Roster thread: Get To Work (2022-2023 Season)

[TehDoak]

"The Amerks under Botterill's management were clearly a better product than they are under Adams."

and your proof is....

Don't worry though, you have Adams making this a playoff team to look forward to while somehow arguing "Botterill would've done this faster!"

I never argued Botterill was a good GM. He was a bad GM. I was among the angriest people when they announced he would be back.

He simply spent resources on the Amerks and made it a priority, something Adams immediately undid.

You want sustainable success? Spending on your AHL team brings sustainable success. I'm not sure why this is even an argument.

It was the ONE thing Botterill did right as a GM. And it's something Adams has not done, for whatever reasons. We can talk about the cheapness issue again, but I'm reasonably sure most posters are sick of that discussion as well.

 

[Gabrielor]

I never argued Botterill was a good GM. He was a bad GM. I was among the angriest people when they announced he would be back.

He simply spent resources on the Amerks and made it a priority, something Adams immediately undid.

You want sustainable success? Spending on your AHL team brings sustainable success. I'm not sure why this is even an argument.

It was the ONE thing Botterill did right as a GM. And it's something Adams has not done, for whatever reasons. We can talk about the cheapness issue again, but I'm reasonably sure most posters are sick of that discussion as well.

and yet, Adams has made it further in the post-season, and has developed more NHL players in less time.

You're shark jumping.

 

[Mattilaus]

I never argued Botterill was a good GM. He was a bad GM. I was among the angriest people when they announced he would be back.

He simply spent resources on the Amerks and made it a priority, something Adams immediately undid.

You want sustainable success? Spending on your AHL team brings sustainable success. I'm not sure why this is even an argument.

It was the ONE thing Botterill did right as a GM. And it's something Adams has not done, for whatever reasons. We can talk about the cheapness issue again, but I'm reasonably sure most posters are sick of that discussion as well.

I mean, he did do ONE other thing right in getting TNT. But it does seem like that was more luck than skill since reports are he wanted Kyrou or Thomas instead and also that he tried to trade Thompson later for a 5th.

 

[Djp]

I mean, he did do ONE other thing right in getting TNT. But it does seem like that was more luck than skill since reports are he wanted Kyrou or Thomas instead and also that he tried to trade Thompson later for a 5th.

A broken clock shows the correct time 2 times a day….

 

[Diaspora]

Yawn. You are looking at the exception rather than what EVERY SINGLE OTHER CUP WINNERS HAVE DONE. Not sure why this has become a thing. Hoarding picks to the level Adams has isn't going to produce more NHLers. It's just going to create a giant prospect logjam of mediocrity because....









....You can only develop so many players in the AHL at a time. Successful AHL teams typically are VETERAN TEAMS. Botterill f***ed up lots of stuff at the NHL level....but he did build a successful AHL team

Rochester Americans hockey team statistics and history at hockeydb.com

Historical facts and data about the Rochester Americans hockey team of the AHL, including players, standings, logos, and game program images.

www.hockeydb.com

The Amerks under Botterill's management were clearly a better product than they are under Adams.

It should also be pointed out that the Hershey Bears success was parallel to the Capitals. As was Syracuse Crunch's success was parallel to Tampa's. And Pittsburgh/Wilkes Barre. And Detroit/Grand Rapids. Toronto and the Marlies.

The whole point before we got sidetracked on this stupid f***ing tangent is that hoarding picks isn't a pathway to success. The fact that the model franchise in the NHL has gone the 'f*** those picks' should tell you something of the value of volume of draft picks.

Developing players through a successful AHL team is the proper way. But that means there is a limit to how many young players can develop through a single AHL team at a time.




The fact that we are lined up for TEN more picks this year and Adams is out in pressers talking about the sanctity of our precious draft capital is what set this whole thing off. It reinforces the idea there is a lack of any real strategy to building and being successful other than 'draft draft draft'.

I think you have some valid points. But I don't think you want to liquidate our four picks in the top 60 of 2023 for rentals at the deadline. You can concentrate those picks on draft day.

Unless they can really stock up on defenseman at the draft, I think that making all four of those pics would be a mistake. And with that being said, I'm under the impression that this is not a great draft year for defenseman.

So I'm really hoping that they do move some of these picks for roster players. I would love to see them work out a Devon Toews type deal for two 2nds. If there's something like that to be found.

 

[TehDoak]

and yet, Adams has made it further in the post-season, and has developed more NHL players in less time.

You're shark jumping.

Lawd I never said Botterill was a good GM.

And Adams isn't either. And neither was Murray. Regier was OK, but take away a Veznia winning goalie and he looked pretty mediocre as a GM as well.

This fanbase is so beaten down by being bad for so long, the slightest sniff of being not terrible and everyone is ready to give out lifetime contracts.

 

[Diaspora]

Yawn. You are looking at the exception rather than what EVERY SINGLE OTHER CUP WINNERS HAVE DONE.

One more thing: I think you're making a fundamental mistake in how you look at this.

The Bruins are a dominant, record-setting team this year. And their odds at winning the cup are, at best, about 30%. That's significantly less than a coin flip. But their window has been open for more than 10 years. They've already won one Cup with this core.

The way to win the Cup is to keep your window open as long as possible until the odds work out in your favor. If you can keep your window open for a full decade, then there's a good chance you'll win one or two Cups. So the strategy should be to keep your window open for a decade, and let the odds work for you rather than against you.

 

[CowbellConray]

One more thing: I think you're making a fundamental mistake in how you look at this.

The Bruins are a dominant, record-setting team this year. And their odds at winning the cup are, at best, about 30%. That's significantly less than a coin flip.

The way to win the Cup, is to keep your window open as long as possible until the odds work out in your favor. If you can keep your window open for a full decade, then there's a good chance you'll win one or two Cups. So the strategy should be to keep your window open for a decade, and let the odds work for you rather than against you.

Absolutely. Look at the lightning taking YEARs to win their back to back cups. They developed their talent (point, gourde, Johnson, Palat) and then insulated after they had developed a consistently good team.

Winning takes time, consistency, and luck

 

[Gabrielor]

Lawd I never said Botterill was a good GM.

And Adams isn't either. And neither was Murray. Regier was OK, but take away a Veznia winning goalie and he looked pretty mediocre as a GM as well.

This fanbase is so beaten down by being bad for so long, the slightest sniff of being not terrible and everyone is ready to give out lifetime contracts.

Adams stripped down a team and made 3 great trades doing it. Eichel trade in particular wasn't easy.

Adams rebuilt the culture of a dead, doomed team in 2 years. That's very hard to do.

We'll see if he can do the next hard part, contention, but he's had the best start to a GM career in Buffalo since Regier in the 90s.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I never argued Botterill was a good GM. He was a bad GM. I was among the angriest people when they announced he would be back.

He simply spent resources on the Amerks and made it a priority, something Adams immediately undid.

You want sustainable success? Spending on your AHL team brings sustainable success. I'm not sure why this is even an argument.

It was the ONE thing Botterill did right as a GM. And it's something Adams has not done, for whatever reasons. We can talk about the cheapness issue again, but I'm reasonably sure most posters are sick of that discussion as well.

Well, the problem with this point is it’s untrue. Our prospects have developed in the AHL under Adams. Quinn and Peterka? Now Kulich and Rosen. When a notable prospects has gone to the AHL, they have developed well and have carried the team.

You may have forgotten this, but a huge issue under both Botts and Murray is our prospects would always seemingly stop developing once we got them to the AHL

 

[michaelsaas]

This fanbase is so beaten down by being bad for so long, the slightest sniff of being not terrible and everyone is ready to give out lifetime contracts.

I think it is just a different perspective on timeline. Speaking only for myself, I recognize that things were so disastrous that we needed to rebuild from scratch AGAIN. For me this year was always a development year and I expected us to be a bubble team in March and it looks like that will be the case. I don't expect us to make the playoffs and I have no significant complaints about Adams so far.

If this summer passes and he hasn't capitalized on a tight cap and draft pics/prospects to acquire support for the team, then save me a seat on the "real concerns" of KA bandwagon.

edited to clarify my position on KA now and in the future, so everyone can feel free to use this post to hold me accountable to my whining or lack thereof

 

[TehDoak]

One more thing: I think you're making a fundamental mistake in how you look at this.

The Bruins are a dominant, record-setting team this year. And their odds at winning the cup are, at best, about 30%. That's significantly less than a coin flip. But their window has been open for more than 10 years. They've already won one Cup with this core.

The way to win the Cup is to keep your window open as long as possible until the odds work out in your favor. If you can keep your window open for a full decade, then there's a good chance you'll win one or two Cups. So the strategy should be to keep your window open for a decade, and let the odds work for you rather than against you.

So, first off, we have not entered our contention window.

Second, IF our window opens (it's far from a forgone conclusion), you keep it open by asset management. If you look at the Bruins, they moved out young core pieces (Thornton, Kessel, Seguin, Hamilton, Lucic, etc) and kept a constant influx of talent and transformed their core more than once.

 

[Djp]

I think you have some valid points. But I don't think you want to liquidate our four picks in the top 60 of 2023 for rentals at the deadline. You can concentrate those picks on draft day.

Unless they can really stock up on defenseman at the draft, I think that making all four of those pics would be a mistake. And with that being said, I'm under the impression that this is not a great draft year for defenseman.

So I'm really hoping that they do move some of these picks for roster players. I would love to see them work out a Devon Toews type deal for two 2nds. If there's something like that to be found.

the team is not fully rebuilt. They are lacking in D depth in prospect pool.

thus is important in a few years where you can use ELC against higher short term contracts.

say they draft at least 2 Dmen in 2023-25 draft too 60 and the sign Johnson.

in 25/26-29/30 you can have 2 of your top 6 D on low contracts.

starting in 24/25 they coukd really target making moves to fill missing pieces.

One more thing: I think you're making a fundamental mistake in how you look at this.

The Bruins are a dominant, record-setting team this year. And their odds at winning the cup are, at best, about 30%. That's significantly less than a coin flip. But their window has been open for more than 10 years. They've already won one Cup with this core.

The way to win the Cup is to keep your window open as long as possible until the odds work out in your favor. If you can keep your window open for a full decade, then there's a good chance you'll win one or two Cups. So the strategy should be to keep your window open for a decade, and let the odds work for you rather than against you.

if r erything goes well in your drafting over 4 years you can have 12 year window of competing fir a cup. Thr ptproblem is how dies the change over work in terms of restocking the prosoect pool, moving current roster, and how well you can draft outside top 20. Teams that fail tend to have a shorter window. Some teams might take a step back for a year when you might make playoffs but not a cup team

in a few years with the top drafted forwards— Peterka, Quinn, Rosen, Savoie, Kulich, Ostlund , + others they probably trade a few of them to target other needs and control capspace.

 

[Chainshot]

Circling back to actual rental ideas:

Derek Grant would make a ton of sense if they wanted the pure rental route. Would be cheap, fills a role, immediate improvement on PK and Faceoffs. I *think* that would probably end someone on waivers (Hino again or Jost).

Roster limits lift on deadline day. They wouldn't need to move anyone.

 

[Djp]

So, first off, we have not entered our contention window.

Second, IF our window opens (it's far from a forgone conclusion), you keep it open by asset management. If you look at the Bruins, they moved out young core pieces (Thornton, Kessel, Seguin, Hamilton, Lucic, etc) and kept a constant influx of talent and transformed their core more than once.

yes there are going to be times you make trades like that. With that comes luck. Nobody expected Boston trading Krpessel and getting 2 top 10 picks and a long starting goalie in Rask.
it’s especially true today with a cap.

Chicago won cup thrn made a bunch of moves due to cap space and retooled the team.

 

[TehDoak]

Roster limits lift on deadline day. They wouldn't need to move anyone.

Then yeah, no real reason not to look at that TYPE of rental. Cost a mid round pick, fills a need.

If we can come out with a Grant-type forward rental and a top 4 d-man, that'd be a home run of a trade deadline.

 

[Djp]

Roster limits lift on deadline day. They wouldn't need to move anyone.

To add…

Hino does not to clear waivers again until the 10 day/30 game count kicks in.

buffalo can do paper transactions sending ELCs down making them eligible for Rochester Playoffs then call them up

roster space is not an issue

contracts also don’t apply if they are signing next year contracts during the March 1-June 1 ELC signing period

 

[Chainshot]

Then yeah, no real reason not to look at that TYPE of rental. Cost a mid round pick, fills a need.

If we can come out with a Grant-type forward rental and a top 4 d-man, that'd be a home run of a trade deadline.

Yeah, some insurance at forward and someone like Soucy would be great.

 

[Dubi Doo]

Well, the problem with this point is it’s untrue. Our prospects have developed in the AHL under Adams. Quinn and Peterka? Now Kulich and Rosen. When a notable prospects has gone to the AHL, they have developed well and have carried the team.

You may have forgotten this, but a huge issue under both Botts and Murray is our prospects would always seemingly stop developing once we got them to the AHL

Oh yeah- I can speak on this. I remember watching Armia, Grigorenko, etc...come up, and they would show flashes, but nothing like what we saw from Peterka and Quinn. I mean- Quinn had one of the best seasons for his age range of any prospect since Briere. He TORE it up.

It's honestly comical someone would say prospects arent developing well in the ROC under Adams. It's blatantly false, and when someone is shown proof and STILL chooses to double down...the the narrative theyre trying to sell has warped their reality.

 

[Chainshot]

To add…

Hino does not to clear waivers again until the 10 day/30 game count kicks in.

buffalo can do paper transactions sending ELCs down making them eligible for Rochester Playoffs then call them up

roster space is not an issue

contracts also don’t apply if they are signing next year contracts during the March 1-June 1 ELC signing period

They only have a couple of days left until the limit lifts. In the meantime, they have two games between now and the roster limit change (Jackets, Bruins) so they probably won't have to make any sort of moves, just get the agreement to do it on Friday.

 

[Chainshot]

Oh yeah- I can speak on this. I remember watching Armia, Grigorenko, etc...come up, and they would show flashes, but nothing like what we saw from Peterka and Quinn. I mean- Quinn had one of the best seasons for his age range of any prospect since Briere. He TORE it up. It's honestly comical someone would say prospects arent developing well in the ROC under Adams. It's blatantly false, and when someone is shown proof and STILL chooses to double down...the the narrative theyre trying to sell has warped their reality.

And while Kulich isn't ready yet he is having one of (and may wind up with THE) best 18-year old seasons in the AHL. Prospect growth down there has definitely been better now than it has been under most of the previous regimes going back almost 20 years to the old Rochester Core days.

 

[WhereAreTheCookies]

Yeah, some insurance at forward and someone like Soucy would be great.

I'm curious what the plan is for the Sharks. Are they in full sell mode now or trying to re-tool on the fly. If they are in full sell maybe Sturm could be had for a mid round pick and a B prospect.

 

[Chainshot]

I'm curious what the plan is for the Sharks. Are they in full sell mode now or trying to re-tool on the fly. If they are in full sell maybe Sturm could be had for a mid round pick and a B prospect.

At some point I went from liking Sturm to not liking Sturm. That said, San Jose seems to be selling what they can.

 

[GettingYourMoms]

And while Kulich isn't ready yet he is having one of (and may wind up with THE) best 18-year old seasons in the AHL. Prospect growth down there has definitely been better now than it has been under most of the previous regimes going back almost 20 years to the old Rochester Core days.

This draft was batshit insane for Czech Rep. Could wery well be better or at least as good as 2014 draft with Pastrnak, Vrana(hope he will recover), Vejmelka and Vanecek. Also having best D prospect in the world rn in Jiricek future is bright for czech hockey and it looks like even better defensive prospects are on their way..

 

[Djp]

And while Kulich isn't ready yet he is having one of (and may wind up with THE) best 18-year old seasons in the AHL. Prospect growth down there has definitely been better now than it has been under most of the previous regimes going back almost 20 years to the old Rochester Core days.

That’s why I think he gets to play some next year. They want him sliding.

expect him on Sabres 24/25roster.

if buffalo clinches a playoff spot before the final 2-2 games of Ott/ cbs that he gets a call up to play.

Just depends on how many paper transactions they make with Rochester at deadline