Speculation: Russo on the status of Kaprizov’s contract negotiations

[kp61c]

How do we want to discard him when we would prefer to sign him for 8 instead of 5 years for big money? Or are you trolling on both directions again? Last I heard both sides were close on a 5 by 9 deal, right in the middle and favoring Kap by a year. All that is left is pure speculation about kap wanting 2-3 years and running to ufa. I think many wild fans would be happy with 4 just to get this done, you cry wolf that we aren't paying him enough, then we are paying him too much, then we want to discard him, that we aren't walking him to ufa, that we don't want him, that we want him for too long. Have I covered everything?

Guessing everyone involved wants him playing hockey for good money this fall for a term that works for everyone where they all concede a little bit. Because that is generally how negotiations work right? What exactly has been reported that hasn't been in good faith?

Yes, the team doesn't offer him enough to stay there longer there than he wants to. The goal is to use all his prime years till he is 30-32 and then discard him like and old boot. A compromise would be to offer a cheap short-term deal but the team prefers to bend the player over. It's not fair, but Kaprizov has no leverage. His only choice is to put on a happy face and take it like a man.

 

[Al Lagoon]

Yes, the team doesn't offer him enough to stay there longer there than he wants to. The goal is to use all his prime years till he is 30-32 and then discard him like and old boot. A compromise would be to offer a cheap short-term deal but the team prefers to bend the player over. It's not fair, but Kaprizov has no leverage. His only choice is to put on a happy face and take it like a man.

I'd put on a happy face and take it like a man if I was offered 40 million to play hockey.

 

[JoemAvs]

You can think it's a poor way to negotiate or think that insisting on longer term isn't necessarily in the team's interest, but that's just a difference of opinion. "Bad faith" is something else entirely and it's an unfair accusation to make here.

Frankly I don't see how any of this amounts to "abuse" or "force" either, unless one thinks the CBA itself is abusive. Realistically this isn't going to get to the point where Kaprizov is forced to sit out the season anyway, because at some point the team is going to wash their hands of it and look to trade him. There's no telling if that's a week from now, the first day of the regular season, or sometime in November, but it'll happen before they let an asset rot on the vine.

I get why the Wild really, really, really want term here. Fully understandable.

My whole point is though that the CBA says they only have him under team control for 3 more years. So if he has no intention of signing for longer than that, the Wild telling him to sign for 5+ years or otherwise go back to Russia is IMO bad faith. Especially considering that with his status, he has no real recourse here because he can't go to arbitration or sign an OS. You are basically forcing him to relinquish his right to become an UFA 3 years from now or otherwise play in the KHL for the time being (aka hold his NHL career hostage). Thats IMO bad faith.

I have said all along that cheap (way less than KK would like) 1 year deal + trade at the 2022 draft is the way forward here if its clear that there is no longterm future for KK in Minnesota. Maybe Guerin can still get that rumored 5 year deal somehow over the line but if that is on the table from the KK camp then what is he exactly waiting for?
KK would already doing him a pretty big favor there so get on with it. Either way KK is already missing valuable time in camp. Which is certainly not what a team with a 1 year window before the huge recapture penalty hits should allow to drag out. This is no Eichel situation. Waiting won't make anything better (or improve offers or the health of your asset).

 

[Ban Hammered]

Yes, the team doesn't offer him enough to stay there longer there than he wants to. The goal is to use all his prime years till he is 30-32 and then discard him like and old boot. A compromise would be to offer a cheap short-term deal but the team prefers to bend the player over. It's not fair, but Kaprizov has no leverage. His only choice is to put on a happy face and take it like a man.

God you are a broken record.
The Wild had to wait 5 years after drafting him.. through two KHL contracts...for him to come over.
Then...after not playing a full schedule or a full set of teams...the Wild have offered to make him the highest paid player at his position who has as little NHL game experience as he does. They also brought him over on a two year deal and immediately burned one of those years without him ever playing a game to get him to RFA status faster. But the reason he is the group of RFA he is...is entirely on him. He's the one who didn't come over sooner which would have changed his RFA status. So the Wild have basically bent over for him at nearly every turn and done what he wanted. Now they would like a little give back from him in terms of a longer deal ( still giving him a high AAV...)
But yeah...he's the one being bent over...

 

[Chrisinroch]

I know, good faith is to cave in to all Guerin's demands and take it like a man. Funny thing that Kaprizov has no leverage whatsoever and will do exactly that and then he will put on a happy face even though he will be crying inside.

Now ^ THIS is an example of a bad faith argument. It’s a rhetorical prop called a “straw man”.

The parties each have leverage. They are both using that leverage.

 

[Bazeek]

I get why the Wild really, really, really want term here. Fully understandable.

My whole point is though that the CBA says they only have him under team control for 3 more years. So if he has no intention of signing for longer than that, the Wild telling him to sign for 5+ years or otherwise go back to Russia is IMO bad faith. Especially considering that with his status, he has no real recourse here because he can't go to arbitration or sign an OS. You are basically forcing him to relinquish his right to become an UFA 3 years from now or otherwise choose to play in the KHL for the time being. Thats IMO bad faith.

I have said all along that cheap (way less than KK would like) 1 year deal + trade at the 2022 draft is the way forward here if its clear that there is no longterm future for KK in Minnesota. Maybe Guerin can still get that rumored 5 year deal somehow over the line but if that is on the table from the KK then what is he exactly waiting for?
KK would already doing him a pretty big favor there so get on with it. Either way KK is already missing valuable time in camp. Which is certainly not what a team with a 1 year window before the huge recapture penalty hits should allow to drag out. This is no Eichel situation. Waiting won't make anything better (or improve offers or the health of your asset).

It's really not. If the intent of the CBA was to limit team control that strongly there would be language to enforce that by restricting RFA contract lengths or giving RFAs more leverage.

And of course there is language intended to give RFAs Kaprizov's age more leverage in these negotiations, in the form of offer sheets and arbitration rights. The fact that Kaprizov doesn't have those rights when he normally would is a direct consequence of his past decisions: he waited longer than usual to start playing NHL games and elected to burn the first year on his ELC. Had he chosen differently he would likely have more leverage in his first contract extension. That's not the team's fault and it's not their responsibility to surrender leverage because of it.

 

[Foppberg]

Take it like a man good Lord.

 

[AKL]

Bad faith means to be dishonest about your stance, to intend to deceive the other side, to declare your intentions as one thing, knowing full well you don't intend to do what you said.

Can y'all stop using it to mean the Wild won't just give Kaprizov exactly what he wants?

 

[kp61c]

Now ^ THIS is an example of a bad faith argument. It’s a rhetorical prop called a “straw man”.

The parties each have leverage. They are both using that leverage.

What leverage does Kaprizov have? To shoot himself in the foot and sit the season out? You need backbone to do it, i don't see it in Kaprizov.

 

[ThatGuy22]

I get why the Wild really, really, really want term here. Fully understandable.

My whole point is though that the CBA says they only have him under team control for 3 more years. So if he has no intention of signing for longer than that, the Wild telling him to sign for 5+ years or otherwise go back to Russia is IMO bad faith. Especially considering that with his status, he has no real recourse here because he can't go to arbitration or sign an OS. You are basically forcing him to relinquish his right to become an UFA 3 years from now or otherwise play in the KHL for the time being (aka hold his NHL career hostage). Thats IMO bad faith.

I have said all along that cheap (way less than KK would like) 1 year deal + trade at the 2022 draft is the way forward here if its clear that there is no longterm future for KK in Minnesota. Maybe Guerin can still get that rumored 5 year deal somehow over the line but if that is on the table from the KK camp then what is he exactly waiting for?
KK would already doing him a pretty big favor there so get on with it. Either way KK is already missing valuable time in camp. Which is certainly not what a team with a 1 year window before the huge recapture penalty hits should allow to drag out. This is no Eichel situation. Waiting won't make anything better (or improve offers or the health of your asset).

Kaprizov has options. He just wants his cake and eat it to.

He could have Theonous come back with a one year deal offer at like 3 or 4 million, and given how Cheap it is the Wild would probably agree to get him to camp. Next year he'd have arb rights and could get his wish to get to UFA as soon as possible. He wouldn't get quite as much money as the Wild are offering with the term, but that's the nature of the beast. Maybe he'd get it back at UFA, maybe he wouldn't.

But all indications we currently have is that he wants 9 + million the Wild are offering with Term, on short term.

 

[Mr Positive]

What leverage does Kaprizov have? To shoot himself in the foot and sit the season out? You need backbone to do it, i don't see it in Kaprizov.

There is some leverage in that Minnesota needs him. This year's cap isnt too bad so it would be good to go for it. But yes there are options he cant use

 

[JoemAvs]

It's really not. If the intent of the CBA was to limit team control that strongly there would be language to enforce that by restricting RFA contract lengths or giving RFAs more leverage.

And of course there is language intended to give RFAs Kaprizov's age more leverage in these negotiations, in the form of offer sheets and arbitration rights. The fact that Kaprizov doesn't have those rights when he normally would is a direct consequence of his past decisions: he waited longer than usual to start playing NHL games and elected to burn the first year on his ELC. Had he chosen differently he would likely have more leverage in his first contract extension. That's not the team's fault and it's not their responsibility to surrender leverage because of it.

Yeah I wholeheartedly disagree.

RFA is meant to give team control early on (up until UFA age) and to depress salary. Thats the type of leverage it gives you. It shouldn't give you the leverage that forces people to sign longterm deals way beyond their UFA age by allowing teams to hold players NHL careers hostage.

I don't really care about KK and his career so far. If anything it just shows that he never really wanted to play for the Wild if he could help it which is fine considering that he didn't choose to be drafted by them. Which just makes it even clearer that trying to force him into signing away UFA years and staying with a team/location that he really isn't happy with is wrong.

What I see is a player that wasn't happy getting drafted by the Wild, massively exceeded expectations of everyone (including the Wild) and now is willing to play for the Wild for as long as he has to according to the rules. The Wild trying to force a longterm marriage here just feels wrong and will never work out for anyone anyways.

Whether its a 1 year deal or if Guerin somehow bullies him into the rumored 5 year deal, I am pretty sure this will be the last deal KK will sign with the Wild. Considering the huge recapture penalties for the next 4 years which makes building a real contender in a flat cap world almost impossible, I just don't see the upside for the Wild in this mess. It just makes you look bad to other players (forcing players to surrender UFA years against their will is no bueno IMO) and ultimately the end result will be the same. A divorce. Probably via trade. So why drag this out needlessly?
Sign him to whatever deal you can sign him to, get him back to camp and start listening to offers. This longterm or nothing approach just makes them look bad IMO.

 

[Ban Hammered]

What leverage does Kaprizov have? To shoot himself in the foot and sit the season out? You need backbone to do it, i don't see it in Kaprizov.

Again...the reason his RFA status is what it is...is because of decisions he made.

 

[EXTRAS]

There is absolutely no way Kaprizov gets $9M per on a 3 year deal.

Barzal got 7 on 3. Can't see kaprizov getting much more.

 

[JoemAvs]

Kaprizov has options. He just wants his cake and eat it to.

He could have Theonous come back with a one year deal offer at like 3 or 4 million, and given how Cheap it is the Wild would probably agree to get him to camp. Next year he'd have arb rights and could get his wish to get to UFA as soon as possible. He wouldn't get quite as much money as the Wild are offering with the term, but that's the nature of the beast. Maybe he'd get it back at UFA, maybe he wouldn't.

But all indications we currently have is that he wants 9 + million the Wild are offering with Term, on short term.

Well the moment I read something about him turning down a 1 year contract for reasonable money (5-6m) (3m would be too ridiculous I would say because thats probably half the market value of RFA years for players like KK if even that. He could probably get more in the KHL.), I will start siding with Guerin.
But from everything I have read, short term is not on offer from the Wild. Didn't Guerin explicitly state that KK will sign for longer than Fiala? He basically ruled out a 1 year deal which IMO was not okay (because that means longterm or nothing because 2-3 year deals would be way worse than 1 year for the Wild IMO).

I have no issue with the Wild using some leverage. I just have an issue if its either you sign longterm with a place you don't want to or you don't get to play in the NHL this season.

 

[kp61c]

There is some leverage in that Minnesota needs him. This year's cap isnt too bad so it would be good to go for it. But yes there are options he cant use

Do they? They are destined to suck for a long time and the Wild fans are susceptible to the idea it's time to tank and rebuild. Kaprizov who obviously is not happy about such prospects is a luxury they can easily do without.

 

[Bazeek]

Yeah I wholeheartedly disagree.

RFA is meant to give team control early on (up until UFA age) and to depress salary. Thats the type of leverage it gives you. It shouldn't give you the leverage that forces people to sign longterm deals way beyond their UFA age by allowing teams to hold players NHL careers hostage.

I don't really care about KK and his career so far. If anything it just shows that he never really wanted to play for the Wild if he could help it which is fine considering that he didn't choose to be drafted by them. Which just makes it even clearer that trying to force him into signing away UFA years and staying with a team/location that he really isn't happy with is wrong.

Everything I see is a player that wasn't happy getting drafted by the Wild, massively exceeded expectations of everyone (including the Wild) and now is willing to play for the Wild for as long as he has to according to the rules. The Wild trying to force a longterm marriage here just feels wrong and will never work out for anyone anyways.

Whether its a 1 year deal or if Guerin somehow bullies him into the rumored 5 year deal, I am pretty sure this will be the last deal KK will sign with the Wild. Considering the huge recapture penalties for the next 4 years which makes building a real contender almost impossible, I just don't see the upside for the Wild in this mess. It just makes you look bad to other players (forcing players to surrender UFA years against their will is no bueno IMO) and ultimately the end result will be the same. A divorce. Probably via trade. So why drag this out needlessly?
Sign him to whatever deal you can sign him to, get him back to camp and start listening to offers. This longterm or nothing approach just makes them look bad IMO.

The way the RFA rules are written do give players more options as they play more games in the NHL and get closer to UFA status. Those rules are why Jesperi Kotkaniemi just signed a 1 year, $6.1m contract with Carolina instead of being "forced" and "bullied" by Montreal. You're disregarding the reasons for Kaprizov not having similar options right now, despite being an older and arguably more established player.

Kaprizov's feelings about the team, the location, the GM, the fans, and whatever else aren't actually material to the conversation, especially since none of us actually know what they are. If his priority really is to get out of St Paul as quickly as possible he absolutely has an option available to do that: offer to sign for 3 years at a low AAV.

 

[TS Quint]

Not to be pedantic, but this isn't what "good faith" means. From what's been reported Minnesota has been exceedingly straightforward about its intentions: to sign Kaprizov for as much term as they can. A max term deal isn't acceptable to the player's camp, so they've gone down as far from there as they're willing to go. There's no hidden agenda or subtext there.

Both sides are doing the same thing: using whatever leverage they have to push negotiations in the direction they want. It's not incumbent upon the team to offer shorter term deals if they don't feel it's in their interests to do so, any more than it's incumbent upon Kaprizov to sign for longer or for less money than he's willing. The only thing that's come close to "bad faith" in this whole saga is the apparent attempt by Kaprizov's agent to make it look like a KHL contract was on the cusp of being signed.

And this isn't an attempt to carry water for Guerin because I don't think the team has handled this well either. But most of the criticism I see in this thread amounts to "they're being ridiculous for not capitulating," which is a finger that points in both directions.

Just because the Wild has stated their intention to want as many years as possible doesn’t make that a good faith negotiation. Actually that is far closer to bad faith nearing the exact definition. Kaprizov is entitled to have a RFA contract offered to him and I bet that he has been offered one. Probably a crappy one but offered.

 

[AKL]

Just because the Wild has stated their intention to want as many years as possible doesn’t make that a good faith negotiation. Actually that is far closer to bad faith nearing the exact definition. Kaprizov is entitled to have a RFA contract offered to him and I bet that he has been offered one. Probably a crappy one but offered.

Stop confusing bad faith with your perceived unfairness towards Kaprizov. The Wild are not being deceptive here, they're not lying to Kaprizov about their intentions, there is no bad faith dealing from the Wild, only people who are upset that they won't just cave to his demands.

The only bad faith tactic used throughout this negotiation is when Kaprizov's side said they would sign a 10M deal in the KHL by September 1st if they didn't get what they wanted from Guerin.

 

[Bazeek]

Just because the Wild has stated their intention to want as many years as possible doesn’t make that a good faith negotiation. Actually that is far closer to bad faith nearing the exact definition. Kaprizov is entitled to have a RFA contract offered to him and I bet that he has been offered one. Probably a crappy one but offered.

Apparently it's futile to point out that words/idioms actually have established meanings, because people will just insist that their interpretation is correct regardless. So sure, the Wild is negotiating in bad faith. They're also raining cats-and-dogs on thin ice, but are about ready to hit the sack. Weeeee.

 

[TS Quint]

God you are a broken record.
The Wild had to wait 5 years after drafting him.. through two KHL contracts...for him to come over.
Then...after not playing a full schedule or a full set of teams...the Wild have offered to make him the highest paid player at his position who has as little NHL game experience as he does. They also brought him over on a two year deal and immediately burned one of those years without him ever playing a game to get him to RFA status faster. But the reason he is the group of RFA he is...is entirely on him. He's the one who didn't come over sooner which would have changed his RFA status. So the Wild have basically bent over for him at nearly every turn and done what he wanted. Now they would like a little give back from him in terms of a longer deal ( still giving him a high AAV...)
But yeah...he's the one being bent over...

I don’t understand what you think Kaprizov did wrong.

 

[TS Quint]

Stop confusing bad faith with your perceived unfairness towards Kaprizov. The Wild are not being deceptive here, they're not lying to Kaprizov about their intentions, there is no bad faith dealing from the Wild, only people who are upset that they won't just cave to his demands.

The only bad faith tactic used throughout this negotiation is when Kaprizov's side said they would sign a 10M deal in the KHL by September 1st if they didn't get what they wanted from Guerin.

[mod]

I never said Kaprizov was being treated unfairly.

I never said the Wild were being deceptive.

I never said the Wild were not dealing in good faith. I said the opposite.

You clearly don’t understand the meaning of good faith. Telling someone you are going to screw them and then doing it isn’t good faith.

 

[TS Quint]

Apparently it's futile to point out that words/idioms actually have established meanings, because people will just insist that their interpretation is correct regardless. So sure, the Wild is negotiating in bad faith. They're also raining cats-and-dogs on thin ice, but are about ready to hit the sack. Weeeee.

I have no idea who you are trying to reply to but your words don’t match my post.

 

[Nsjohnson]

[mod]

I never said Kaprizov was being treated unfairly.

I never said the Wild were being deceptive.

I never said the Wild were not dealing in good faith. I said the opposite.

You clearly don’t understand the meaning of good faith. Telling someone you are going to screw them and then doing it isn’t good faith.

I agreed but that doesn't fit the situation sir.

 

[Ban Hammered]

Again...won't someone think of poor abused Kaprizov...