Roster thread: Get To Work (2022-2023 Season)

[TehDoak]

It's the correct attitude to have. The question is -- what exactly is this "draft capital" that KA is holding onto? If he means our 1st, that's fine.

But I think trading away one (or maybe even 2) of those seconds is something that certainly should be within reason for the right player.

He has made 22 draft picks the last two seasons. We already have so many prospects we likely will lose some for nothing due to the contract limit in a few years. The fact that he’s even talking about ‘not wasting draft capital’ is just code for ‘I’m not doing shit’. Whether it’s a budget issue or a competence issue at this point, it doesn’t matter. I’d be shocked if we spend a 7th at this point.

 

[CrazyWayne]

It's the correct attitude to have. The question is -- what exactly is this "draft capital" that KA is holding onto? If he means our 1st, that's fine.

But I think trading away one (or maybe even 2) of those seconds is something that certainly should be within reason for the right player.

That's my opinion as well

Also assets like portillio and Johnson that are of some value and trade able

Don't have to go all in on a guy but with tuch and dahlin injured there are guys that can help out there

 

[Zman5778]

He has made 22 draft picks the last two seasons. We already have so many prospects we likely will lose some for nothing due to the contract limit in a few years.

Every team loses prospects for nothing every year. Not every prospect turns out. Of those 22, how many are actually going to DESERVE contracts? And then of those, how many will we be forced to "lose for nothing"? My bet is zero.

As far as the code of which you speak -- you keep grinding that axe of yours.

 

[TehDoak]

Every team loses prospects for nothing every year. Not every prospect turns out. Of those 22, how many are actually going to DESERVE contracts? And then of those, how many will we be forced to "lose for nothing"? My bet is zero.

As far as the code of which you speak -- you keep grinding that axe of yours.

Well if he’s as bad as drafting as you say then we should definitely trade some picks.

 

[Zman5778]

Well if he’s as bad as drafting as you say then we should definitely trade some picks.

Where on earth do you pull that from? If we offer contracts to 15 of the 22, that's a great hit rate. And we certainly have the roster space to hit on that many. Hell, we have the contract space if all 22 somehow miraculously deserve contracts.

 

[TehDoak]

Where on earth do you pull that from? If we offer contracts to 15 of the 22, that's a great hit rate. And we certainly have the roster space to hit on that many. Hell, we have the contract space if all 22 somehow miraculously deserve contracts.

We have 25 players under contract next year.

16 of those are NHL players.

We have essentially no d-men under contract for rochester and have options on several forwards.

Oh and no goalies for the ahl either

If you assume you will add 6 nhl contracts, 3 ahl d contracts, and 3 ahl forward contracts, and 1 goalie, that’s 38 contracts. we have 17 unsigned prospects from the last two draft classes. And we have TEN more picks this year.

We are going to lose guys. Whether it’s due to the 50 contract limit or simply over flooding Rochester with prospects and not having the room for even AHL ice time. There is such a thing as too many prospects and we are already there BEFORE this draft where we have 10 picks. And this is just sheer volume, not even counting that nearly all our prospects are forwards.

Any talk of wanting to persevere draft capital at this point is either a profound misunderstanding of the limits of the NHL development system or simply repeating meaningless talking points to cover a lack of financial commitment from ownership.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

It's the correct attitude to have. The question is -- what exactly is this "draft capital" that KA is holding onto? If he means our 1st, that's fine.

But I think trading away one (or maybe even 2) of those seconds is something that certainly should be within reason for the right player.

A guy like Sam Lafferty makes sense both before and after the Tuch injury. Not spending a mere 2nd rd pick for depth like that (that can play now and fill a hole next year) is just "sticking to the plan" at a fault.

 

[Gabrielor]

We have 25 players under contract next year.

16 of those are NHL players.

We have essentially no d-men under contract for rochester and have options on several forwards.

Oh and no goalies for the ahl either

If you assume you will add 6 nhl contracts, 3 ahl d contracts, and 3 ahl forward contracts, and 1 goalie, that’s 38 contracts. we have 17 unsigned prospects from the last two draft classes. And we have TEN more picks this year.

We are going to lose guys. Whether it’s due to the 50 contract limit or simply over flooding Rochester with prospects and not having the room for even AHL ice time. There is such a thing as too many prospects and we are already there BEFORE this draft where we have 10 picks. And this is just sheer volume, not even counting that nearly all our prospects are forwards.

Any talk of wanting to persevere draft capital at this point is either a profound misunderstanding of the limits of the NHL development system or simply repeating meaningless talking points to cover a lack of financial commitment from ownership.

It certainly does come off as 'simply repeating meaningless talking points' when no one asks him to clarify it the past 2 years.

 

[Irie]

Any talk of wanting to persevere draft capital at this point is either a profound misunderstanding of the limits of the NHL development system or simply repeating meaningless talking points to cover a lack of financial commitment from ownership.

Because no team that has horded picks, building super deep and talented farms has ever had sustained, longterm success from the philisophy

The obsession with moving out high draft capital for short term help that will likely be gone when this team's window opens is not really a route to build a contender - and claiming it is the only way to properly build the team is not grounded in historical reality.

Trading a 2nd which might be another Sameulsson for a rental that has a good chance of barely playing 20 games for the team, all in an effort to not lose a 7th round selection picked years ago is not the way and should not be the motivating factor in decisions. Anyone that holds this belief has a "profound misunderstanding" and is understating the historical significance of having an elite farm system in this league since the cap came into existence.

 

[TehDoak]

Because no team that has horded picks, building super deep and talented farms has ever had sustained, longterm success from the philisophy

Funny you say that. The closest cup champion post lockout to have this volume of draft picks in back to back years was the capitals in 06 and 07. And even then it wasn’t until 12 years later they won a cup. So no, this volume of hoarding picks and players isn’t a successful strategy. Shocking, I know.

The obsession with moving out high draft capital for short term help that will likely be gone when this team's window opens is not really a route to build a contender - and claiming it is the only way to properly build the team is not grounded in historical reality.

Trading a 2nd which might be another Sameulsson for a rental that has a good chance of barely playing 20 games for the team, all in an effort to not lose a 7th round selection picked years ago is not the way and should not be the motivating factor in decisions. Anyone that holds this belief has a "profound misunderstanding" and is understating the historical significance of having an elite farm system in this league since the cap came into existence.

I don’t think anyone is clamoring for the Sabres to make high profile rentals. Meier wasn’t going to be a rental. Converting the draft picks to immediate help when we have both excess prospects and excess cap space to do so is what I am looking for. The fact they haven’t already given the steps the team took last year speaks to the lack of organizational competence of the front office. The idea that Adams got up there and said he wouldn’t compromise their future draft capital when they are already overflowing with prospects is what is laughable. It’s mind boggling how little work Adams and co have done to help the current roster post eichel trade.

 

[Irie]

Funny you say that. The closest cup champion post lockout to have this volume of draft picks in back to back years was the capitals in 06 and 07. And even then it wasn’t until 12 years later they won a cup. So no, this volume of hoarding picks and players isn’t a successful strategy. Shocking, I know.

And after having that many picks in subsequent years, they finished first in their division 10 out of the next 13 seasons, with 2 2nd place finishes mixed in - Shocking, right?

What the hell is your definition of success?

 

[Ace]

A thousand draft picks don’t change the simple fact that the defense blows and the future is barren.

They need multiple NHL quality D. And they needed them 7 months ago.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

I can understand not making a bigger splash at the Dcorps in the summer or the first half of the season while waiting to see what Bryson and Fitzgerald were going to be. Now though, the only hope is Ryan Johnson and who knows if he even signs. I hope to hell that the Johnson signing isn't going to hold KA hostage from making a better move (whether it's KA being too cautious or Johnson being overly difficult). Either way, this is one of the main chances that KA gets to improve the Dcorps. If it doesn't happen this week, there really better be a top notch solution coming down the pike in the next six months.

 

[TehDoak]

And after having that many picks in subsequent years, they finished first in their division 10 out of the next 13 seasons, with 2 2nd place finishes mixed in - Shocking, right?

What the hell is your definition of success?

Lol. I point out all but one cup champ didn’t near the same volume of picks the Sabres did (and for the record, the caps didn’t do it for a 3rd straight year) and you suddenly correlate it to years of success?

If you want to see the reason for the caps success, look at the Hershey bears. And that isn’t about volume of draft picks, it’s about developing the draft picks. It was the one thing botterill had correct and it was the first thing Adams blew up (the amerks)

 

[Old Navy Goat]

Which players developed under Botterill? Adams has done a much better job developing talent. You may argue the results of the youth movement in the standings, but the kids have been placed in big roles and have thrived.

 

[Irie]

Lol. I point out all but one cup champ didn’t near the same volume of picks the Sabres did (and for the record, the caps didn’t do it for a 3rd straight year) and you suddenly correlate it to years of success?

If you want to see the reason for the caps success, look at the Hershey bears. And that isn’t about volume of draft picks, it’s about developing the draft picks. It was the one thing botterill had correct and it was the first thing Adams blew up (the amerks)

You said that having this many picks is not a successful strategy. You based your conclusion on the fact that the Caps won the cup 12 years after they made those picks. Your exact words were:

Hording picks and players is not a successful strategy.

I pointed out that after their hording, the Capitals won their division 10 of the next 13 years and came in 2nd twice out of the other three years, and you are telling me that there is no correlation to any of it?

Look at the kings. They stockpiled picks and prospects until they were back in the playoffs two years in a row. Then they moved a ton of assets to bring in the final pieces and they won multiple cups.

Look at he Blackhawks. Stockpiled picks and prospects, signed a couple of top free agents, and made a few tweaks, but horded their assets. won multiple cups.

Colorado. Horded picks and prospects, and only traded a couple of late 2nds for long term help in 8 years. Didn't make any big rental moves until the year they won the cup.

These lists go on.

Then look at the Sabres. Kept trading 1st round picks, trying to take the impatient route. Never made the playoffs. Now you want to try the same failed strategy again?

 

[Chainshot]

Lol. I point out all but one cup champ didn’t near the same volume of picks the Sabres did (and for the record, the caps didn’t do it for a 3rd straight year) and you suddenly correlate it to years of success?

If you want to see the reason for the caps success, look at the Hershey bears. And that isn’t about volume of draft picks, it’s about developing the draft picks. It was the one thing botterill had correct and it was the first thing Adams blew up (the amerks)

Wait, wait, wait... Botterill did what with the picks and the Amerks? The guy who kept Mittelstadt and Thompson up for a year even though they were both clearly not ready... THAT guy? Nah.

 

[Gabrielor]

Lol. I point out all but one cup champ didn’t near the same volume of picks the Sabres did (and for the record, the caps didn’t do it for a 3rd straight year) and you suddenly correlate it to years of success?

If you want to see the reason for the caps success, look at the Hershey bears. And that isn’t about volume of draft picks, it’s about developing the draft picks. It was the one thing botterill had correct and it was the first thing Adams blew up (the amerks)

Yeah, jesus, let me tell you about the Botterill Amerks success method. Trades an established NHL player (Deslauriers) for an AHL only dman (Redmond).

2 1st round sweeps are this playoff record under Botts. They developed, delivered to Buf...

Well jeez, none of these guys...that's a pile of busts that never developed into anything...


Meanwhile Adams has a play-in playoff round win, and a 1st round win. Also, 2 tangibly developed guys he drafted in the NHL (Peterka, Quinn) and 2 more coming (Rosen, Kulich).

So in summary, no, Botterill didn't know what the f*** he was doing in the AHL.

 

[Zman5778]

Wait, wait, wait... Botterill did what with the picks and the Amerks? The guy who kept Mittelstadt and Thompson up for a year even though they were both clearly not ready... THAT guy? Nah.

Nor to mention that Hershey is largely successful because Washington fills the team with good, established AHL players. Washington's farm system has been very very sparse for 5 years or so.

 

[Djp]

He has made 22 draft picks the last two seasons. We already have so many prospects we likely will lose some for nothing due to the contract limit in a few years. The fact that he’s even talking about ‘not wasting draft capital’ is just code for ‘I’m not doing shit’. Whether it’s a budget issue or a competence issue at this point, it doesn’t matter. I’d be shocked if we spend a 7th at this point.

these 21 and 22 draft picks stsrt their contracts between 23/24 and 24/26and then go for 3 years. Some players get promoyptedvto Sabres.

because of contract limit issues is why teams tend to do college/Europe picks in 3rd-7th because their ELCs don’t start fir 3 or 4 years instead of 3 for CHL

i do expect some trades to occur among the prospects, just not now.

We have 25 players under contract next year.

16 of those are NHL players.

We have essentially no d-men under contract for rochester and have options on several forwards.

Oh and no goalies for the ahl either

If you assume you will add 6 nhl contracts, 3 ahl d contracts, and 3 ahl forward contracts, and 1 goalie, that’s 38 contracts. we have 17 unsigned prospects from the last two draft classes. And we have TEN more picks this year.

We are going to lose guys. Whether it’s due to the 50 contract limit or simply over flooding Rochester with prospects and not having the room for even AHL ice time. There is such a thing as too many prospects and we are already there BEFORE this draft where we have 10 picks. And this is just sheer volume, not even counting that nearly all our prospects are forwards.

Any talk of wanting to persevere draft capital at this point is either a profound misunderstanding of the limits of the NHL development system or simply repeating meaningless talking points to cover a lack of financial commitment from ownership.

let me know when the sky hits the ground….

yes you can have too many prospects which can hurt development. It just depends on how they enter the system in a staggered way.
then after development some players may be worth more than where they were drafted.

Nor to mention that Hershey is largely successful because Washington fills the team with good, established AHL players. Washington's farm system has been very very sparse for 5 years or so.

i agree…Hershey is a very bad example and not something to compare too.

 

[Dubi Doo]

Wait, wait, wait... Botterill did what with the picks and the Amerks? The guy who kept Mittelstadt and Thompson up for a year even though they were both clearly not ready... THAT guy? Nah.

Which players developed under Botterill? Adams has done a much better job developing talent. You may argue the results of the youth movement in the standings, but the kids have been placed in big roles and have thrived.

That's a funny comment considering Quinn and Peterka developed as well as any rookie that I can remember since the 05-06 core played in the ROC. Also, the Amerks actually won a couple of series in the playoffs.

 

[TehDoak]

You said that having this many picks is not a successful strategy. You based your conclusion on the fact that the Caps won the cup 12 years after they made those picks. Your exact words were:

Hording picks and players is not a successful strategy.

I pointed out that after their hording, the Capitals won their division 10 of the next 13 years and came in 2nd twice out of the other three years, and you are telling me that there is no correlation to any of it?

Look at the kings. They stockpiled picks and prospects until they were back in the playoffs two years in a row. Then they moved a ton of assets to bring in the final pieces and they won multiple cups.

Look at he Blackhawks. Stockpiled picks and prospects, signed a couple of top free agents, and made a few tweaks, but horded their assets. won multiple cups.

Colorado. Horded picks and prospects, and only traded a couple of late 2nds for long term help in 8 years. Didn't make any big rental moves until the year they won the cup.

These lists go on.

Then look at the Sabres. Kept trading 1st round picks, trying to take the impatient route. Never made the playoffs. Now you want to try the same failed strategy again?

Yawn. You are looking at the exception rather than what EVERY SINGLE OTHER CUP WINNERS HAVE DONE. Not sure why this has become a thing. Hoarding picks to the level Adams has isn't going to produce more NHLers. It's just going to create a giant prospect logjam of mediocrity because....

Wait, wait, wait... Botterill did what with the picks and the Amerks? The guy who kept Mittelstadt and Thompson up for a year even though they were both clearly not ready... THAT guy? Nah.

Yeah, jesus, let me tell you about the Botterill Amerks success method. Trades an established NHL player (Deslauriers) for an AHL only dman (Redmond).

2 1st round sweeps are this playoff record under Botts. They developed, delivered to Buf...
View attachment 658182

Well jeez, none of these guys...that's a pile of busts that never developed into anything...


Meanwhile Adams has a play-in playoff round win, and a 1st round win. Also, 2 tangibly developed guys he drafted in the NHL (Peterka, Quinn) and 2 more coming (Rosen, Kulich).

So in summary, no, Botterill didn't know what the f*** he was doing in the AHL.

at Hershey is largely successful because Washington fills the team with good, established AHL players. Washington's farm system has been very very sparse for 5 years or so.

....You can only develop so many players in the AHL at a time. Successful AHL teams typically are VETERAN TEAMS. Botterill f***ed up lots of stuff at the NHL level....but he did build a successful AHL team

Rochester Americans hockey team statistics and history at hockeydb.com

Historical facts and data about the Rochester Americans hockey team of the AHL, including players, standings, logos, and game program images.

www.hockeydb.com

The Amerks under Botterill's management were clearly a better product than they are under Adams.

It should also be pointed out that the Hershey Bears success was parallel to the Capitals. As was Syracuse Crunch's success was parallel to Tampa's. And Pittsburgh/Wilkes Barre. And Detroit/Grand Rapids. Toronto and the Marlies.

The whole point before we got sidetracked on this stupid f***ing tangent is that hoarding picks isn't a pathway to success. The fact that the model franchise in the NHL has gone the 'f*** those picks' should tell you something of the value of volume of draft picks.

Developing players through a successful AHL team is the proper way. But that means there is a limit to how many young players can develop through a single AHL team at a time.

these 21 and 22 draft picks stsrt their contracts between 23/24 and 24/26and then go for 3 years. Some players get promoyptedvto Sabres.

because of contract limit issues is why teams tend to do college/Europe picks in 3rd-7th because their ELCs don’t start fir 3 or 4 years instead of 3 for CHL

i do expect some trades to occur among the prospects, just not now.


let me know when the sky hits the ground….

yes you can have too many prospects which can hurt development. It just depends on how they enter the system in a staggered way.
then after development some players may be worth more than where they were drafted.


i agree…Hershey is a very bad example and not something to compare too.

The fact that we are lined up for TEN more picks this year and Adams is out in pressers talking about the sanctity of our precious draft capital is what set this whole thing off. It reinforces the idea there is a lack of any real strategy to building and being successful other than 'draft draft draft'.

 

[Gabrielor]

"The Amerks under Botterill's management were clearly a better product than they are under Adams."

and your proof is....

Don't worry though, you have Adams making this a playoff team to look forward to while somehow arguing "Botterill would've done this faster!"

 

[WhereAreTheCookies]

Lol. I point out all but one cup champ didn’t near the same volume of picks the Sabres did (and for the record, the caps didn’t do it for a 3rd straight year) and you suddenly correlate it to years of success?

Using recent cup winners as some sort of measuring stick to build a winning team is a fools errand. Guess what else those cup winners did? They got guys like MacKinnon, Landeskog, Makar, Rantanen, Stamkos, Hedman, Crosby, Malkin, Kane, Toews, Ovechkin, and Backstrom. A bunch of top 5 picks, mostly top 2 and some of the best players in the league for many years.

Perhaps Buffalo should emulate the Lightning, they just need to find themselves a Kucherov in the 2nd round, or a Point, Cirelli or Killorn in the 3rd, oh and draft a goalie who becomes one of the best in the world. Easy peasy.

Most of those teams didn't add big pieces at the trade deadline until they became relevant. They added in the offseasons when they saw the team started finding success. But they were primarily built through the draft.

I suppose we could say Carolina is doing it wrong also. 2019 - 12 picks, 2020 - 8 picks, 2021 - 13 picks, and 9 of those picks in that 3 year stretch were in the top 2 rounds. 33 picks in 3 years, why are they hoarding them?

 

[TehDoak]

Circling back to actual rental ideas:

Derek Grant would make a ton of sense if they wanted the pure rental route. Would be cheap, fills a role, immediate improvement on PK and Faceoffs. I *think* that would probably end someone on waivers (Hino again or Jost).