Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

[SI]

I think the general consensus was that the deals were too long. I certainly said as much. But, seriously, these are hardly millstone contracts. They are not things preventing the team from doing things. On the other hand, the Lee contract and to a lesser extent the Pageau one are not great. You have a handful expiring contracts this year and next. The team can make adjustments. This argument that the team is stuck has no merit, IMO. Most of the "burn it down" talk is reactionary and irrational. There's an argument to be made for it, but most of the posts I've seen are just bloviated nonsense or ideological claptrap.

Back-to- back great posts

 

[SRBisles]

Seravalli on DFO rundown listed the Islanders as one of the suitors for Hanifin, but says he’s heard he ultimately wants to sign in Tampa

 

[doublechili]

The “burn it down” talk is hyperbole. Sure there are a few here with that mentality but the majority of Lou doubters believe we have a core of talented players that should not be traded. I’ll add that there are an equal and possibly greater number of posters here that see any suggestion of retooling or trading for futures as equivalent to a “burn it down” mentality. That’s just not true.

Just to be clear, it has always been rebuild vs. retool as the debate. There has been a contingent here for a number of years now that has advocated a tear down rebuild. Going back to before extending Sorokin - some advocated trading him, and others apparently didn't consider the reality that he'd have left as a UFA (probably to Devs?) if the Isles started wholesale selling off assets for picks. As for the "core of talented players that should not be traded", does that include Horvat and Romanov? That would be ironic since those acquisitions were criticized by many when they happened.

Speaking only for myself, I've said all along that there was too much good talent on the roster to warrant the extreme measure of a tear down rebuild, and that teams need to constantly retool in a salary cap world.

It's not hyperbole if some people have that mentality. I never said everyone had it. Just a vocal minority that seem to plane in whenever something happens that allows them to rage against the dying of the light.

Good post.

 

[leeroggy]

The contract discussion in hindsight is relative long-term but looking at the present season, it doesn't answer questions about some of the players that are on the hook for poor performances or poor decision making.

JGP numbers are deceptive. He has lost many crucial late game faceoffs. Deploying him in some instances has been puzzling. Offensively he is a blackhole. He has routinely been used on the PK and in OT.

Mayfield on the PK has been a disaster since early in the season. He is not a smart man but he is performing at a ridiculously low level. Mental mistakes exacerbated by a physical limitation? Perhaps. He was never fleet of foot but he is really laboring. 7 vs 5 years wouldn't change that.

Dobson is an offensive force but I feel he was performing better during the injuries to Pulock and Pelech injuries.Perhaps skill vs skill suited him better. Houda is a problem here.

Speaking of Houda, he is a part of the problem. A big one.

Czikas being somewhat marginalized is problem. I'd rather have him in some instances over JGP.

Bottom 6 wingers generate absolutely nothing offensively. Engvall more of a third liner than second. Tatar or maybe Duclair would have been a good add.

Just some thoughts.

The reason Tatar bounces around is because he goes on lengthy goal less droughts
He's also a 3rd liner
Engvall, for about the 10th time, is on the 2nd line because neither Nelson nor Palmieri are feeders and someone has to do it

 

[Torrey Redux]

I think the general consensus was that the deals were too long. I certainly said as much. But, seriously, these are hardly millstone contracts. They are not things preventing the team from doing things. On the other hand, the Lee contract and to a lesser extent the Pageau one are not great. You have a handful expiring contracts this year and next. The team can make adjustments. This argument that the team is stuck has no merit, IMO. Most of the "burn it down" talk is reactionary and irrational. There's an argument to be made for it, but most of the posts I've seen are just bloviated nonsense or ideological claptrap.

The only bloviated nonsense is this kind of fantastical thinking. The six contracts that expire this year amount to a total of $6.8M. So for that princely sum our GM is going to head out to the open market and find six players who will take this team from a perennial marginal playoff team to the next level? Good luck with that. Oh, but wait, the cap is going up! And so is Sorokin's contract. In fact, his increase is going to take up the entire Cap increase. All of it. So where are these improvements that you think are so doable coming from? You gonna move all the guys with NTCs and contracts that are already overpays and get better players in return even if they agree to move? How does that work? You gonna trade away even more draft picks to further cement in place one of the worst farm systems in the league already? And you call out others for bloviated nonsense? You and all of the people who think that there is some magical creative fix don't have a clue beyond wishful thinking.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

The only bloviated nonsense is this kind of fantastical thinking.

If you don't think there's ways to maneuver here, your thinking is limited.

 

[IslesNorway]

The thing is, they can be excised or dealt with individually to stem the dripping. It's not a massive singular problem. It's a collection of relatively minor ones.

If there was only a couple of deals I’d agree, but they now have Mayfield, Engvall, Pulock, Pelech, Sorokin, Varlamov, Barzal, Horvat and Cizikas on long term deals. Add Dobson’s and Romanov’s next deals to those as well for good measure. No team will trade for any of those players at anything resembling real value except maybe Sorokin. Sure, you can move them but not for a good return unless you’re moving Dobson or Romanov which makes no sense.

Now, we also have Lee and Pageau to add to the mix. They are not easy to move without giving up assets to do so.

We have no farm to speak of and no real top prospects in the pipeline. The Isles defence will still be the same players five years from now, only older, slower, worn down and worse with no value at all.

It’s not little drips but a steady stream of bad decisions that will haunt us for years.

 

[Torrey Redux]

If you don't think there's ways to maneuver here, your thinking is limited.

Yes it is, it's limited to facts and numbers. Yours is limited as well, to hope and crossed fingers.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

The Isles defence will still be the same players five years from now, only older, slower, worn down and worse with no value at all.

A lot happens in 5 years. Those players are good now and if one needs to be moved to accommodate an upgrade, it most likely can be done. The forwards can be adjusted as well. This, more or less, affects every team in the league. This isn't an untenable situation. I get the Lou argument and there's some merit there, especially considering that GM positions tend to get stale after 4-6 years. There's business pressures involved that require consideration as well.

Yes it is, it's limited to facts and numbers. Yours is limited as well, to hope and crossed fingers.

And presidence.

 

[doublechili]

People are dumping on Engvall, and he certainly deserves it for the screw up that other game. However, I have a feeling that he fits in better with what Roy wants to do than a lot of other guys on the team. We'll see though, I guess.

 

[Zeeker]

And presidence.

Lou is President, and there hasn’t been a precedent of him operating well in those situations.

 

[Torrey Redux]

Lou is President, and there hasn’t been a precedent of him operating well in those situations.

Thank you for that. I didn't have the heart.

 

[Zeeker]

People are dumping on Engvall, and he certainly deserves it for the screw up that other game. However, I have a feeling that he fits in better with what Roy wants to do than a lot of other guys on the team. We'll see though, I guess.

I can maybe see it. You only get angry at those you think have more to give, while others you quietly accept if you think they have nothing left.

Thing is, people have been saying this about Engvall for forever, I don’t think the switch will magically flip.

 

[DerekKingSnipes]

If there was only a couple of deals I’d agree, but they now have Mayfield, Engvall, Pulock, Pelech, Sorokin, Varlamov, Barzal, Horvat and Cizikas on long term deals. Add Dobson’s and Romanov’s next deals to those as well for good measure. No team will trade for any of those players at anything resembling real value except maybe Sorokin. Sure, you can move them but not for a good return unless you’re moving Dobson or Romanov which makes no sense.

Now, we also have Lee and Pageau to add to the mix. They are not easy to move without giving up assets to do so.

We have no farm to speak of and no real top prospects in the pipeline. The Isles defence will still be the same players five years from now, only older, slower, worn down and worse with no value at all.

It’s not little drips but a steady stream of bad decisions that will haunt us for years.

I’d buyout Lee, OfferUp Pageau with retained salary as someone will trade for him at deadline. Clutterbuck will be traded I think again probably for a late pick but gives them another dart for organizational depth. 24 draft isn’t best so I’d try and use that pick to see if can get a top six forward under 27 in here also. Roy is here so this is evaluation period also for him and the roster. Clearly roster needs changing, it’s going to happen unless somehow this team wins the next 8 before deadline.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

Lou is President, and there hasn’t been a precedent of him operating well in those situations.

Lol. Autocorrect shot me down.

 

[doublechili]

I can maybe see it. You only get angry at those you think have more to give, while others you quietly accept if you think they have nothing left.

Thing is, people have been saying this about Engvall for forever, I don’t think the switch will magically flip.

I don't expect the aggression switch to flip - that's probably just his nature. But I'm getting the vibe that Roy will want guys who are comfortable with the puck on the stick and who can make plays to retain possession. Despite Engvall's other shortcomings, he actually may fit that better than a number of other guys who were more suited to Trotz' dump and forecheck. But again, we'll see.

 

[Lek]

can you waive someone with a no trade clause?...i am assuming yes, so then if he is claimed?....what happens....he has to go?. Assuming so....waive one or two and see what happens. If we are not anticipating getting much back anyways.....

 

[doublechili]

Clutterbuck will be traded I think again probably for a late pick but gives them another dart for organizational depth. 24 draft isn’t best so I’d try and use that pick to see if can get a top six forward under 27 in here also.

I'll bet Clutterbuck could be traded for a pick that could then be flipped for Barabanov from SJ. He's 29 and a pending UFA so not ideal, but I kind of like him as a player. He's got more skill than a lot of our current wingers.

 

[DerekKingSnipes]

I'll bet Clutterbuck could be traded for a pick that could then be flipped for Barabanov from SJ. He's 29 and a pending UFA so not ideal, but I kind of like him as a player. He's got more skill than a lot of our current wingers.

Yeah I mean isles probably need to address LW on top two lines, Engvall and Holmstrom could fill out third and fourth line. I’m not a big believer in Iskhakov so there isn’t much in system.

 

[Torrey Redux]

can you waive someone with a no trade clause?...i am assuming yes, so then if he is claimed?....what happens....he has to go?. Assuming so....waive one or two and see what happens. If we are not anticipating getting much back anyways.....

Yes, any player can be waived, but if claimed, a player with an NTC still has to approve the move.

 

[MikeyMike01]

The “burn it down” talk is hyperbole. Sure there are a few here with that mentality but the majority of Lou doubters believe we have a core of talented players that should not be traded. I’ll add that there are an equal and possibly greater number of posters here that see any suggestion of retooling or trading for futures as equivalent to a “burn it down” mentality. That’s just not true.

Trading for futures accomplishes nothing, unless you flip those futures for actual NHL players.

 

[Throttle]

If you were the GM how would you approach it?

Just yell rebuild every year until the rebuild works, seems to be in line with the common theme.

The trade deadline is not really the time to remake your team, however, this team needs to start making some personnel changes.

I would make a statement trade now. Trade Nelson bc he shouldn’t be resigned. Don’t wait for the draft or next deadline that’s just dumb. A number of teams will be clamoring for him and can figure out their cap situation in the summer.

I doubt anyone wants JGP with that extra year, but I would find a way to get Giroux, yes, he’s older, but he’s gonna be one motivated son of gun bc his chances of winning in OTT are toast.

Flip Clutter, Martin can stay. Wally can be packaged out, but should stay if you get a Giroux.

Walk from Aho or flip him at the deadline, Riley makes him redundant.

I’ve said long ago to move on from Pulock bc paying him that much for zero offense is not worth the cost.

If Petterssen negotiations go south, give them Barzal, laugh, and say thank you. We’ll pay Petterssen.

On Lee, adjust the way he is used, and you’ll get value out of him. Never gonna get $7M worth of value. That was apparent at the time of signing.

 

[Torrey Redux]

Trading for futures accomplishes nothing, unless you flip those futures for actual NHL players.

Where do you think NHL players come from? A stork?

Every drafted player ever was a "future" at one time and that represents the vast majority of NHL players. Yes, they have to then "make it" and many don't, but you still have to have them and then hopefully develop them. But even beyond that, futures, if they make it, become your cost controlled players, an absolute must in a hard cap league. If you're going to be successful, you have to have at least a few highly productive young players on ELCs.

 

[Throttle]

Where do you think NHL players come from? A stork?

Every drafted player ever was a "future" at one time and that represents the vast majority of NHL players. Yes, they have to then "make it" and many don't, but you still have to have them and then hopefully develop them. But even beyond that, futures, if they make it, become your cost controlled players, an absolute must in a hard cap league. If you're going to be successful, you have to have at least a few highly productive young players on ELCs.

Define success bc since the Covid hard cap came along, what team won the Cup with highly productive young players on ELCs? (It’s zero…).

 

[The Real JT]

Just yell rebuild every year until the rebuild works, seems to be in line with the common theme.

The trade deadline is not really the time to remake your team, however, this team needs to start making some personnel changes.

I would make a statement trade now. Trade Nelson bc he shouldn’t be resigned. Don’t wait for the draft or next deadline that’s just dumb. A number of teams will be clamoring for him and can figure out their cap situation in the summer.

I doubt anyone wants JGP with that extra year, but I would find a way to get Giroux, yes, he’s older, but he’s gonna be one motivated son of gun bc his chances of winning in OTT are toast.

Flip Clutter, Martin can stay. Wally can be packaged out, but should stay if you get a Giroux.

Walk from Aho or flip him at the deadline, Riley makes him redundant.

I’ve said long ago to move on from Pulock bc paying him that much for zero offense is not worth the cost.

If Petterssen negotiations go south, give them Barzal, laugh, and say thank you. We’ll pay Petterssen.

On Lee, adjust the way he is used, and you’ll get value out of him. Never gonna get $7M worth of value. That was apparent at the time of signing.

I have to admit I agree with most but not all of what you say.

Rebuild, rebuild, rebuild may rightfully annoy you but the same can be said for running back a similar yet older squad year after year with a TDL move for a middle six player that costs us yet another first round pick.

The core gave us some thrills and nearly brought home the Cup. Those days are gone and collectively this is a far weaker squad.

A shakeup is needed. That doesn’t mean burn it down.

Draft picks also aren’t inherently worthless. If you think they suck, I say draft better. Way back when, Travis Hamonic was traded purely for draft picks that became Dobson, Ishakov and Bolduc. We may have whiffed on the latter two but that trade was still a great one for us considering the Dobson pick.