Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

[The Real JT]

The question that’s running around my brain this random Monday is “Has Lou made up his mind regarding being a buyer or seller at the TDL?”

I have to think that he will sell even if we were to win the next couple of games. I’d say one of Nelson, Pageau or Cizikas will be dealt. He’ll hold onto Nelson until at least the offseason unless there’s an overpayment.

Disclaimer: I may be wrong, but never in doubt.

 

[Torrey Redux]

Well, you can see it like that, but you can't actually see it like that.

Not if you wish to be sincere.

You're basically saying that it was all gonna happen with Snow anyway. That takes all the culture-changing that took place with Lou - probably about the BIGGEST difference in his being GM entailed - out of the equation.

There's simply no taking away from the fact that a team under Snow and with Tavares didn't come close to achieving what Lamoriello did with more or less that same group - sans Tavares.

I mean, Year 1 = Round 2 of the playoffs. Years 2 and 3, as wild as they were due to the Corona situation, end up = the Conference final, actually improving on that in each of those seasons (Game 6 loss turns into Game 7 1-0 loss).

That simply can in no way whatsoever be taken away from Lou's GMing of this team. That happened under his watch and there's never any telling if all those players drafted and acquired by his predecessor would ever come close to achieving what they did had it not come under his watch and with his guidance.

None.

You're a highly respected poster and you should be because you always maintain a civil tone and you make solid arguments for your point of view but spare us the "we're sincere" if we see it this way but anyone who sees it differently isn't, particularly on subjective matters.

Year 1= Great year, surprise the NHL, make the playoffs, sweep a round, then get swept.
Year 2= Decline from year 1, lose 7 in a row during the height of the playoff race to fall out of a playoff spot and then Covid hits. Luck into playoffs because of Covid and make the most of it but still ultimately lose.
Year 3= Improve from previous year and make unusual playoffs and make the most of it. Just as that juggernaut MTL did to make it even further than the Isles. It was great and entertaining but not proof of team greatness in any way shape or form. Nonetheless, Lou doubles down on thinking team is great. Signs a bunch of ill-advised contracts.
Year 4= Team misses playoffs.
Year 5= Barely make playoffs, bounced easily in first round.
Year 6= You tell me?

That's the true record of the Lamoriello/Trotz/Lane years. Not crazily better than the Capuano 2013 - 2016 years if looked at objectively, and Cap was working with shit ownership, a shit building and a shit GM. People want to say that LL brought respectability and maybe, but that was really about ownership with deep pockets and commitment, not Lamoriello.

Lamoriello has been average at best and will leave this franchise from a player personnel standpoint worse than he found it with no tremendous accomplishments on the ice that weren't Covid aided. The years that weren't, again, you tell me?

 

[PK Cronin]

I'm all aboard the 'Lou has failed' train currently.

That cannot be applied to what he did at the time. I don't care that those COVID affected seasons did the NYI favors and could be considered asterisk'd, Lou did the job to his best ability at the time. We were ecstatic when JGP and Palmieri were acquired. Nobody can take that away, regardless of how much Lou is hated at this point in time.

I hate the polarization of all things. We need to love Lou or hate him, we're not allowed to be in the middle at all.

People can think he's not the right man for the job moving forward without trying to shit all over everything he's ever done. Situations change, players progress and decline, so do GMs and coaches, and that's okay.

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

I hate the polarization of all things. We need to love Lou or hate him, we're not allowed to be in the middle at all.

People can think he's not the right man for the job moving forward without trying to shit all over everything he's ever done. Situations change, players progress and decline, so do GMs and coaches, and that's okay.

"You're either with me, or against me." The Dark Side has taken over the world as we know it.

As my guy Cody Jinks has to say - "somewhere in the middle is just fine."

 

[Torrey Redux]

On the DFO Rundown, Isles discussed from 3:30 to 10:30.

From my perspective, spot on.

The DFO Rundown Ep. 281 – The Market for Jake Guentzel & the Isles big decision

We are less than two weeks away from the NHL trade deadline and the market is still remarkably quiet. Jason...

www.dailyfaceoff.com

 

[PK Cronin]

You're a highly respected poster and you should be because you always maintain a civil tone and you make solid arguments for your point of view but spare us the "we're sincere" if we see it this way but anyone who sees it differently isn't, particularly on subjective matters.

Year 1= Great year, surprise the NHL, make the playoffs, sweep a round, then get swept.
Year 2= Decline from year 1, lose 7 in a row during the height of the playoff race to fall out of a playoff spot and then Covid hits. Luck into playoffs because of Covid and make the most of it but still ultimately lose.
Year 3= Improve from previous year and make unusual playoffs and make the most of it. Just as that juggernaut MTL did to make it even further than the Isles. It was great and entertaining but not proof of team greatness in any way shape or form. Nonetheless, Lou doubles down on thinking team is great. Signs a bunch of ill-advised contracts.
Year 4= Team misses playoffs.
Year 5= Barely make playoffs, bounced easily in first round.
Year 6= You tell me?

That's the true record of the Lamoriello/Trotz/Lane years. Not crazily better than the Capuano 2013 - 2016 years if looked at objectively, and Cap was working with shit ownership, a shit building and a shit GM. People want to say that LL brought respectability and maybe, but that was really about ownership with deep pockets and commitment, not Lamoriello.

Lamoriello has been average at best and will leave this franchise from a player personnel standpoint worse than he found it with no tremendous accomplishments on the ice that weren't Covid aided. The years that weren't, again, you tell me?

Lamoriello won as many playoff series in his first season as Capuano and Snow had their entire time at the helm of the Islanders.

Year 1 the team had the best regular season I've ever seen as a fan who is in their mid 30s. Then they won a playoff round.

Year 2 was a decline in the regular season for sure but they didn't "luck into" the playoffs. They were the 7th best team in the East in terms of points percentage, which is the only accurate way to read the standings that has differing amount of games played. They made it to the ECF after having to play an additional abbreviated playoff round too. In the second and third round they knocked off the #3 (Washington) and #1 (Philadelphia) seeds.

Year 3 they actually had a higher points percentage than in year 1 but finished fourth in the East. They knocked off the #1 seed (Pittsburgh) and then the #3 seed (Boston). Comparing their path to the ECF to Montreal isn't fair. Montreal made the playoffs because the Canadian division was weak, while the East was actually strong. Montreal's point percentage that year was worse than the Islanders the year prior and they were the 18th best team in the league with Dallas and the Rags finishing above them in the standings but not making the playoffs due to stronger divisions.

Year 4 was just bad, but were plagued with having to play a bunch of games with AHL players making up a massive chunk of the roster, something no other team had to endure. It's not excusing the poor season, but it played a factor for sure.

Year 5 they sneak into the playoffs and get knocked out in the first round.

The Islanders have made the playoffs 4 out of 5 years with Lamoriello at the helm, making the ECF twice, while adding key players at the deadline multiple times and rotating through three different starting goaltenders. The way you're framing those seasons is in a way to try and diminish what they were and there's just no reason to do that. Past success doesn't guarantee future success so we don't need to shit on the past to say it's time to move on now.

 

[Throttle]

You're a highly respected poster and you should be because you always maintain a civil tone and you make solid arguments for your point of view but spare us the "we're sincere" if we see it this way but anyone who sees it differently isn't, particularly on subjective matters.

Year 1= Great year, surprise the NHL, make the playoffs, sweep a round, then get swept.
Year 2= Decline from year 1, lose 7 in a row during the height of the playoff race to fall out of a playoff spot and then Covid hits. Luck into playoffs because of Covid and make the most of it but still ultimately lose.
Year 3= Improve from previous year and make unusual playoffs and make the most of it. Just as that juggernaut MTL did to make it even further than the Isles. It was great and entertaining but not proof of team greatness in any way shape or form. Nonetheless, Lou doubles down on thinking team is great. Signs a bunch of ill-advised contracts.
Year 4= Team misses playoffs.
Year 5= Barely make playoffs, bounced easily in first round.
Year 6= You tell me?

That's the true record of the Lamoriello/Trotz/Lane years. Not crazily better than the Capuano 2013 - 2016 years if looked at objectively, and Cap was working with shit ownership, a shit building and a shit GM. People want to say that LL brought respectability and maybe, but that was really about ownership with deep pockets and commitment, not Lamoriello.

Lamoriello has been average at best and will leave this franchise from a player personnel standpoint worse than he found it with no tremendous accomplishments on the ice that weren't Covid aided. The years that weren't, again, you tell me?

Seems to me as the team went unleashed and tilted more towards a bunch individual performances, the team result has suffered.

 

[Torrey Redux]

Lamoriello won as many playoff series in his first season as Capuano and Snow had their entire time at the helm of the Islanders.

Year 1 the team had the best regular season I've ever seen as a fan who is in their mid 30s. Then they won a playoff round.

Year 2 was a decline in the regular season for sure but they didn't "luck into" the playoffs. They were the 7th best team in the East in terms of points percentage, which is the only accurate way to read the standings that has differing amount of games played. They made it to the ECF after having to play an additional abbreviated playoff round too. In the second and third round they knocked off the #3 (Washington) and #1 (Philadelphia) seeds.

Year 3 they actually had a higher points percentage than in year 1 but finished fourth in the East. They knocked off the #1 seed (Pittsburgh) and then the #3 seed (Boston). Comparing their path to the ECF to Montreal isn't fair. Montreal made the playoffs because the Canadian division was weak, while the East was actually strong. Montreal's point percentage that year was worse than the Islanders the year prior and they were the 18th best team in the league with Dallas and the Rags finishing above them in the standings but not making the playoffs due to stronger divisions.

Year 4 was just bad, but were plagued with having to play a bunch of games with AHL players making up a massive chunk of the roster, something no other team had to endure. It's not excusing the poor season, but it played a factor for sure.

Year 5 they sneak into the playoffs and get knocked out in the first round.

The Islanders have made the playoffs 4 out of 5 years with Lamoriello at the helm, making the ECF twice, while adding key players at the deadline multiple times and rotating through three different starting goaltenders. The way you're framing those seasons is in a way to try and diminish what they were and there's just no reason to do that. Past success doesn't guarantee future success so we don't need to shit on the past to say it's time to move on now.

We've had this discussion before. I will not move you from your point of view, and you won't move me from mine. All I would say in response is that, again, what has happened in the past has an impact on what happens in the future, and so if you buy, as you most certainly do, that the ECF runs should be treated as any other season and as significant accomplishments, my response would be that how Lou has attempted to build on those "accomplishments" has been a complete failure and has left the Isles with no cap room, bad contracts and a decimated farm system. If you feel that that is a fair return for those runs then so be it because, short of another pandemic, we won't be seeing anything like them again any time soon.

 

[PK Cronin]

On the DFO Rundown, Isles discussed from 3:30 to 10:30.

From my perspective, spot on.

The DFO Rundown Ep. 281 – The Market for Jake Guentzel & the Isles big decision

We are less than two weeks away from the NHL trade deadline and the market is still remarkably quiet. Jason...

www.dailyfaceoff.com

The only thing wrong with their assessment is that the Islanders can't score and that they're known as a defensive team, which isn't the case this year. We've seen enough of this team, and now enough of the team with Barzal and Horvat together to know that it's not going to work out so changes need to happen. Moving Nelson makes sense because he's going to add assets and clear cap space. I'd move Clutterbuck and Martin if there were any market for them, but I don't see Lamoriello doing that to either of them if they don't want to move (which would be a really big problem).

I don't see Cizikas or Lee being traded yet.

We've had this discussion before. I will not move you from your point of view, and you won't move me from mine. All I would say in response is that, again, what has happened in the past has an impact on what happens in the future, and so if you buy, as you most certainly do, that the ECF runs should be treated as any other season and as significant accomplishments, my response would be that how Lou has attempted to build on those "accomplishments" has been a complete failure and has left the Isles with no cap room, bad contracts and a decimated farm system. If you feel that that is a fair return for those runs then so be it because, short of another pandemic, we won't be seeing anything like them again any time soon.

That's all anyone should be bringing up. Trying to invalidate what did happen is a complete waste of time. Talking about the bolded is the real conversation because that's where we can decide whether or not Lamoriello is doing a good job at the current stage, and the answer for me is that while he's done some nice things (Horvat, Romanov) he hasn't done enough.

I'm not calling for his head personally but I will if he doesn't make some of the changes to the roster I'd like to see. Clutterbuck and Martin have to go, Palmieri, Nelson, Pageau, and Lee need to be shaken up in some way as well. I don't see the defense becoming much different though.

 

[Torrey Redux]

The only thing wrong with their assessment is that the Islanders can't score and that they're known as a defensive team, which isn't the case this year. We've seen enough of this team, and now enough of the team with Barzal and Horvat together to know that it's not going to work out so changes need to happen. Moving Nelson makes sense because he's going to add assets and clear cap space. I'd move Clutterbuck and Martin if there were any market for them, but I don't see Lamoriello doing that to either of them if they don't want to move (which would be a really big problem).

I don't see Cizikas or Lee being traded yet.

Yes, that's true. That misread remains in the media everywhere.

 

[TeamKidd]

It's obvious this team is done.

I'm still having a hard time seeing how LL turns around and sells though. He said as much a few days ago. Even if we do sell, it's not a quick fix. there is almost zero in the pipeline right now, and even with 'restocking the farm' we'll still have a shitty farm. then if we go into free agency to fix our problems...well....seems likely we'll be right back in cap hell and not much improved.

The right thing is to sell, draft well this year AND next year and then build smartly with elite prospects, good trades and a sprinkle of short term FA signings. I just dont see LL doing it. I just dont.

 

[Tres Peleches]

The core has run its course. Had its opportunities and failed.

There is still a young nucleus there you can win with, but there’s not enough behind it coming up to warrant not selling

They had their shot, but was shot down by cap-circumventing, too many men on the ice Lightning teams

 

[PK Cronin]

It's obvious this team is done.

I'm still having a hard time seeing how LL turns around and sells though. He said as much a few days ago. Even if we do sell, it's not a quick fix. there is almost zero in the pipeline right now, and even with 'restocking the farm' we'll still have a shitty farm. then if we go into free agency to fix our problems...well....seems likely we'll be right back in cap hell and not much improved.

The right thing is to sell, draft well this year AND next year and then build smartly with elite prospects, good trades and a sprinkle of short term FA signings. I just dont see LL doing it. I just dont.

I don't buy what GMs say in the media all that much. How often do they give the quote that their coach is safe and then turn around and can them a week or two later? Happens every season multiple times.

As for the fix, I think it starts with alleviating the cap by moving a top 6 player and by reimagining the bottom six. That can be done pretty quickly. I'm a fan of trying to take on change of scenery types because they don't cost as much to acquire. There aren't a ton of UFAs who make this team better in the long term.

We have to hope that a full off-season of Roy can make an impact too. There might just be a down year or two while they re-tool.

 

[MJF]

Andy Greene apparently stunk too.

Andy Greene did stink. And not just from his sweaty gear.

And we're not allowed to remember Lehner, then letting Lehner walk in favor of Varlamov which netted the team Sorokin too. Andy Greene apparently stunk too.

Since the team didn't win the cup we're not allowed to applaud any of the moves that were done. If we do, we're drinking the Kool Aid and "In Lou We Trust" camp. It's the same tired people or new accounts trotting out the same Lou is shit and has always been shit schtick all of the time, it's tiresome.

It’s cool to be the ones who said “I was against Lou right from the start.”

However, the team really went south with Lou pertty fast. It only took 3 seasons before the downturn.

 

[MJF]

I'm all aboard the 'Lou has failed' train currently.

That cannot be applied to what he did at the time. I don't care that those COVID affected seasons did the NYI favors and could be considered asterisk'd, Lou did the job to his best ability at the time. We were ecstatic when JGP and Palmieri were acquired. Nobody can take that away, regardless of how much Lou is hated at this point in time.

The problem for Lou came after COVID when he couldn’t build on the momentum the team had. By 2021-22 he wasn’t able to improve the team, for a variety of reasons.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

You're a highly respected poster and you should be because you always maintain a civil tone and you make solid arguments for your point of view but spare us the "we're sincere" if we see it this way but anyone who sees it differently isn't, particularly on subjective matters.

Year 1= Great year, surprise the NHL, make the playoffs, sweep a round, then get swept.
Year 2= Decline from year 1, lose 7 in a row during the height of the playoff race to fall out of a playoff spot and then Covid hits. Luck into playoffs because of Covid and make the most of it but still ultimately lose.
Year 3= Improve from previous year and make unusual playoffs and make the most of it. Just as that juggernaut MTL did to make it even further than the Isles. It was great and entertaining but not proof of team greatness in any way shape or form. Nonetheless, Lou doubles down on thinking team is great. Signs a bunch of ill-advised contracts.
Year 4= Team misses playoffs.
Year 5= Barely make playoffs, bounced easily in first round.
Year 6= You tell me?

That's the true record of the Lamoriello/Trotz/Lane years. Not crazily better than the Capuano 2013 - 2016 years if looked at objectively, and Cap was working with shit ownership, a shit building and a shit GM. People want to say that LL brought respectability and maybe, but that was really about ownership with deep pockets and commitment, not Lamoriello.

Lamoriello has been average at best and will leave this franchise from a player personnel standpoint worse than he found it with no tremendous accomplishments on the ice that weren't Covid aided. The years that weren't, again, you tell me?

This post is bananas. I love how you dismiss the 6 playoff series wins and two ECF appearances as simply "making the most of it." lol And then have the gall to compare it to the Capuano years. JFC.

You attribute the two playoff runs to COVID yet don't even mention it as being a factor in the non-playoff year of 21/22.

Whatever...

 

[Torrey Redux]

And we're not allowed to remember Lehner, then letting Lehner walk in favor of Varlamov which netted the team Sorokin too. Andy Greene apparently stunk too.

Since the team didn't win the cup we're not allowed to applaud any of the moves that were done. If we do, we're drinking the Kool Aid and "In Lou We Trust" camp. It's the same tired people or new accounts trotting out the same Lou is shit and has always been shit schtick all of the time, it's tiresome.

I'm sorry, but this is total horseshit. Winning the cup may be the ultimate determinant of success, but isn't the only one, and is less so seemingly every year as the league expands. For GMs (and for me), it's building a sustainably competitive team that doesn't just have a chance to make the playoffs, but has a chance to go deep year after year over a long period of time. That does not describe the Islanders. Dress it up any way you want, somehow the Isles have only had deep runs during the Covid years and haven't been a real threat at any other time during Lou's tenure. There are plenty of us for whom this is not recency bias but our POV from the day he arrived, that he was buying into a roster that was good, but was never that good and not worthy of the investments he was making.

 

[Torrey Redux]

This post is bananas. I love how you dismiss the 6 playoff series wins and two ECF appearances as simply "making the most of it." lol And then have the gall to compare it to the Capuano years. JFC.

You attribute the two playoff runs to COVID yet don't even mention it as being a factor in the non-playoff year of 21/22.

Whatever...

You can have your POV that Covid was irrelevant to the Isles success and I will respect but disagree with it, but you can't pick and choose which years it mattered and which years it didn't. That I don't respect.

 

[duster19]

The core has run its course. Had its opportunities and failed.

There is still a young nucleus there you can win with, but there’s not enough behind it coming up to warrant not selling

They had their shot, but was shot down by cap-circumventing, too many men on the ice Lightning teams

I agree. They need some form of change. The roster just isn’t responding anymore. On paper they look ok - esp on D and in net - but on ice it isn’t working. Players that used to be the reason for success are the opposite now. We need to change. It will mean hard decisions as it means moving players that were responsible for past success and are part of the ‘core’ . I but it will be for the best in the end if done right. There are lots of ways to win in the NHL and lots of good players. We need to shake things up.

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

The problem for Lou came after COVID when he couldn’t build on the momentum the team had. By 2021-22 he wasn’t able to improve the team, for a variety of reasons.

Hindsight is 20/20 (see what I did there?). Lou incorrectly believed that that team could continue to compete the same way over an 82 game stretch + playoffs (without the summer long COVID layoff in 2020) and against the entire league (not that Metro games only nonsense in 2021).

Both you and I are on the record before this season that the time for the retool should have been after missing the playoffs in 2022. Opportunity missed and now he's under more pressure than ever (fans & contractual).

 

[Doshell Propivo]

You can have your POV that Covid was irrelevant to the Isles success and I will respect but disagree with it, but you can't pick and choose which years it mattered and which years it didn't. That I don't respect.

You're the one picking and choosing.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

The core has run its course. Had its opportunities and failed.

There is still a young nucleus there you can win with, but there’s not enough behind it coming up to warrant not selling

They had their shot, but was shot down by cap-circumventing, too many men on the ice Lightning teams

The current core also includes, Sorokin, Romanov, Dobson, Horvat. None of them were part of the core during the PO runs.

 

[Torrey Redux]

You're the one picking and choosing.

How do you figure? This was a team coming off of an ECF and were being touted as a true Cup contender by the folks here. They had a long road trip to start and came out of it close to .500 with plenty of time and supposed a great team with lots of home games to come. They got screwed in a couple of games with sick players but in the end they missed the playoffs by 16 f**king pts. Who's picking and choosing again?

 

[PK Cronin]

Andy Greene did stink. And not just from his sweaty gear.

Much like the team, he was great until he wasn't anymore and the wheels fell off.

 

[MJF]

There are plenty of us for whom this is not recency bias but our POV from the day he arrived, that he was buying into a roster that was good, but was never that good and not worthy of the investments he was making.

I'm in agreement with your post up until this sentence.