RW/LW Klim Kostin (2017, 31st, STL, traded to EDM)

[Pavel Buchnevich]

They are all hockey players looking to play in the NHL though. Good players should be able to develop in the CHL regardless of where they were born. It mimics the NHL more than any other Junior league. Why would Russians be the only players who can't grasp the NA game at the NA junior levels? And if they can't why is that the CHLs fault? Maybe these guys were just never going to be as good at the NA game as they would have been in Russia.

Did you read Atas' post?

Its more about culture than it is about hockey.

If the average person from NA was dropped in Russia, the hardest thing you'd have to adjust to wouldn't be your occupation because its probably the same type of work in Russia, it would be the culture. The language, the way things are done, the way people act, the entertainment, the lack of people you know.

When you are struggling with those things, it makes the hockey even harder. Don't underestimate how it mentally effects these players in the CHL. They are only 16, 17, 18, 19 years old. Its easier for more mature 21, 22, 23, 24 year olds to adjust to NA hockey, especially once they've already learned how to become a professional hockey player and they don't really have to worry about how good they are vs others, more how they'll adjust to the culture.

 

[Daximus]

Fourand4

Did you read Atas' post?

Its more about culture than it is about hockey.

If the average person from NA was dropped in Russia, the hardest thing you'd have to adjust to wouldn't be your occupation because its probably the same type of work in Russia, it would be the culture. The language, the way things are done, the way people act, the entertainment, the lack of people you know.

When you are struggling with those things, it makes the hockey even harder. Don't underestimate how it mentally effects these players in the CHL. They are only 16, 17, 18, 19 years old. Its easier for more mature 21, 22, 23, 24 year olds to adjust to NA hockey, especially once they've already learned how to become a professional hockey player and they don't really have to worry about how good they are vs others, more how they'll adjust to the culture.

I understand that but why would Russians suffer the most? What makes them any different than Finns, Czechs, Swedes, Germans, Swiss or Danes? Why can all of these guys come over with the same barriers and no one blames the CHL when they don't make it? Why would Russians be the only ones, that according to posters on here, have the most troube adapting? I think it as far more to do with the individual player than it does with the CHL is what my point is. If Kostin can't play well over here at the Junior level I question whether he could do it at the NHL level where the game is very much the same but competition gets much much harder. If he's any good he should be able to come over here and dominate on a good team. Much like guys like Ehlers, Draisaitl have done or and for more current examples Hischier, Valimaki or Bucek.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I understand that but why would Russians suffer the most? What makes them any different than Finns, Czechs, Swedes, Germans, Swiss or Danes? Why can all of these guys come over with the same barriers and no one blames the CHL when they don't make it? Why would Russians be the only ones, that according to posters on here, have the most troube adapting? I think it as far more to do with the individual player than it does with the CHL is what my point is. If Kostin can't play well over here at the Junior level I question whether he could do it at the NHL level where the game is very much the same but competition gets much much harder. If he's any good he should be able to come over here and dominate on a good team. Much like guys like Ehlers, Draisaitl have done or and for more current examples Hischier, Valimaki or Bucek.

The culture in NA is more similar to those countries than to Russia. Also, I wouldn't say that those players don't struggle as well. I've read about players from Sweden and Finland struggling with English and the culture, but its probably easier for the average player from those countries to adapt to NA than the average player from Russia.

 

[Daximus]

Daximus

The culture in NA is more similar to those countries than to Russia. Also, I wouldn't say that those players don't struggle as well. I've read about players from Sweden and Finland struggling with English and the culture, but its probably easier for the average player from those countries to adapt to NA than the average player from Russia.

I just don't see how though. They face many of the same cultural and language barriers. The main difference is those countries don't blame the CHL for "ruining" a prospect. Those players take the ownes on themselves. Maybe they just weren't cut out for the NA game in the first place. And in turn the NHL game.

 

[Acallabeth]

We have already discussed that many times, let's get back to Kostin...

 

[vorky]

I just don't see how though. They face many of the same cultural and language barriers. The main difference is those countries don't blame the CHL for "ruining" a prospect. Those players take the ownes on themselves. Maybe they just weren't cut out for the NA game in the first place. And in turn the NHL game.

read this http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2003705

 

[Atas2000]

I just don't see how though. They face many of the same cultural and language barriers. The main difference is those countries don't blame the CHL for "ruining" a prospect. Those players take the ownes on themselves. Maybe they just weren't cut out for the NA game in the first place. And in turn the NHL game.

http://chl.ca/55-chl-players-competing-at-2014-iihf-world-junior-hockey-championship

The 55 players includes a representative from all 10 participating countries including Canada who leads the way with 21 CHL players followed by the Czech Republic with eight players, Switzerland and Germany with six players each, while Finland, Russia, Sweden, and the United States each have three CHL players, followed by Norway and Slovakia with one.

Nuff said. Most NA posters also don't realize that for some mysterious reason top hockey nations have significantly less top players in the CHL than the likes of Switzerland and Germany.

It is no coincidence that US, Russian, Sweden and Finland develop theit top talent at home.

CHL is developing a lot of great canadian prospects and it's fine. But obviously it is not the best option also for Swedes or Finns. Look up this year's draft. NHL GMs select finnish, swedish and russian players from home leagues. They certainly know something about prospects. And obviously top many european prospects choose to develop at home too.

 

[93LEAFS]

http://chl.ca/55-chl-players-competing-at-2014-iihf-world-junior-hockey-championship



Nuff said. Most NA posters also don't realize that for some mysterious reason top hockey nations have significantly less top players in the CHL than the likes of Switzerland and Germany.

It is no coincidence that US, Russian, Sweden and Finland develop theit top talent at home.

CHL is developing a lot of great canadian prospects and it's fine. But obviously it is not the best option also for Swedes or Finns. Look up this year's draft. NHL GMs select finnish, swedish and russian players from home leagues. They certainly know something about prospects. And obviously top many european prospects choose to develop at home too.

The United States best player played in the CHL, and the Czech's current best player also played in the CHL (although that is more debatable). Also, the highest drafted Swede this year was from the CHL, and a Finn from the OHL was drafted 5th overall, so you can't fully appeal to draft order and where GM's select them. Obviously those countries produce talent that comes from their domestic leagues, and most of the high picks are being drafted out of men's leagues.

 

[Daximus]

Daximus

http://chl.ca/55-chl-players-competing-at-2014-iihf-world-junior-hockey-championship



Nuff said. Most NA posters also don't realize that for some mysterious reason top hockey nations have significantly less top players in the CHL than the likes of Switzerland and Germany.

It is no coincidence that US, Russian, Sweden and Finland develop theit top talent at home.

CHL is developing a lot of great canadian prospects and it's fine. But obviously it is not the best option also for Swedes or Finns. Look up this year's draft. NHL GMs select finnish, swedish and russian players from home leagues. They certainly know something about prospects. And obviously top many european prospects choose to develop at home too.

That's all fine and dandy there bud. But it still doesn't explain why Russians would have a higher failure rate when coming over. What you posted has literally nothing to do with that actually. I'm trying to say it's probably not the CHLs fault that a player can't adapt. It likely has more to do with the player than anything else. And having more Russians fail is likely because there are more Russian imports coming over than anyone else. Of the 44 Russian prospects listed on Elite Prospects 15 are in CHL leagues. That's 34% of the Russian prospects on EP in the CHL right now. Some of the are just bound to not adapt well.

 

[Caser]

That's all fine and dandy there bud. But it still doesn't explain why Russians would have a higher failure rate when coming over. What you posted has literally nothing to do with that actually. I'm trying to say it's probably not the CHLs fault that a player can't adapt. It likely has more to do with the player than anything else. And having more Russians fail is likely because there are more Russian imports coming over than anyone else. Of the 44 Russian prospects listed on Elite Prospects 15 are in CHL leagues. That's 34% of the Russian prospects on EP in the CHL right now. Some of the are just bound to not adapt well.

Actually you and Atas2000 are talking about the same thing: CHL is a good league, but Russians fail to adapt. That's why it might be reasonable to keep them in Russia until they're developed enough that the adaptation stuff won't hurt them that bad anymore. Actually there are some more complicated things about the CHL/Russia stuff and Russian hockey school specifics, that's why there is a separate thread for all of that.

 

[Phry]

Adjusting to playing against men in a pro league aside; he still looks like a perimeter player from his highlights.

He'll land in the 9-18 range by my estimation. We'll see though! That Russia-CHL series will be very important for his ranking!

 

[Atas2000]

Adjusting to playing against men in a pro league aside; he still looks like a perimeter player from his highlights.

He'll land in the 9-18 range by my estimation. We'll see though! That Russia-CHL series will be very important for his ranking!

It won't in a way. If he plays well, the WJC will have impact on his ranking and I hope that that will be the case.

 

[Phry]

It won't in a way. If he plays well, the WJC will have impact on his ranking and I hope that that will be the case.

Hopefully he stays on the right side of the politics of the WJC-U20 team.. The CHL/Russia series he'll have a better chance at being put in important situations.

Also, it will be a showcase of him on a smaller ice surface. Pretty important factor when evaluating Eastern European perimeter players.

 

[covfefe]

That's all fine and dandy there bud. But it still doesn't explain why Russians would have a higher failure rate when coming over. What you posted has literally nothing to do with that actually. I'm trying to say it's probably not the CHLs fault that a player can't adapt. It likely has more to do with the player than anything else. And having more Russians fail is likely because there are more Russian imports coming over than anyone else. Of the 44 Russian prospects listed on Elite Prospects 15 are in CHL leagues. That's 34% of the Russian prospects on EP in the CHL right now. Some of the are just bound to not adapt well.

Read this article:

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/evgeny-kuznetsov-capitals-russia-hockey/

 

[Daximus]

Read this article:

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/evgeny-kuznetsov-capitals-russia-hockey/

I have done so already.

 

[covfefe]

I feel similarly to you but I think there are some baseline differences that make it harder for Russians to come to Canada...very few Russians speak English. The same cannot be said for Finnish, Swedish, Swiss, German players. Czechs and Slovaks would be a good comparable but not many of their top players come to the CHL. That's but one factor, and I think, quite a significant one.

 

[MaxV]

I'm trying to say it's probably not the CHLs fault that a player can't adapt.

It's not. Why are you Canadians taking this as if it's an attack on CHL? It has NOTHING to do with a quality of that league.

A Russian kid developing in CHL is not the same thing as a Canadian kid developing there.

- Teenage kid away from his family.
- Teenage kid in a new Country, adopting to a new culture and trying to learn a new language.
- Learning a brand new system, with different philosophy of the game.

Becoming a good pro is really difficult as it is, why throw extra obstacles on top of that? For a chance to be drafted higher?

Edit: I think sometimes fans forget that strikes are also people.

 

[Daximus]

I feel similarly to you but I think there are some baseline differences that make it harder for Russians to come to Canada...very few Russians speak English. The same cannot be said for Finnish, Swedish, Swiss, German players. Czechs and Slovaks would be a good comparable but not many of their top players come to the CHL. That's but one factor, and I think, quite a significant one.

But I mean if you are serious about coming over would you not try and learn the language? You likely have to learn it anyways to make it to the NHL full time so if I'm a young Russian whose got eyes on the NHL I'd probably be focusing some of my attention that is left over after hockey to learn the language of the area I plan on spending 20+ years of my life in.

It's not. Why are you Canadians taking this as if it's an attack on CHL? It has NOTHING to do with a quality of that league.

A Russian kid developing in CHL is not the same thing as a Canadian kid developing there.

- Teenage kid away from his family.
- Teenage kid in a new Country, adopting to a new culture and trying to learn a new language.
- Learning a brand new system, with different philosophy of the game.

Becoming a good pro is really difficult as it is, why throw extra obstacles on top of that? For a chance to be drafted higher?

Edit: I think sometimes fans forget that strikes are also people.

Well the poster made it seem like the CHL would ruin him. When I can't see how they could possibly ruin a player when it is likely the best set of junior leagues in the world to prepare a player for the NHL as it mimics it in virtually every single way right down to rink size and rule set.

The thing is all 3 of those things are going to be obstacles to the NHL as well. So if you are really serious about the NHL you'd think you would want to learn all those things well before you get there. If you don't care about the NHL than it doesn't really matter but players from all over the world outside of NA face the exact same obstacles to the NHL but those who are serious about making it will overcome those obstacles.

Some will fail for sure, it's inevitable. But if they can't handle the 3 obstacles listed above than they likely shouldn't even give the NHL a shot because they will have to face them at some point.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

There was an IIHF study done a decade ago that proved Euros who stay in Europe longer post-draft go on to play longer NHL careers. Granted, it was done using pre-lockout data and served to benefit Euro leagues but stats are stats.

Personally, I dont get why Euros come over as teenagers. The majority of top NHL Euros are doing just fine with little to no exposure to the North American game as teens

 

[Daximus]

There was an IIHF study done a decade ago that proved Euros who stay in Europe longer post-draft go on to play longer NHL careers. Granted, it was done using pre-lockout data and served to benefit Euro leagues but stats are stats.

Personally, I dont get why Euros come over as teenagers. The majority of top NHL Euros are doing just fine with little to no exposure to the North American game as teens

Was the same study done on Euro's who come over pre-draft? I wonder what those results would look like. Either way I think the best players in the world can adapt regardless. Guys like Ovi or Malkin if they would have choosen to come over would still be the amazing players they are today. The truth is the CHL never gets those kinds of players to come over anyways so there is really no way to find out. We saw that Patrick Kane could come to the CHL and still develop into one of the best wingers in the game. Hossa and Chara came over, we didn't break them. Voracek, Palat and Krejci came over, we didn't break them. Good players will adapt. The CHL likely weeds out the ones that definitely couldn't make it well before they even hit the draft board. Or in many cases, even afterwards.

 

[vorky]

Hossa had full season against men under his belt when coming to CHL.

 

[MaxV]

Hossa had full season against men under his belt when coming to CHL.

That's just about the dumbest decision anyone can make. It worked out for Hossa, I guess he was already developed. It didn't work out for Nail Yakupov.

This sort of decision is similar to a baseball prospect going to Single A level after he played in AAA.

 

[vorky]

That's just about the dumbest decision anyone can make. It worked out for Hossa, I guess he was already developed. It didn't work out for Nail Yakupov.

This sort of decision is similar to a baseball prospect going to Single A level after he played in AAA.

Agree, european players should move to NA as fully developed players at their 20-25.

 

[93LEAFS]

That's just about the dumbest decision anyone can make. It worked out for Hossa, I guess he was already developed. It didn't work out for Nail Yakupov.

This sort of decision is similar to a baseball prospect going to Single A level after he played in AAA.

Yakupov played his 16-year-old season mostly in the MHL. Of all the things you could say went wrong with Yakupov I don't think playing against men, then going back to play kids is at the top of the reasons.

 

[Anardil]

The whole CHL/Russia debate started again once someone mentioned that Russian player X should come to the CHL. The same group of posters start the fire + throw fuel on it by using the blanket statement: Only if he wants to ruin his career, (or some variation.) It's funny that there hasn't been one post about Kostin's game since that post.