Rumor: Rumors & Proposals Thread | Lavoie Vs. Pederson Vs. Sutter Vs. Gagner Vs. Caggiula

[FlameChampion]

Yeh he said it after considering Kenny’s negotiation and rejecting it. Of course he’s saying shit like that after taking another teams offer over ours.

Pretty sure if you dig into it, theres quotes from him basically saying he felt uncomfortable here from day 1 .... because the fan base wasnt nice to him because they still loved Hall.

Then theres lots of speculation that he didnt want to be here because his father died when he played in Edmonton and he wanted a fresh start.

Then to top it off, his best friend Klefbom had basically retired so another reason he didnt want to be here.

 

[TheNumber4]

Well lucky for them the calendar doesn’t go straight from November to April.

Just so I understand, what you’re saying is that Holland was trying to re-sign Larsson right up until he told them he wouldn’t re-sign and they left him unprotected in the expansion draft. But your assertion is that Larsson was willing to agree to an extension earlier in the year? I’m just curious how you would be privy to that information?

My guess as a complete moron who knows nothing is that Larsson was likely non committal towards an extension during the season and probably communicated to Holland his apprehensions about remaining in Edmonton but did not completely close the door on extending as he probably wanted to get a feel as to what his other options were going to be. I’m sure Holland probably asked for an answer before the team had to submit their expansion list so they would know where to protect him. At that point I’m guessing he either said I’m still not sure or flat out told them know so they allowed him to discuss with Seattle early in order to ensure Seattle would take him as their pick from Edmonton.

That’s how I believe it all shook out. I don’t believe for one minute that Holland had the opportunity to get Larsson to put pen to paper and didn’t get it done for whatever reason. I think the more likely story is that Lars was non committal right up until the moment Holland absolutely had to have an answer.

Yes Kenny tried to sign him up until he couldn’t. And yes Larsson considered the extension throughout the year. Even after Larsson hit the market, he still could have chose Kenny’s offer. It happens all the time. Happened recently with Kulak, Kenny negotiated with him, was somewhat convinced but not entirely, still hit the market, and circled back and signed with Kenny. Good job on Kenny for a successfully completed negotiation and getting Kulak signed. Unfortunately, he couldn’t get the job done with Larsson. That’s a fact and that’s exactly how it played out. Kenny tried, tried hard, and failed.

Or maybe he's saying shit like that because....he really wanted a fresh start. I know, crazy thought.
You're just adding your own interpretation as an excuse to criticize Holland.

He did want a fresh start. But it was something he had to contemplate on and eventually decide. Something he decided AFTER listening to Kenny’s pitch, which Larsson by all accounts considered, up until he Seattle’s GM also threw in his pitch. And from there Larsson actually made his decision, when he signed with Seattle.

 

[bobbythebrain]

Trying to and did. That’s why multiple offers were thrown Larsson’s way. Kenny even outlined his negotiation process in an interview. Both sides talked throughout the year, they talked a lot. Larssons agent eventually said they’d keep their options open, and did that just that. So Kenny had his chance, Larsson wasn’t convinced, Larsson hit the market, and another GM was able to convince him, something Kenny couldn’t do, despite trying hard to.

So just to be clear...you're either accusing Larsson of using his fathers death as a negotiating tactic to get more $. Or you're saying that Larssons father death would have been forgotten by him if Kenny threw more $ at him?
Wow, suggesting Kenny isn't a great negotiator in this instance cuz he couldn't convince Larsson to erase his dads death is ridiculous.

Kenny said in that interview that Larssons camp halted talks during the year. It doesn't take much to realize he already had a foot out the door b/c of his dad.
No amount of negotiating was gonna change that

 

[TheNumber4]

Pretty sure if you dig into it, theres quotes from him basically saying he felt uncomfortable here from day 1 .... because the fan base wasnt nice to him because they still loved Hall.

Then theres lots of speculation that he didnt want to be here because his father died when he played in Edmonton and he wanted a fresh start.

Then to top it off, his best friend Klefbom had basically retired so another reason he didnt want to be here.

Yes all of that is true. And I know all of that. And still Kenny, Larsson, and his agent worked a negotiation for half a year, negotiated right until the end, offers were even being thrown around and upped. You don’t do any of that if there’s absolutely no chance of a player signing. There was a chance. Larsson considered everything you mentioned, everything Kenny said, everything Francis said, and then he decided it was better off to go elsewhere.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

Yes all of that is true. And I know all of that. And still Kenny, Larsson, and his agent worked a negotiation for half a year, negotiated right until the end, offers were even being thrown around and upped. You don’t do any of that if there’s absolutely no chance of a player signing. There was a chance. Larsson considered everything you mentioned, everything Kenny said, everything Francis said, and then he decided it was better off to go elsewhere.

Lol geez man he didn’t want to sign here. It happens.

 

[bucks_oil]

The one criticism I have with Holland's offseason is that I think he needed to make a difficult decision to clear up more cap space. I think at least one Foegele, Kulak or Ceci should of been moved.

Time will tell, how things play out. Holland can always move pieces at the trade deadline to create more space. But I just wish he was a bit more proactive, it always feels like he does the bare minimum managing the cap to get out of todays problems and kicks the can down the road. I think some patience is required and I do think trades are very hard to make these days (we didnt see much activity in the offseason). But yeah ... I would like to see more.

I'm completely with you.

Overall I think he has been patient in constructing a competitive team despite the cap hell he inherited. There is merit to that patient approach. And he's made some mistakes but he's been generally quick to rectify those (ie Kassian, Larsson --> Ceci, Keith --> retirement).

However this year, he did the requisite minimum to put the best team on the ice that he could.

That's what he knows. That's what he's good at. He asked: what is the best team I can build this summer and he optimized to that. Old school.

However IMO, a more rational approach would have been to ask: what is the best team I can build by the deadline. The answer is "don't know till I get there, but SAVE CAP SPACE FOR IT NOW"

This team makes the playoffs with or without Foegele, Ceci or Kulak. Why not take advantage of the 'Time Value of Cap Space'? .... which is 4.5X every dollar saved in the summer.

That's my sole criticism. He didn't optimize to the modern NHL's rules, and consequently he has no room... he's now painted into the corner.

 

[TheNumber4]

So just to be clear...you're either accusing Larsson of using his fathers death as a negotiating tactic to get more $. Or you're saying that Larssons father death would have been forgotten by him if Kenny threw more $ at him?
Wow, suggesting Kenny isn't a great negotiator in this instance cuz he couldn't convince Larsson to erase his dads death is ridiculous.

Kenny said in that interview that Larssons camp halted talks during the year. It doesn't take much to realize he already had a foot out the door b/c of his dad.
No amount of negotiating was gonna change that

I’m well aware of Larssons entire situation here in Edmonton including his Dad. And your hypothetical either/or situation aren’t the only options for this. Larsson was just trying to decide what he wanted to do. It wasn’t using his dad to get more money. It wasn’t forgetting his dad existed. He was undecided what he wanted to do, he wanted to listen and see what was offered, so he could make a decision. He listened to Kenny, and I’ll admit Kenny had a hard job to do here considering all the circumstances of Larssons time here. But this doesn’t change the fact that Kenny tried to convince Larsson to stay despite all the circumstances, and Larsson chose otherwise.

 

[bucks_oil]

Yes all of that is true. And I know all of that. And still Kenny, Larsson, and his agent worked a negotiation for half a year, negotiated right until the end, offers were even being thrown around and upped. You don’t do any of that if there’s absolutely no chance of a player signing. There was a chance. Larsson considered everything you mentioned, everything Kenny said, everything Francis said, and then he decided it was better off to go elsewhere.

Valuable employees want to leave sometimes... it's a thing.

Managing =/= manipulation. Managing that situation is doing the best you can (matching/beating the offer) and then managing through the departure as best you can (signing Ceci).

Not sure how much you can criticize there.

 

[TheNumber4]

Lol geez man he didn’t want to sign here. It happens.

Yeh shit happens. Won’t be the first or last time a player we attempt to sign, doesn’t sign here. I’m over it. But Kenny still tried and still failed.

And like a said, I like Kenny, and I will admit it wasn’t an easy negotiation to complete. There were lots of valid personal reasons why Larsson wouldn’t sign here. But it wasn’t an impossibility. Kenny still tried and he still failed.

Valuable employees want to leave sometimes... it's a thing.

Managing =/= manipulation. Managing that situation is doing the best you can (matching/beating the offer) and then managing through the departure as best you can (signing Ceci).

Not sure how much you can criticize there.

Yeh it is a thing. That’s fine. Happens all the time. Won’t be the first time or last time a player the Oilers try to sign, won’t. Still doesn’t change the fact that Kenny tried and failed to sign Larsson.

I haven’t spoke about Ceci in any of these discussions. It’s a separate matter from the Larsson negotiation itself. But I agree Kenny did fine finding a replacement in Ceci, who was fine in his first year here. Still doesn’t change the fact that Kenny tried and failed to sign Larsson.

 

[CupofOil]

Yes all of that is true. And I know all of that. And still Kenny, Larsson, and his agent worked a negotiation for half a year, negotiated right until the end, offers were even being thrown around and upped. You don’t do any of that if there’s absolutely no chance of a player signing. There was a chance. Larsson considered everything you mentioned, everything Kenny said, everything Francis said, and then he decided it was better off to go elsewhere.

Yes, because he wanted a fresh start which is what has been said all along yet you're somehow seeing this as a failed negotiation by Holland. Larsson CHOSE to go elsewhere, when that was decided was irrelevant.

 

[GOilers88]

Remember in November when we weren't even in a playoff spot?

That's why talking playoff race after a month is silly as all hell.

 

[TheNumber4]

Yes, because he wanted a fresh start which is what has been said all along yet you're somehow seeing this as a failed negotiation by Holland. Larsson CHOSE to go elsewhere, when that was decided was irrelevant.

He chose to go somewhere after Kenny failed at convincing him to stay. And yes he said he wanted a fresh start after the fact, both can be true.

 

[GOilers88]

Trying to and did. That’s why multiple offers were thrown Larsson’s way. Kenny even outlined his negotiation process in an interview. Both sides talked throughout the year, they talked a lot. Larssons agent eventually said they’d keep their options open, and did that just that. So Kenny had his chance, Larsson wasn’t convinced, Larsson hit the market, and another GM was able to convince him, something Kenny couldn’t do, despite trying hard to.

I'm really puzzled as to what you think Holland could have done differently to get the job done and not pooch negotiations. He offered MORE money on the same term, to stay with a team that has continued to improve and has 2 of the best players on it.

What exactly do you think Francis did that so wooed Larsson that Holland was unable to do, besides the fact that Larsson wasn't very happy in Edmonton because of his father? Like, I'm thoroughly confused here as to how you think Holland somehow failed in his job here.

Offering a guy a better contract, with a very real possibility of being on a contending team, and having that guy choose to go somewhere else for personal reasons unrelated to the contracts, is not a failure on the part of the GM. It's a player choosing to go somewhere else out of personal preference. This is the most unreasonable, illogical criticism of a GM failing I think I've ever seen.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

RELEASE: Oilers sign Adam Erne to PTO | Edmonton Oilers

Forward has spent the past four seasons with the Detroit Red Wings, scoring 27 goals and 35 assists in 241 games

www.nhl.com

Surprise here, but might be something.

 

[TheNumber4]

I'm really puzzled as to what you think Holland could have done differently to get the job done and not pooch negotiations. He offered MORE money on the same term, to stay with a team that has continued to improve and has 2 of the best players on it.

What exactly do you think Francis did that so wooed Larsson that Holland was unable to do, besides the fact that Larsson wasn't very happy in Edmonton because of his father? Like, I'm thoroughly confused here as to how you think Holland somehow failed in his job here.

Offering a guy a better contract, with a very real possibility of being on a contending team, and having that guy choose to go somewhere else for personal reasons unrelated to the contracts, is not a failure on the part of the GM. It's a player choosing to go somewhere else out of personal preference. This is the most unreasonable, illogical criticism of a GM failing I think I've ever seen.

Kenny may have done all Kenny was capable of. Maybe all he offered was money and term. And a couple repeated talking points if his pressers is anything to go by. There’s more to negotiations than just money and term though. You could sell the dream. Sell stability. Sell existing friendships and relationships. Or even up the offer again which only seemed to happen once. I don’t know exactly what Kenny did in this negoation outside of what’s reported publicly. No one knows. But I do know that Kenny THOUGHT it was a possibility he’d resign, acted accordingly, then failed to get the job done.

How much blame you want to put on Kenny for that failed negotiation is up to you. I don’t even put much blame on him actually, as I’ve stated it was tough negotiation to go into, lots of circumstances that would make Larsson a difficult resign for any GM. But not impossible. And still the fact remains Kenny didn’t get the job done.

 

[oobga]

That's until there are reasons I won't mention that will make him ineligible to play for a while in short order.

There are only two possible reasons that he could only get a PTO from a team this late in the year:

1) His agent is dumb and had his value way off creating this outcome

2) The reasons I won't mention

Good point, forgot about that.

 

[GOilers88]

Kenny may have done all Kenny was capable of. Maybe all he offered was money and term. And a couple repeated talking points if his pressers is anything to go by. There’s more to negotiations than just money and term though. You could sell the dream. Sell stability. Sell existing friendships and relationships. Or even up the offer again which only seemed to happen once. I don’t know exactly what Kenny did in this negoation outside of what’s reported publicly. No one knows. But I do know that Kenny THOUGHT it was a possibility he’d resign, acted accordingly, then failed to get the job done.

How much blame you want to put on Kenny for that failed negotiation is up to you. I don’t even put much blame on him actually, as I’ve stated it was tough negotiation to go into, lots of circumstances that would make Larsson a difficult resign for any GM. But not impossible. And still the fact remains Kenny didn’t get the job done.

And if the loss of his father in the city trumps "the dream" or past friendships, is that still failing to get the job done? I just can't fathom how a guy CHOOSING to sign somewhere else is a fail on the part of the GM. Short of handcuffing him to a chair, forcing him to sign a contract, or forging his signature, there's no way you can say he could have done more. It's completely illogical.

 

[TheNumber4]

And if the loss of his father in the city trumps "the dream" or past friendships, is that still failing to get the job done? I just can't fathom how a guy CHOOSING to sign somewhere else is a fail on the part of the GM. Short of handcuffing him to a chair, forcing him to sign a contract, or forging his signature, there's no way you can say he could have done more. It's completely illogical.

Yes. He’d still have failed at signing Larsson cause he attempted to and failed. This is the fact of the matter whether Larssons father passing happened or not, or Klefbom going down or whatever. But again, whatever amount of blame you want to put on Kenny is up to you. Excuse it entirely and absolve Kenny of all blame if you want.

To me I don’t place much blame on Kenny cause Larsson was a tough negotiation to complete. But I still chock it up as a loss and a fail on Kenny’s part, cause it is. And I treat it as just one example of one failed negotiation that gets added to other successes and failures he’s had to form my opinion on Kenny’s overall job performance. Larsson negotiation in a vacuum isn’t much to judge Kenny on, but it is something that happened that needs to go on the ledger. Listening to Kenny talk and seeing other failed negotiations it can all add up and paint a picture of a bad negotiator. Of which I think the evidence for is piling up.

 

[joestevens29]

That's until there are reasons I won't mention that will make him ineligible to play for a while in short order.

There are only two possible reasons that he could only get a PTO from a team this late in the year:

1) His agent is dumb and had his value way off creating this outcome

2) The reasons I won't mention

Sounds like he has some work ethic issues too, but is that because 200 games of Eakins finally got to the guy or is he just another guy that hasn't realized the NHL is junior?

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Sounds like he has some work ethic issues too, but is that because 200 games of Eakins finally got to the guy or is he just another guy that hasn't realized the NHL is junior?

If we're talking Comtrois, I'll always assume Eakins

 

[Ritchie Valens]

Yes. He’d still have failed at signing Larsson cause he attempted to and failed. This is the fact of the matter whether Larssons father passing happened or not, or Klefbom going down or whatever. But again, whatever amount of blame you want to put on Kenny is up to you. Excuse it entirely and absolve Kenny of all blame if you want.

To me I don’t place much blame on Kenny cause Larsson was a tough negotiation to complete. But I still chock it up as a loss and a fail on Kenny’s part, cause it is. And I treat it as just one example of one failed negotiation that gets added to other successes and failures he’s had to form my opinion on Kenny’s overall job performance. Larsson negotiation in a vacuum isn’t much to judge Kenny on, but it is something that happened that needs to go on the ledger. Listening to Kenny talk and seeing other failed negotiations it can all add up and paint a picture of a bad negotiator. Of which I think the evidence for is piling up.

He gave Larsson two offers. One was a five year deal in the high 3's and the other was the identical deal the Kraken gave him. I'm just baffled how one iota of blame can be placed on Holland when Larsson decided he needed a fresh start away from the Oilers. It's like a guy proposing a long term commitment to a girl but she decides she doesn't want to be in that relationship any longer and wants to move on in another city. Then the guy is blamed for her refusing the proposal because her heart and mind are elsewhere.

Ken has done some good things and not so good things. Losing Larsson because his heart and mind were not committed to the city of Edmonton and the Oilers is something Kenny can't be blamed for. Here's some quotes from Larsson.

Kraken's Larsson ready for fresh start after losing father in Edmonton

Now a member of the Kraken, former Oilers defenceman Adam Larsson opened up about the sudden loss of his father over three years ago and the need to seek out a new beginning in Seattle.

www.sportsnet.ca

Right from Larsson's mouth:

“I loved my time there. The guys, I made some lifelong friends there,” he said. “Even the negotiations… What Kenny (GM Holland) offered, it was really good. This was not about (money). It was about family.

“I just wanted to make the right decision. It had nothing to do with money."

What if close friend Oscar Klefbom, whose shoulder injury has jeopardized his career, had still been an active player in Edmonton? Would that have made the decision to leave more difficult?

“It’s tough to say,” Larsson allowed. “We all missed Klef when he was gone — he was such a big factor on the ice. And a great friend to me, coming into the team.

“But that thing still happened. It would have been tough (to return). The same memories would apply.”

If you want to blame Ken for something, then where he failed was letting him walk for nothing. This wasn't an 11th hour walkout, like Gaudreau did to Calgary. I'm sure Larsson let him know in advance he wasn't coming back so he could have gotten something for him, even if it was a lower pick for his rights. But the caveat was Seattle had a negotiating window and any UFA they plucked was considered their expansion pick, so instead of losing two players to them, it was one.

 

[TheNumber4]

He gave Larsson two offers. One was a five year deal in the high 3's and the other was the identical deal the Kraken gave him. I'm just baffled how one iota of blame can be placed on Holland when Larsson decided he needed a fresh start away from the Oilers. It's like a guy proposing a long term commitment to a girl but she decides she doesn't want to be in that relationship any longer and wants to move on in another city. Then the guy is blamed for her refusing the proposal because her heart and mind are elsewhere.

Ken has done some good things and not so good things. Losing Larsson because his heart and mind were not committed to the city of Edmonton and the Oilers is something Kenny can't be blamed for. Here's some quotes from Larsson.

Kraken's Larsson ready for fresh start after losing father in Edmonton

Now a member of the Kraken, former Oilers defenceman Adam Larsson opened up about the sudden loss of his father over three years ago and the need to seek out a new beginning in Seattle.

www.sportsnet.ca

Right from Larsson's mouth:

“I loved my time there. The guys, I made some lifelong friends there,” he said. “Even the negotiations… What Kenny (GM Holland) offered, it was really good. This was not about (money). It was about family.

“I just wanted to make the right decision. It had nothing to do with money."

What if close friend Oscar Klefbom, whose shoulder injury has jeopardized his career, had still been an active player in Edmonton? Would that have made the decision to leave more difficult?

“It’s tough to say,” Larsson allowed. “We all missed Klef when he was gone — he was such a big factor on the ice. And a great friend to me, coming into the team.

“But that thing still happened. It would have been tough (to return). The same memories would apply.”

If you want to blame Ken for something, then where he failed was letting him walk for nothing. This wasn't an 11th hour walkout, like Gaudreau did to Calgary. I'm sure Larsson let him know in advance he wasn't coming back so he could have gotten something for him, even if it was a lower pick for his rights. But the caveat was Seattle had a negotiating window and any UFA they plucked was considered their expansion pick, so instead of losing two players to them, it was one.

Yeh he gave offers AND he gave Larsson a pitch to consider and stay. Everything you've quoted I already know. Yes there was plenty of valid reasons why Larsson wouldn't want to come back. That being said, he still held open the possibility. Which is why Kenny sent him offers, made pitches, did what GM's are supposed to do. And he failed.

The amount of blame you want to put on him, decide for yourself. But he did fail at his attempt to resign Larsson. On the flip side of that, I and everyone else gave credit for negotiating with Kulak and COMPLETING the signing. A good signing at that, and everyone was happy with the job Kenny did to extend him. Did any of us sit around and say Kenny doesn't deserve credit for that cause Kulak is a local kid and was going to sign anyways? We very easily could have went down that route, but we didn't, cause at the end of the day Kenny got the job done and should be commended for it. So in the same situation, except Kenny cant get the job done, we excuse him cause of "reasons" but can't do the same in the vise versa situation? Makes no sense.

 

[Anarchism]

ADAM 'plant your ass in front of the net and don't leave until we tell you' ERNE.
Potential garbage man, had decent hands in junior, can clean slot.
Nick Ritchie but only half the grit. Will come for minimun whereas Ritchie wants more.
Role player. Can share LW for Mcleod with Nogoals. Utility guy.
Tweener that likely never reaches his potential but has some value.

 

[TheNumber4]

Adam Erne - Former Red Wing
Sam Gagner - Former Oiler
Drake Caggiula - Former Oiler
Brandon Sutter - Former Good Ol Western Canadian Kid
Lane Pederson - Former Good Ol Western Canadian Kid
Colton Sceviour - Former Good Ol Western Canadian Kid
Jake Virtanen - Former Good Ol Western Canadian Kid

Do the Oilers have a Type? Seems like most PTOs we try somone in the braintrust has direct familiarity with or we seen them good as a WHL prospect. Or maybe the Oilers scouting staff are just lazy and underfunded?

Brad Holland, Jeff Jackson, and Rick Pracey need to hire more scouts. And preferably they'd look elsewhere besides Western Canada all the time.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Adam Erne - Former Red Wing
Sam Gagner - Former Oiler
Drake Caggiula - Former Oiler
Brandon Sutter - Former Good Ol Western Canadian Kid
Lane Pederson - Former Good Ol Western Canadian Kid
Colton Sceviour - Former Good Ol Western Canadian Kid
Jake Virtanen - Former Good Ol Western Canadian Kid

Do the Oilers have a Type? Seems like most PTOs we try somone in the braintrust has direct familiarity with or we seen them good as a WHL prospect. Or maybe the Oilers scouting staff are just lazy and underfunded?

Brad Holland, Jeff Jackson, and Rick Pracey need to hire more scouts. And preferably they'd look elsewhere besides Western Canada all the time.

You also cant force players to sign a PTO with you.

It's no surprise that people who are used to the area are willing to sign a PTO here.