, nichuskin
Hossa, - Alfredson, Havlat, T. white
Heatley, - Kozlov, Kovalchuk, Savard
Gagne, - Roenick, Rechi, Leclair
Thorton - Guerin, Allison, Rolston, Samsanov
Kovalchuk - Koslov, Heatley, Savard

 

[orthosrgn2]

About one year and a half years ago we got a glimpse of Johansen's true character as he was sent to Springfield to help the farm club in a pennant race. His non verbal response was to get benched for the games. Now he feels he is worth more than Dubi after one good year,says the CBJ are slapping him in the face and decides to leave Columbus right when the season is to start. He has the right to do all those things, but his actions are dripping with examples of immaturity, narcissism and concerns about his true desire to be part of this team and be a leader. By thinking that his singular, personal wishes ( which are in most people's opinion well out of the norm for the CBA) are more important than the team speaks volumes about his concern about me vs team. There is no one that is bigger than the team or the organization. If one feels that way then I agree with JD and JK.....let him go home and I hope he enjoys thinking about hockey and the money he is missing. I disagree with JD however in that I would be looking for teams willing to take on such a self-indulgent player. (Just make sure the return is worth the trade). And oh if it happened to be a bottom dweller in a an undesirable location I can't say I wouldn't be chuckling inside!

 

[GoJackets1]

If you were 1 time 30G 30A player at 21yr.
stands to say you were not more than 1 30g 30A season 4 years past draft.
Plus ask who these players were partnered with at this time.

johansen, - Umberger, foligno, Jenner
Skinner - E. staal
E. staal - J. williams, Brind amour, Cole, Whitney
Eberle - Hall, RNH
Bergeron - Boyes, Murray, Sturm
Horton - jokinen, Stumpel, Weiss
Toews - Kane, Sharp, Hossa
P. Kane - Toews, Hossa, Sharp
Kopitar, - Frolov, Brown, Cammalerri
Tavares, - Moulson, Okposo, Parenteau, Grabner
Seguin, - Benn, nichuskin
Hossa, - Alfredson, Havlat, T. white
Heatley, - Kozlov, Kovalchuk, Savard
Gagne, - Roenick, Rechi, Leclair
Thorton - Guerin, Allison, Rolston, Samsanov
Kovalchuk - Koslov, Heatley, Savard

I understand what you're trying to say. Each of them had one 30g, 30a season before they were 22. But how many of those players had a total of 14g, and 19a COMBINED in their other years before they turned 22, not counting the 30, 30 season?

I have a feeling it's not very many...

 

[Sore Loser]

Your thesaurus is broken.

Remember: this is the same guy that used the phrase "more better" earlier in this discussion...

If you were 1 time 30G 30A player at 21yr.
stands to say you were not more than 1 30g 30A season 4 years past draft.
Plus ask who these players were partnered with at this time.

johansen, - Umberger, foligno, Jenner
Skinner - E. staal
E. staal - J. williams, Brind amour, Cole, Whitney
Eberle - Hall, RNH
Bergeron - Boyes, Murray, Sturm
Horton - jokinen, Stumpel, Weiss
Toews - Kane, Sharp, Hossa
P. Kane - Toews, Hossa, Sharp
Kopitar, - Frolov, Brown, Cammalerri
Tavares, - Moulson, Okposo, Parenteau, Grabner
Seguin, - Benn, nichuskin
Hossa, - Alfredson, Havlat, T. white
Heatley, - Kozlov, Kovalchuk, Savard
Gagne, - Roenick, Rechi, Leclair
Thorton - Guerin, Allison, Rolston, Samsanov
Kovalchuk - Koslov, Heatley, Savard

Sorry, but you're wrong on most of these "pairings"

Signed - the guy who has actually watched the games. And you can't tell me that Olli Jokinin, Josef Stumpel, and Stephen Weiss made Nathan Horton a physical, banging RW ... or that that has any comparison to the situation that Ryan Johansen is in. None of those players are any better than Foligno or Umberger. Jokinen had a couple of decent years surrounded by a career of underachieving - if anything, he was detrimental to Horton's development.

What a ridiculously one-sided attempt at proving your point. Just because guys played on the same team doesn't mean they spent the entire year together.

Actually on the topic, I'm of the belief that JD and JK making their offers public was the right move. Immediately upon doing so, they silenced most of their critics - people who assumed Johansen wasn't being negotiated with, was being held hostage, or being low-balled. That 8 year offer is a damn fine offer, and would make Ryan Johansen higher paid than John Tavares, over a longer term. That alone makes it a contract worth signing, unless your name is Toews, Kane, Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, or equivalent. To turn your nose on that offer after averaging just above 0.5 points per game in your first three years in the league is insulting. JD is right, and this is why they had to make their situation publicly known.

You can't have the fans in Columbus turning on you for not signing a kid. It's one thing if they were allowing him to walk without giving it a shot - it's another thing that they are standing up for what they believe is right (and in my opinion, rightfully so). I'm a big Ryan Johansen fan, really think he has the potential to land somewhere between Jason Spezza and Ryan Getzlaf in his prime. But this situation has been blown entirely off course by either him and his agent, and it will be difficult to look past that from this point forward in his career. Which, by the way, is what is being hurt the most.

Would you rather be guaranteed $46 million dollars over the next eight years of your life, or would you rather go home and sit for two months (making nothing) while the team refuses to talk to your agent because he's alienated himself from them?

Let's say he wants $7 million per year for those eight years. That means this whole situation is being ballooned over $10 million dollars ... which would stand to be about twice as much money as he will miss by missing this season, which has to be taken in as a possibility. Take it from a guy who works damn hard for what money I do earn - there are worse things than $46 million dollar guaranteed contracts.

 

[Robert]

Elliotte Friedman ‏@FriedgeHNIC 4m
John Davidson on Prime Time Sports says Johansen request on two-year bridge is "twice as much" as CBJ offer ($3M per).

I said 5M per yesterday based on what I think Joey's potential is.... a better number is probably the split between 6 and 3.... Around 4.5M per.... The biggest issue is not the price per season but the term, Ryan Johansen is going to be a great NHL center wherever he plays, I hope he gets signed for at least 5 years in Columbus, anything less is an opportunity LOST.

 

[DJA]

I said 5M per yesterday based on what I think Joey's potential is.... a better number is probably the split between 6 and 3.... Around 4.5M per.... The biggest issue is not the price per season but the term, Ryan Johansen is going to be a great NHL center wherever he plays, I hope he gets signed for at least 5 years in Columbus, anything less is an opportunity LOST.

You also guaranteed that Johansen would be on the ice in a CBJ sweater on opening night. Still feeling confident?

 

[jackets4life]

I said 5M per yesterday based on what I think Joey's potential is.... a better number is probably the split between 6 and 3.... Around 4.5M per.... The biggest issue is not the price per season but the term, Ryan Johansen is going to be a great NHL center wherever he plays, I hope he gets signed for at least 5 years in Columbus, anything less is an opportunity LOST.

I don't know. I think the offers we heard today are it. These guys are straight shooters. The 3 Amigos behind the microphones today have no reason or incentive to give in to a player who has literally nowhere to turn. They have him backed into a corner. Johansen will have to decide whether it's better to play for us at one of those offers or to sit out a season with no salary whatsoever. IMO, Johansen's only hope for those offers to increase substantially is to holdout until into the regular season and hope the team comes out to another floundering start. If we come out strong and tear it up I'm not sure I see a contract happening in the end.

 

[Robert]

You also guaranteed that Johansen would be on the ice in a CBJ sweater on opening night. Still feeling confident?

Absolutely…. The CBJ have the potential to make the second round as long as they have excellent goaltending and a first line center as Joey…. JD will sign him soon, he's thinking contracts many years in the future and every penny saved now are pennies for the future..

JD is a smart man..... we are lucky to have him.

 

[Sore Loser]

I don't know. I think the offers we heard today are it. These guys are straight shooters. The 3 Amigos behind the microphones today have no reason or incentive to give in to a player who has literally nowhere to turn. They have him backed into a corner. Johansen will have to decide whether it's better to play for us at one of those offers or to sit out a season with no salary whatsoever. IMO, Johansen's only hope for those offers to increase substantially is to holdout until into the regular season and hope the team comes out to another floundering start. If we come out strong and tear it up I'm not sure I see a contract happening in the end.

I agree. For these reasons, I could see a trade possibility opening up - whether either side wants to admit it or not. If he wants $7 million a year, send him away for a comparable player - a $7 million per year player, or at least a bevy of guys that would bring on that kind of return.

Otherwise, his camp needs to get down to brass tacks and give him some decent advice.

 

[Fred Glover]

Trying to make sense of this, I see the Jackets standing firm for a number of reasons:

Jenner, Murray, Wennberg, Dano, Rychel, etc.

If the Jackets break the bank and give in to RJ, then what becomes of the market value of the above players in a year or two? In order to keep the core of young players together, the Jackets need to negotiate keeping the other young players in mind and what they will fetch when it comes time for their new contracts

 

[Sore Loser]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-p...tion--reveals-contract-numbers-191358217.html

Puck Daddy weighing in, and making some damn good points. Especially with the last line.