Roster thread: Get To Work (2022-2023 Season)

[Zman5778]

The entire team is lacking in fundamental play in their own zone. It's clearly an issue of the coach not feeling that is important which is why I keep becoming less supportive of the coach with each passing day. The longer bad habits are tolerated the harder it is to break them and there is nothing in all of hockey less valuable than one way players. Having an entire roster of one way players completely lost in their own end is a surefire way to lose lots of games.

I keep telling myself that Donnie is letting them try to figure out defensive play on their own this year before hammering it into their skulls in the offseason. He's maintained that it's easier to teach kids defensive responsibility than it is offensive freedom. So I'm just hoping this is all part of a master plan that he has.

 

[Chainshot]

The entire team is lacking in fundamental play in their own zone. It's clearly an issue of the coach not feeling that is important which is why I keep becoming less supportive of the coach with each passing day. The longer bad habits are tolerated the harder it is to break them and there is nothing in all of hockey less valuable than one way players. Having an entire roster of one way players completely lost in their own end is a surefire way to lose lots of games.

I would say the idea that they are hurt by the complete lack of practice time is big right now. No one is being schooled on anything outside of video and that isn't going to shift some of these things. All old natural tendencies bubble up and we see plenty of players reaching. At this point, I'm hoping they get out of this last little stretch without any injuries that push into next season because their margins are so narrow.

 

[TehDoak]

The entire team is lacking in fundamental play in their own zone. It's clearly an issue of the coach not feeling that is important which is why I keep becoming less supportive of the coach with each passing day. The longer bad habits are tolerated the harder it is to break them and there is nothing in all of hockey less valuable than one way players. Having an entire roster of one way players completely lost in their own end is a surefire way to lose lots of games.

I keep telling myself that Donnie is letting them try to figure out defensive play on their own this year before hammering it into their skulls in the offseason. He's maintained that it's easier to teach kids defensive responsibility than it is offensive freedom. So I'm just hoping this is all part of a master plan that he has.

I would say the idea that they are hurt by the complete lack of practice time is big right now. No one is being schooled on anything outside of video and that isn't going to shift some of these things. All old natural tendencies bubble up and we see plenty of players reaching. At this point, I'm hoping they get out of this last little stretch without any injuries that push into next season because their margins are so narrow.

I'm not a hockey strategist, I have never played the game.

However, going back to when Granato took over, one of the first things he did was, essentially, remove the defensive shackles from the team. The games had no consequence to them. So the players were allowed to just play and learn to score goals and be creative at the NHL level. I pointed out that offensive growth in games with zero consequence in a system, essentially, free of defensive responsibility, could be difficult to gauge against players in a defensive system.

It was effective and unleashed Thompson, Dahlin, brought Skinner back, developed Cozens.

The question is, HOW do we put the genie back in the bottle, especially when we have two seasons of bad habits to, essentially, undo. And how much will that gimp our offense? Do we need to bring in a bad cop coach who essentially will be the asshole and bench guys for missing their assignments if Don won't. It's a real problem that has to be addressed.

 

[Zman5778]

IThe question is, HOW do we put the genie back in the bottle, especially when we have two seasons of bad habits to, essentially, undo. And how much will that gimp our offense? Do we need to bring in a bad cop coach who essentially will be the asshole and bench guys for missing their assignments if Don won't. It's a real problem that has to be addressed.

I think Donnie's approach is going to be this: "So guys.....doing this whole "f*** defense" thing works sometimes but not all the time. Do you guys actually want to make the playoffs?"

And then he's going to count on the guys' competitive nature and intelligence to want to learn how to play defense so as to win more consistently.

 

[Chainshot]

I'm not a hockey strategist, I have never played the game.

However, going back to when Granato took over, one of the first things he did was, essentially, remove the defensive shackles from the team. The games had no consequence to them. So the players were allowed to just play and learn to score goals and be creative at the NHL level. I pointed out that offensive growth in games with zero consequence in a system, essentially, free of defensive responsibility, could be difficult to gauge against players in a defensive system.

It was effective and unleashed Thompson, Dahlin, brought Skinner back, developed Cozens.

The question is, HOW do we put the genie back in the bottle, especially when we have two seasons of bad habits to, essentially, undo. And how much will that gimp our offense? Do we need to bring in a bad cop coach who essentially will be the asshole and bench guys for missing their assignments if Don won't. It's a real problem that has to be addressed.

There is a difference between unlocking what a player can do and molding that into an effective NHLer. Take for example your favorite trade chip - Peyton Krebs. Krebs game initially was trying to sling pucks through everyone and everything regardless of location on the ice in an effort to set up someone else to finish a play. They very much have molded his other abilities into something very much more a 2-way player who is no longer prone to making backbreaking turnovers leading to immediate high danger chances against. Cozens had shown aptitude in terms of his commitment to play at both ends of the ice. Thompson was once recognized for his defensive abilities with his stick. What's missing right now is making sure they aren't ONLY focused on the one-way side of the game. It's there, they have to mold it in the way they've molded Krebs.

 

[Tatanka]

They can’t fix the goalies simply by plugging in one player. The lax play by their skaters has got to end. Thompson and Cozens have been atrocious in this recent span in particular. Key personnel can’t be that lacking in fundamental play in their own zone and expect good results.

But hey we got em on good contracts…..

 

[Chainshot]

But hey we got em on good contracts…..

That implies that they can't remedy that play. I don't think that is the case.

 

[old kummelweck]

 

[Tatanka]

I'm not a hockey strategist, I have never played the game.

However, going back to when Granato took over, one of the first things he did was, essentially, remove the defensive shackles from the team. The games had no consequence to them. So the players were allowed to just play and learn to score goals and be creative at the NHL level. I pointed out that offensive growth in games with zero consequence in a system, essentially, free of defensive responsibility, could be difficult to gauge against players in a defensive system.

It was effective and unleashed Thompson, Dahlin, brought Skinner back, developed Cozens.

The question is, HOW do we put the genie back in the bottle, especially when we have two seasons of bad habits to, essentially, undo. And how much will that gimp our offense? Do we need to bring in a bad cop coach who essentially will be the asshole and bench guys for missing their assignments if Don won't. It's a real problem that has to be addressed.

This is the danger of developing players in the bigs. You have to give them a long leash. However, when there is no accountability for poor performance as measured in team accomplishment, w’s, it is almost impossible to flip that switch. If you listen to Seth Appert in the interview Chain posted in prospects thread he talks about talking with Kullich about playing defense. He says do you like defense? Kullich says no. Appert then shows him video and says well this is what you need to do be on offense. Those type of lessons are rightfully taught in the minors. When they are brought up, the mindset has to be do whatever it takes to get a w. It is your job to win. Too many of players haven’t caught on yet or that is not the message being sent.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

I keep telling myself that Donnie is letting them try to figure out defensive play on their own this year before hammering it into their skulls in the offseason. He's maintained that it's easier to teach kids defensive responsibility than it is offensive freedom. So I'm just hoping this is all part of a master plan that he has.

I think he is. Joe Sakic came in the league as an offensive phenom and told us that he had to learn how to play defense, that it took along time and it was really, really hard work.

Joe was one of the guys who was always in the training room working hard at maintaining and improving his fitness. He said he didn't learn how hard defense was until 95/96. That about 8 years into his NHL career.

The Sabres have so much youth on this roster. I look at that and think, sure, what Granato and a bunch of posters here are saying makes sense and is legit.

Last night vs Dallas was about mental and physical burnout versus lack of a defensive system. They have a system. They just didn't execute it and ignored all the little details. (Positioning, steering, blocking out, covering sticks, angling and a general lack of intensity versus inertia.)

 

[Tatanka]

That implies that they can't remedy that play. I don't think that is the case.

Cozens I can see simplifying his game. He has reset at times in the past.

 

[Chainshot]

I think he is. Joe Sakic came in the league as an offensive phenom and told us that he had to learn how to play defense, that it took along time and it was really, really hard work.

Joe was one of the guys who was always in the training room working hard at maintaining and improving his fitness. He said he didn't learn how hard defense was until 95/96. That about 8 years into his NHL career.

The Sabres have so much youth on this roster. I look at that and think, sure, what Granato and a bunch of posters here are saying makes sense and is legit.

Last night vs Dallas was about mental and physical burnout versus lack of a defensive system. They have a system. They just didn't execute it and ignored all the little details. (Positioning, steering, blocking out, covering sticks, angling and a general lack of intensity versus inertia.)

It took Steve Yzerman almost 10 years to figure out that he had to worry about his side of the ice more than the attacking zone. He went at it with Bowman over being reined in. And now we think back on him as being one of the greats because we forget the empty calorie scoring he had in the '80's. It was similar with Sakic with the Nords - all one way.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

It took Steve Yzerman almost 10 years to figure out that he had to worry about his side of the ice more than the attacking zone. He went at it with Bowman over being reined in. And now we think back on him as being one of the greats because we forget the empty calorie scoring he had in the '80's. It was similar with Sakic with the Nords - all one way.

You definitely know your hockey!!!

 

[Chainshot]

You definitely know your hockey!!!

I would also point out that when Gretzky was asked why the Oilers didn't play a defense-heavy system but could do so in the playoffs, he responded by saying it was boring so why not have fun? I think there is a balance the Sabres can strike where they play appropriate to the situation.

I would almost say that these last few games the forwards are making mistakes where they are trying to leave early, as in "playing to their identity" for them means trying to press the play up the ice without handling the defensive assignment completely. The disconnect is pressing for offense without handling play in their own zone.

And the lack of crisp passing looks like a team that isn't practicing.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

The Sabres are playing $17+ million under the cap. Really $22 M with Bishop.

We should stop pretending that it doesn't matter.

That money could easily have deployed a depth RD of serious quality, a 3rd line centre who could take face-offs and a $5 M goalie who could stop the puck.

If we continue to ice a team below the cap (and I know we have some good long-term deals) get ready to be an also ran forever.

The cap crunch wasn't until 2024-2025, but management chose to not compete to its fullest this year, and that will likely continue into next year.

We would be in the thick of the playoffs if the money was deployed and we didn't have to use almost any draft capital. This wasn't about Chychrun like everyone keeps trying to make it out to be. No one wants to give up Savoie or Kulich. It was about depth we could have got for 3rd or 4ths and using our cap room which management refused to do.

The playoffs will be missed again.

This is on Pegula. Maybe the worst owner in the history of the league, rivalling the Devil ownership before they won cups.

 

[WhereAreTheCookies]

The Sabres are playing $17+ million under the cap. Really $22 M with Bishop.

We should stop pretending that it doesn't matter.

That money could easily have deployed a depth RD of serious quality, a 3rd line centre who could take face-offs and a $5 M goalie who could stop the puck.

If we continue to ice a team below the cap (and I know we have some good long-term deals) get ready to be an also ran forever.

The cap crunch wasn't until 2024-2025, but management chose to not compete to its fullest this year, and that will likely continue into next year.

We would be in the thick of the playoffs if the money was deployed and we didn't have to use almost any draft capital. This wasn't about Chychrun like everyone keeps trying to make it out to be. No one wants to give up Savoie or Kulich. It was about depth we could have got for 3rd or 4ths and using our cap room which management refused to do.

The playoffs will be missed again.

This is on Pegula. Maybe the worst owner in the history of the league, rivalling the Devil ownership before they won cups.

Like Adams didn't say at the beginning of the year this would be another development year. Please name the players that they could have brought in that would have this team in a playoff position. I'm dying to hear all of these great missed opportunities that live inside of your head. The team starts to be competitive and some of you lose your damn minds because they didn't go out and load up in free agency.

Have you ever even once considered that part of the reason they are competitive is because of the young players getting more opportunity because of them NOT loading up in free agency? How well have all of those free agent acquisitions worked out for Detroit? Flyers? Caps? Cbus? What makes you think Buffalo wouldn't be in the same position as them right now?

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

The entire team is lacking in fundamental play in their own zone. It's clearly an issue of the coach not feeling that is important which is why I keep becoming less supportive of the coach with each passing day. The longer bad habits are tolerated the harder it is to break them and there is nothing in all of hockey less valuable than one way players. Having an entire roster of one way players completely lost in their own end is a surefire way to lose lots of games.

I posted about this a couple months ago. At some point "letting them play through mistakes" becomes letting them get used to making mistakes. I always figured Granato would try to coach and practice that part out of them in the second half of the season...surely not allow this terrible approach to go all the way through April. But yet, here we are.

 

[MarkusKetterer]

I'm good with everything there but letting Zemgus go. He's that 4th liner that would thrive in the playoffs......all SC contenders would love to snag him.

I like Zemgus, but at the same time, I’m fine with him not being back. He’s the last remnant of the tank teams, and I’d prefer that everyone from those teams are gone for nothing more than all ties to that are cut.

But he was a Sabres fan growing up, so he’ll probably be a Sabre lifer, which I’m fine with. Until we retire his number

 

[Irie]

Not saying this Sabres team isn’t, but who is the future coach or GM on this team. Kyle is an easy guess because he’s such a veteran. Who else?

For just leadership, I think it is pretty clear that Tuch is head and shoulders above anyone else on this roster.

Watching him grab Dahlin and calm him down to avoid a penalty, or watching him rally the team and get everyone into a game, there is no one on the current team even close.

Kyle is a great mentor and an amazing team dad, but the way this team continually comes out flat and has trouble rallying until half way through the third period is a scathing indictment on his captaincy.

I think when the team had just three alternate captains, everyone felt a little more empowered to speak up, and last year's team seemed to be a lot more resilient down the stretch than this squad currently is.

 

[Ace]

The playoffs will be missed again.

This is on Pegula. Maybe the worst owner in the history of the league, rivalling the Devil ownership before they won cups.

I can’t see an argument for anyone else but Pegula. He’s never made the playoffs in a season that began under his ownership. An nhl record and a legit 0% success. His hockey ownership is the worst in sports history.

 

[Irie]

I posted about this a couple months ago. At some point "letting them play through mistakes" becomes letting them get used to making mistakes. I always figured Granato would try to coach and practice that part out of them in the second half of the season...surely not allow this terrible approach to go all the way through April. But yet, here we are.

I think the problem goes beyond letting them play through mistakes.

Young guys are going to make mistakes, and that is fine. imo, they make for good teaching moments, but this team has a structure issue.

Defensively they are not a team, and the coaching has done nothing to work on defensive spacing or a scheme, and it is clear no one knows where they should be or where their teammates are going to be.

 

[Fezzy126]

Regarding the defensive system vs players discussion, I really think fans lean way too heavily into the "Offensive System" excuses.

There are two examples of goals scored against us in the past week that immediately spring to mind.

The first example is GA3 (the GWG) against Edmonton. This is an example of system breakdown. In the first screen shot Dahlin aggressively tries to cut off the neutral zone outlet from Ekholm.

Dahlin misses the puck, and Edmonton immediately has a 2-on-1. Even though Skinner is good position on the backcheck, the defenseman has to concede the blueline, resulting in an uncontested zone entry. Eventually, Foegele finds McDavid coming with speed and the goal is scored.

We can argue about the quality of the goal or Bryson, but this goal is a product of the aggressive system. Dahlin's aggressiveness in the neutral zone starts the entire play.

---

Now, for the second example, GA3 against the Stars last night. Heiskanen streaks in from the point and finds Benn in front, who lifts the puck over Comrie's shoulder.

On this goal, perhaps the only one playing the "system" is Jokiharju. He attempts to pressure Heiskanen, and gets low to try and deny the pass. He doesn't do a great job with it, but I can take players making mistakes while doing what they should do. The other four Sabres are covering no one and just watching the puck. I mean FFS, Heiskanen could have done anything here - kept skating around the net and hit the backside man, or even went high slot. Every Stars player in this shot is completely unmarked.

There is no system in the world that tells you not to physically engage an opponent standing near you. This GA should be chalked up to youth, inexperience, lack of attention to detail, poor awareness, laziness, you name it. Point is, it's on the players, not the coaches.

From my perspective, an overwhelming majority of goals against have been similar to this one, and the fault is with the players. I honestly think this to be is expected, these are kids, they've never had to play with this much attention to detail their whole lives. At the end of the day they'll figure it out, but I don't have concerns about the system being the problem.

 

[truthbluth]

Not one single Sabres fan in 2005 was pontificating on the qualities of Daniel Briere in the context of their translatability to the General Manager position 18 years into the future lol

Are you being this obtuse on purpose? Of course no one thought about Danny Briere being a GM, but he was clearly a leader. We had a team full of leaders. We could all see that. Do we see that now? No. No, obviously not.

 

[Selanne00008]

Regarding the defensive system vs players discussion, I really think fans lean way too heavily into the "Offensive System" excuses.

There are two examples of goals scored against us in the past week that immediately spring to mind.

The first example is GA3 (the GWG) against Edmonton. This is an example of system breakdown. In the first screen shot Dahlin aggressively tries to cut off the neutral zone outlet from Ekholm.

View attachment 666746




View attachment 666750

On this goal, perhaps the only one playing the "system" is Jokiharju. He attempts to pressure Heiskanen, and gets low to try and deny the pass. He doesn't do a great job with it, but I can take players making mistakes while doing what they should do. The other four Sabres are covering no one and just watching the puck. I mean FFS, Heiskanen could have done anything here - kept skating around the net and hit the backside man, or even went high slot. Every Stars player in this shot is completely unmarked.

There is no system in the world that tells you not to physically engage an opponent standing near you. This GA should be chalked up to youth, inexperience, lack of attention to detail, poor awareness, laziness, you name it. Point is, it's on the players, not the coaches.

From my perspective, an overwhelming majority of goals against have been similar to this one, and the fault is with the players. I honestly think this to be is expected, these are kids, they've never had to play with this much attention to detail their whole lives. At the end of the day they'll figure it out, but I don't have concerns about the system being the problem.

I genrally agree with this. I'm not too worried about bad habits die hard here. Average age 26. There are dozens of similar goals like this where the center for example is "back" helping out, but doesn't have anyone marked. You gotta pickup the man in the slot, etc. They'll get there IMO.


I will say one thing. I'm glad they didn't burn their 2023 1st on a roster player that would come in here for a year or two.

 

[Irie]

I think he is. Joe Sakic came in the league as an offensive phenom and told us that he had to learn how to play defense, that it took along time and it was really, really hard work.

Joe was one of the guys who was always in the training room working hard at maintaining and improving his fitness. He said he didn't learn how hard defense was until 95/96. That about 8 years into his NHL career.

The Sabres have so much youth on this roster. I look at that and think, sure, what Granato and a bunch of posters here are saying makes sense and is legit.

Last night vs Dallas was about mental and physical burnout versus lack of a defensive system. They have a system. They just didn't execute it and ignored all the little details. (Positioning, steering, blocking out, covering sticks, angling and a general lack of intensity versus inertia.)

I think it is important to expand on this, because while it brings up a lot of important issues on developing well rounded defensively strong players and the difficulty in that, it is important to distinguish that there are different aspects of defense that can and can't easily be addressed.

Sakic was a center, which is the toughest position to play as they have to constantly make reads and their location on the ice is critical to avoiding odd-man chances.

Reading the plays, tracking opposition forwards and maintaining disciplined positioning while contributing offensively is a lot to juggle and requires an elite awareness.

But all players do not have to have that aptitude for a team to be successful defensively.

Another type of D is defensive zone positioning which goes hand-in-hand with penalty killing.

A lot of great penalty killers are somewhat deficient at defensive reads in the offensive and neutral zones. Good skaters with active sticks can be pretty outstanding penalty killers and a great asset in the D zone when playing with similarly proficient defensive players that are all in sync with the same strategy and are coached to focus on spacing and always layering their D to take away lanes. This is the D we are talking about here. This team could be proficient with the current roster in it's own end with a simple D-zone philosophy that could be installed and working in a couple of weeks, and takes nothing away from Granato's philosophy of encouraging the players to read and adapt in the other areas of the ice.

It wouldn't solve the break-away problem, (that is a smaller discipline issue that could be addressed separately), but it would likely curtail the 10-15 high danger chances they give up per night from the "Keystone Cops" routine they often perform in their own zone like the one below. (Note: Comrie and the Sabre's goal is just off screen to the left)