Roster thread: Get To Work (2022-2023 Season)

[SundherDome]

I think it is important to expand on this, because while it brings up a lot of important issues on developing well rounded defensively strong players and the difficulty in that, it is important to distinguish that there are different aspects of defense that can and can't easily be addressed.

Sakic was a center, which is the toughest position to play as they have to constantly make reads and their location on the ice is critical to avoiding odd-man chances.

Reading the plays, tracking opposition forwards and maintaining disciplined positioning while contributing offensively is a lot to juggle and requires an elite awareness.

But all players do not have to have that aptitude for a team to be successful defensively.

Another type of D is defensive zone positioning which goes hand-in-hand with penalty killing.

A lot of great penalty killers are somewhat deficient at defensive reads in the offensive and neutral zones. Good skaters with active sticks can be pretty outstanding penalty killers and a great asset in the D zone when playing with similarly proficient defensive players that are all in sync with the same strategy and are coached to focus on spacing and always layering their D to take away lanes. This is the D we are talking about here. This team could be proficient with the current roster in it's own end with a simple D-zone philosophy that could be installed and working in a couple of weeks, and takes nothing away from Granato's philosophy of encouraging the players to read and adapt in the other areas of the ice.

It wouldn't solve the break-away problem, (that is a smaller discipline issue that could be addressed separately), but it would likely curtail the 10-15 high danger chances they give up per night from the "Keystone Cops" routine they often perform in their own zone like the one below. (Note: Comrie and the Sabre's goal is just off screen to the left)

View attachment 666773

Didn't realize this game was in Sunday because Quinn is out there on a prayer

 

[joshjull]

I think it is important to expand on this, because while it brings up a lot of important issues on developing well rounded defensively strong players and the difficulty in that, it is important to distinguish that there are different aspects of defense that can and can't easily be addressed.

Sakic was a center, which is the toughest position to play as they have to constantly make reads and their location on the ice is critical to avoiding odd-man chances.

Reading the plays, tracking opposition forwards and maintaining disciplined positioning while contributing offensively is a lot to juggle and requires an elite awareness.

But all players do not have to have that aptitude for a team to be successful defensively.

Obviously it’s harder for a center. But @littletonhockeycoach point still stands. Young/inexperienced skill players take time to grow an effective defensive game at the NHL level. I mean young players take time to adapt to the NHL period, not just defensively.

The problem is some on here expecting a level of consistency and discipline from our young/inexperienced players thats unrealistic based on the history of such players.

Another type of D is defensive zone positioning which goes hand-in-hand with penalty killing.

A lot of great penalty killers are somewhat deficient at defensive reads in the offensive and neutral zones. Good skaters with active sticks can be pretty outstanding penalty killers and a great asset in the D zone when playing with similarly proficient defensive players that are all in sync with the same strategy and are coached to focus on spacing and always layering their D to take away lanes. This is the D we are talking about here. This team could be proficient with the current roster in it's own end with a simple D-zone philosophy that could be installed and working in a couple of weeks, and takes nothing away from Granato's philosophy of encouraging the players to read and adapt in the other areas of the ice.
It wouldn't solve the break-away problem, (that is a smaller discipline issue that could be addressed separately), but it would likely curtail the 10-15 high danger chances they give up per night from the "Keystone Cops" routine they often perform in their own zone.

The bolded is not a realistic solution nor a simple tweak.

1) How you play in your end is intrinsically linked to how you play overall systemically. If you’re asking them to play a layered defense and protect the house (HD areas). Then they’re no longer going to be in position for the aggressive transition game we play when they get the puck. You’re not making a tweak. You're changing how they play.

2) As @Chainshot has pointed out, they've hardly practiced for quite some time. So they would have almost no practice time to implement your suggested change of direction.

So you have a young/inexperienced team thats getting sloppier and sloppier within their current system. In part due to lack of practice time to reinforce things. Now being asked by you to change direction also with little practice time. What could go wrong?

Its fine if you want to change their overall approach. But don‘t frame it as an easy tweak.

There is no magic bullet solution to their defensive woes. It’s going to be hard to work through during the rest of the season. But it’s going to take bearing down into the system. Something thats hard for youngsters to do consistently.

 

[Matt Ress]

Obviously it’s harder for a center. But @littletonhockeycoach point still stands. Young/inexperienced skill players take time to grow an effective defensive game at the NHL level. I mean young players take time to adapt to the NHL period, not just defensively.

The problem is some on here expecting a level of consistency and discipline from our young/inexperienced players thats unrealistic based on the history of such players.


The bolded is not a realistic solution nor a simple tweak.

1) How you play in your end is intrinsically linked to how you play overall systemically. If you’re asking them to play a layered defense and protect the house (HD areas). Then they’re no longer going to be in position for the aggressive transition game we play when they get the puck. You’re not making a tweak. You're changing how they play.

2) As @Chainshot has pointed out, they've hardly practiced for quite some time. So they would have almost no practice time to implement your suggested change of direction.

So you have a young/inexperienced team thats getting sloppier and sloppier within their current system. In part due to lack of practice time to reinforce things. Now being asked by you to change direction also with little practice time. What could go wrong?

Its fine if you want to change their overall approach. But don‘t frame it as an easy tweak.

There is no magic bullet solution to their defensive woes. It’s going to be hard to work through during the rest of the season. But it’s going to take bearing down into the system. Something thats hard for youngsters to do consistently.

Yeah I don't see them implementing any systematic changes until the fall.

 

[My Cozen Dylan]

Caps re-signed TVR 3x3. Was hoping he'd be a guy we'd go after in UFA.

 

[Chainshot]

Caps re-signed TVR 3x3. Was hoping he'd be a guy we'd go after in UFA.

If that's him giving the Caps a break by signing early, I don't know if Buffalo will be swimming in the summer UFA waters.

 

[DJN21]

There is a difference between unlocking what a player can do and molding that into an effective NHLer. Take for example your favorite trade chip - Peyton Krebs. Krebs game initially was trying to sling pucks through everyone and everything regardless of location on the ice in an effort to set up someone else to finish a play. They very much have molded his other abilities into something very much more a 2-way player who is no longer prone to making backbreaking turnovers leading to immediate high danger chances against. Cozens had shown aptitude in terms of his commitment to play at both ends of the ice. Thompson was once recognized for his defensive abilities with his stick. What's missing right now is making sure they aren't ONLY focused on the one-way side of the game. It's there, they have to mold it in the way they've molded Krebs.

I'm not gonna go so far as disagree with you on Krebs because I don't actually know what Donny did or said to him and if he deserves the credit or not. It's just as safe to say that working with Girgs and Okposo coupled with being "this" close to the guy potentially sent down to Rochester motivated him more than anything Granato did...idk...

 

[Chainshot]

I'm not gonna go so far as disagree with you on Krebs because I don't actually know what Donny did or said to him and if he deserves the credit or not. It's just as safe to say that working with Girgs and Okposo coupled with being "this" close to the guy potentially sent down to Rochester motivated him more than anything Granato did...idk...

Losing the forest for the trees: there are ways they can get Cozens and Thompson to be better defensively in a way that isn't going to kill their scoring. They did it with Krebs, they can do it with Cozens (who has done it before) and with Thompson.

 

[Ace]

Cozens has spent most of the year playing with rookie wingers…his defense was taking a hit no matter what he did. At any given time he could be out there with two rookies and a Bryson with UPL behind them. Good luck to Bergeron in those circumstances.

 

[Chainshot]

Cozens has spent most of the year playing with rookie wingers…his defense was taking a hit no matter what he did. At any given time he could be out there with two rookies and a Bryson with UPL behind them. Good luck to Bergeron in those circumstances.

It's not a matter of the players so much as it is how the individual plays. Peterka and Quinn didn't have anything to do with Cozens leaving Fasching unattended to try to get up ice fast in the Islander game as an example.

 

[DJN21]

Losing the forest for the trees: there are ways they can get Cozens and Thompson to be better defensively in a way that isn't going to kill their scoring. They did it with Krebs, they can do it with Cozens (who has done it before) and with Thompson.

Again I'm not discounting that at all. But seeing many factors going into a player's progression is not out of the question despite how many forest for the trees, straw man arguments, or oars for the row boat cliches we decide to throw out there.

The sheer logistics of it say Donny won't turn all his centers into defensive masterminds and maybe won't even make them defensively a net positive (looking at Tage not Cozens or Krebs).

Krebs has been a plesant surprise in that he very well could carve out a Cirelli-esque career arch at this point. Cozens very well could become Mike Richards minus the drugs....who knows. But there are so many outside factors that go into this I find it hard to give sole credit to head coaching is all I'm trying to say.

 

[Chainshot]

Again I'm not discounting that at all. But seeing many factors going into a player's progression is not out of the question despite how many forest for the trees, straw man arguments, or oars for the row boat cliches we decide to throw out there.

The sheer logistics of it say Donny won't turn all his centers into defensive masterminds and maybe won't even make them defensively a net positive (looking at Tage not Cozens or Krebs).

Krebs has been a plesant surprise in that he very well could carve out a Cirelli-esque career arch at this point. Cozens very well could become Mike Richards minus the drugs....who knows. But there are so many outside factors that go into this I find it hard to give sole credit to head coaching is all I'm trying to say.

If you have something against how or what I post, feel free to put me on ignore. This is the second time you've gone to a shot about a colloquial expression.

Not asking for a defensive mastermind, asking for a player to not leave his check before the team has possession isn't inventing Guy Charbonneau. It's hockey basics.

 

[DJN21]

Obviously it’s harder for a center. But @littletonhockeycoach point still stands. Young/inexperienced skill players take time to grow an effective defensive game at the NHL level. I mean young players take time to adapt to the NHL period, not just defensively.

The problem is some on here expecting a level of consistency and discipline from our young/inexperienced players thats unrealistic based on the history of such players.


The bolded is not a realistic solution nor a simple tweak.

1) How you play in your end is intrinsically linked to how you play overall systemically. If you’re asking them to play a layered defense and protect the house (HD areas). Then they’re no longer going to be in position for the aggressive transition game we play when they get the puck. You’re not making a tweak. You're changing how they play.

2) As @Chainshot has pointed out, they've hardly practiced for quite some time. So they would have almost no practice time to implement your suggested change of direction.

So you have a young/inexperienced team thats getting sloppier and sloppier within their current system. In part due to lack of practice time to reinforce things. Now being asked by you to change direction also with little practice time. What could go wrong?

Its fine if you want to change their overall approach. But don‘t frame it as an easy tweak.

There is no magic bullet solution to their defensive woes. It’s going to be hard to work through during the rest of the season. But it’s going to take bearing down into the system. Something thats hard for youngsters to do consistently.

spot on.

 

[Irie]

The problem is some on here expecting a level of consistency and discipline from our young/inexperienced players thats unrealistic based on the history of such players.

Sure, there is a ton for young players to learn defensively, board battles, sealing the wall, leverage, skate and stick tricks, and all of that takes time and improves with experience, but all of these players have been playing organized hockey for most of their lives, they can skate and they have had exposure to spacing and gapping at multiple levels already. Spacing is a pretty easy concept for many players as young as Bantams. It is the rotational shifts and adjustment reads that take time, but I have watched Junior teams learn and effectively execute disciplined spacing based D zone coverage and PKs, there is no player on the current Sabres team that doesn't have the mental capacity to quickly pick up the limited structure it requires.

What is really difficult for young players is reading situations and reacting to opposition movements while anticipating teammates actions, which is what is currently being employed.

The bolded is not a realistic solution nor a simple tweak.

I disagree. For an example. Hakstol in Seattle was a college coach (S Dakota), and i watched him run a similar overly aggressive D-zone and PK scheme with the Kraken for almost a year and a half. The team was undisciplined and relied on attacking pressure points to disrupt and create turnovers(like Buffalo). They would end up running in circles (like Buffalo) and gave up some of the highest HDC in the league. Their PK ran between 68-70% in year one, and was 67-69% through December of this Season.

On Dec. 15, it was announced that Dave Lowry (who was added last summer to the staff) would be taking over the D zone and PK coaching. He installed a disciplined, much less aggressive, spacing based system, and since Jan 1st, the Kraken's PK is running almost at 85%.

In Two Weeks, the system was overhauled and the results are substantial.

They still fall into all habits from time to time and break formation and end up puck chasing when someone misreads their linemates and no one covers, but it doesn't happen that often, and I anticipate that will continue to improve.

1) How you play in your end is intrinsically linked to how you play overall systemically. If you’re asking them to play a layered defense and protect the house (HD areas). Then they’re no longer going to be in position for the aggressive transition game we play when they get the puck. You’re not making a tweak. You're changing how they play.

The transition game is influenced much more by their neutral and offensive zone pressure. I am talking about changes to when the opposition is set up in the Sabres zone here. Nothing should fundamentally change if they stop chasing the puck and have more D zone structure, working as a team defensively. We aren't changing the forecheck or the current aggressive neutral zone attack plan. They have been the bright spot of the team D.

In the defensive zone, currently the most common results when they finally take possession is just a clear and hope it isn't icing. With better layering, they are much more likely to intercept crossing feeds and be in a position to make a controlled pass to spring a player for a rush than the desperation clearing attempt that is the current MO.

The current system is also developing sloppy defensive habits within the young kids, which will require breaking them of at some point down the road.

2) As @Chainshot has pointed out, they've hardly practiced for quite some time. So they would have almost no practice time to implement your suggested change of direction.

So you have a young/inexperienced team thats getting sloppier and sloppier within their current system. In part due to lack of practice time to reinforce things. Now being asked by you to change direction also with little practice time. What could go wrong?

Its fine if you want to change their overall approach. But don‘t frame it as an easy tweak.

While it can't be fixed in a day, it won't take years or even months.

I don't think we can sight lack of practice time as an excuse not to address the teams biggest failure. They have had all season and they have the rest of this season and training camp next year. If this team does not fix this issue, and they are PKing at 70% again next year, they likely miss the playoffs again. (This is not a personnel issue/ The Kraken had Gourde, Tanev, Wennberg, Jarnkrok, Appleton, Bastian, etc. when they were ineffective, and now have Geekie, Beniers and McCann effectively PKing. The system gives lesser skilled defensive players a job they can fallback on and do, instead of being lost half the time)

The defensive coverage in their own end is the reason this team is on the outside looking in again. If they had hall of fame goaltending, things might be different, but this board is blaming goaltending for this teams woes, and there is not a goalie available that is going to make a difference without a change to the team defense.

There is no magic bullet solution to their defensive woes. It’s going to be hard to work through during the rest of the season. But it’s going to take bearing down into the system. Something thats hard for youngsters to do consistently.

I feel strongly that it is the system that is currently failing the young players, and not the young players failing at the system.

Anyone that watches this team can not argue that defensively they look lost most of the time in their own zone. The young guys need more structure right now. They are drowing out there and having a system they can lean on is a great way to teach them discipline and letting them know where to be on the ice while easing their burden of reading the plays and limiting the processing and reacting they have to do.

 

[TehDoak]

Losing the forest for the trees: there are ways they can get Cozens and Thompson to be better defensively in a way that isn't going to kill their scoring. They did it with Krebs, they can do it with Cozens (who has done it before) and with Thompson.

Nearly every forward we have can learn to be better in their own zone. Olofsson is really the only guy who I think might be a lost cause a bit. But I think, collectively, we are in agreement there.

I mean

Skinner-Thompson-Tuch
Mittelstadt-Cozens-Quinn
Greenway-Krebs-Peterka

Seems like you have the makings of 3 lines that can at least be competent in their own zone. Though I wonder if we could bump greenway to the 4th line and find a good two way rw via UFA.

Either way, I think Olofssons time SHOULD be done this summer

 

[Sabresbyswords104]

Only 17 games left , if the sabres dont winn all 4 next Week I Will consider them out of the playoffs and would rather be good to get 11 spot to be able do winn first round pick

They should trade Olofsson latest next deadline hopefully this summer . Not helping the sabres any

 

[Sabre the Win]

Either way, I think Olofssons time SHOULD be done this summer

It should be but do any of us actually think they will buy his last season out? Who trades for him? Guy is bench proof so obviously Granato sees a guy who scored 20 goals and puts the blinders up for everything else, Adams probably does the same thing.

We are screwed with this guy at least until deadline next year or even worse; beyond.

If he is gone next year I will be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Chainshot]

Nearly every forward we have can learn to be better in their own zone. Olofsson is really the only guy who I think might be a lost cause a bit. But I think, collectively, we are in agreement there.

I mean

Skinner-Thompson-Tuch
Mittelstadt-Cozens-Quinn
Greenway-Krebs-Peterka

Seems like you have the makings of 3 lines that can at least be competent in their own zone. Though I wonder if we could bump greenway to the 4th line and find a good two way rw via UFA.

Either way, I think Olofssons time SHOULD be done this summer

We'll have to see, I'm not sure how they are approaching the summer other. Do they think one of Kulich or Savoie can make the jump? Can they survive that with what they have? Is Greenway the defensive cover for one of the top 6 lines? There doesn't seem to be hints right now but Tuch back at practice might indicate what they have in mind.

It should be but do any of us actually think they will buy his last season out? Who trades for him? Guy is bench proof so obviously Granato sees a guy who scored 20 goals and puts the blinders up for everything else, Adams probably does the same thing.

We are screwed with this guy at least until deadline next year or even worse; beyond.

If he is gone next year I will be pleasantly surprised.

There are several bottom feeders out west who seem like good candidates for 2nd line and 1st PP needs while they are rebuilding. San Jose and Anaheim specifically, though I could see Arizona as a possibility because they are basically roster chaos.

 

[Chainshot]

With Samuelsson week-to-week and Dahlin day-to-day, I suppose that means the Amerks take the hit. They wouldn't be foolish enough to try to get some of these guys to play 4-in-4 would they? Last time I remember someone doing that was Thompson when Maatta hit him and he popped his shoulder.

 

[Ace]

With Samuelsson week-to-week and Dahlin day-to-day, I suppose that means the Amerks take the hit. They wouldn't be foolish enough to try to get some of these guys to play 4-in-4 would they? Last time I remember someone doing that was Thompson when Maatta hit him and he popped his shoulder.

Pilut, Bryson, Clague, Joker top 4

LET’S GO BABY

 

[nickdawg95]

It should be but do any of us actually think they will buy his last season out? Who trades for him? Guy is bench proof so obviously Granato sees a guy who scored 20 goals and puts the blinders up for everything else, Adams probably does the same thing.

We are screwed with this guy at least until deadline next year or even worse; beyond.

If he is gone next year I will be pleasantly surprised

they ain't going to buy him out,He's a very useful player but our team needs something else.

3rd line minutes. PP1 time

NYI
Vegas
Seattle

Could use his shot on the PP and have the players to mask his defensive deficiencies

 

[joshjull]

 

[CaliSabresfan24]

We're winning out now boys!

 

[Chainshot]

Pilut, Bryson, Clague, Joker top 4

LET’S GO BABY

Power-Jokiharju
Stillman-Lyubushkin
Bryson-Clague

Spare?

 

[CaliSabresfan24]

We're winning out now boys!

Shit nvm...



I am assuming it was the puck to the face Sammy took

 

[joshjull]