Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

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Biggest issue right now…. Barzal playing wing and not being a goal scorer.

In all seriousness, if Barzal was off our roster and someone like Stuztle was on, would we be clamoring for a deal.

As much as I liked the deal at the time (and still believe I will when he pots 30 this year) it wasn’t the right trade for LL (unless he planned on moving a center). Was just another panic move by LL who personally doesn’t have the time for the right deal to come along.
 
If we're using Aho's 9.75m as a benchmark, that would mean Barzal should be paid 8.52m, a difference of 631k from Barzal's 9.15m, so he is overpaid by 6.9% (nice). That doesn't even sound all that bad in the first place.
Is this not the most problematic issue for the Islanders?

Sure, we may not have a Vlasic boat anchor-type contract (yet…) but virtually every player on the team is at least slightly overpaid. Nelson and Sorokin stand out as two decent contracts (and many would argue against paying a goalie that much).

Our dearth of sweetheart deals and lack of ELC help - the two go hand in hand - is killing our cap.

Our underperforming roster is getting older and older, and it’s only a matter of time before one or two of the up and coming teams pull a “Devils”, and we’re well on the outside looking in.
 
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Interesting Stats put together here.
What do you guys think?



Maybe the PP will improve a bit more than we think.

Well, this tells you Barzal is amazing and Aho is not very good. We know that’s not reality. But those stats packs… Aho is a better overall player than Barzal - watching the games demonstrates that.

I would rather have Aho at his new deal vs Barzal under his new deal (and his old deal to boot). Does Carolina have 400 excuses on why Aho ain’t this or that?
 
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I don't think it's really all that damning, tbh.

Looking at total point production over the last 2 seasons, Aho's put up points at a rate of 0.96 pts/gp, whereas Barzal is at 0.84, which means Barzal puts offense up at 87.4% the rate of Aho. If we're using Aho's 9.75m as a benchmark, that would mean Barzal should be paid 8.52m, a difference of 631k from Barzal's 9.15m, so he is overpaid by 6.9% (nice). That doesn't even sound all that bad in the first place.

Then, looking at the actual contracts, Barzal has no protection the first year of his deal and then only has a modified NTC for the remaining 7 years. Barzal also has his contract structured so that he gets straight salary at the same rate each year, so if he were bought out in any year, his caphit over the remaining years would be 3.05m. Aho has a full NMC for the first 7 years of the contract and a modified NTC in the last year. Also, Aho's contract is structured with front loaded pay and with a 2m signing bonus every year, so if a buyout were necessary in the tail end of his contract (the most likely time for it to become necessary) the cap hit would be notably higher.

For example, if Aho had to be bought out at age 32 with 3 years left, the caphits would be 5.04m, 6.44m and 6.44m for the remaining years. Or at 33 with 2 years left, it would be 6.28m for both years. Barzal's cap hit for the years after the scheduled end of the contract would be about 1-1.3m higher (depending on when Aho is bought out), but generally if you are doing a buy out it's because you need the money now, rather than later, making Barzal's the easier contract to buy out. Along with less trade protection allowing him to be traded much more easily, and Aho's NMC making a buyout more likely to be necessary in the event that one's play falters, there are more and better failsafes built into Barzal's contract, IMO. Based on that and the relative production mentioned above, I don't think Barzal's contract looks overpaid compared to Aho's.

But to go a bit further, still looking at the last two seasons, at 5v5 Barzal produced points at 0.50 pts/gp vs. 0.49 for Aho. So, Barzal comes out slightly ahead there, but realistically the same for all practical purposes. Barzal also eclipsed Aho ever so slightly on the PP, having produced 0.30 pts/gp there vs Aho's 0.28, though again, essentially identical for all practical purposes. This does make one ask though, how is Aho putting up points at a higher rate than Barzal? Turns out the biggest reason for the difference is points scored against an empty net, where Aho had 12 pts (including 7 of his goals) and Barzal had 0. If we subtract out EN points, Aho drops down to 0.88 pts/gp and Barzal stays at 0.84, or 95.1% of Aho's pts/gp (about 9.27m of Aho's 9.75m), and a difference of about 3.56 pts over 82 games.

Is Aho better defensively? Well, over the same seasons, Aho had a higher 5v5 on ice GA/60 at 2.49 vs 2.13 for Barzal. But OK, Barzal plays in front of the better goalie, so let's look beyond that. At 5v5 Aho did have a better xGA/60 at 2.55 vs Barzal's 2.75, and also shots were allowed on net at a lower rate while Aho was on the ice at 29.16 SA/60 compared to 31.2 SA/60 for Barzal. Though reasonably close on both stats. this would seem to indicate that maybe Aho has the edge defensively, but since we factored in goalies for GA, we should also factor in the team they played for here, since that's certainly a factor on these stats. Of the 10 forwards to play at least 1000 min TOI at 5v5 for the Canes over these two years, Aho had the highest SA/60 and xGA/60 of any of them, so relative to his team, he was the worst. Aho also had the 2nd worst GA/60 of the 10 regular forwards, with only Necas having a higher rate there. Barzal on the other hand, using the same criteria, ranked 4th best in SA/60 and 6th best in both xGA/60 and GA/60 of the 12 regular forwards for the Islanders, which isn't exactly a defensive stalwart, but certainly ranks better than Aho. At least in terms of actual on ice effect, Aho doesn't seem to have an edge here.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Aho here, I think he's a tremendous player, and would love to have him on the team. And I'm not trying to say I don't have concerns about Barzal's contract and whether he will live up to it, as I absolutely do have concerns there -- any 8 year contract for that much money involves a ton of risk. I also can appreciate that many people value goals more than they value total points, so I get that argument too. But I do think when we look at all the numbers for what the players have done of late -- and please keep in mind I'm not trying to make any predictions here on how well either will fulfill their contract -- the difference is not nearly as great as you suggest and that Barzal's contract seems fine in comparison.


Do you really think someone disagreeing with you is equivalent to being censored?

Can you do the first paragraph again, but instead of accounting for total points maybe primary assists and goals at 5v5?

Also I hear you about the buyout stuff. Genuinely wondering when the last time a player who was signed to be the highest paid player on his team in his mid 20s was bought out with 3 years left on his deal? That’s not really something I expect to come into play.

I’m by no means a Barzal hater and I’m hoping to see a full year of him on wing with Nelson and Lee or Horvat and Wahlstrom. I think it will be a boon for everyone he plays with, and that will spill down to the next two lines as it’ll be that much harder to game plan for him when theres another threat on his line. I just think that Aho warrants that no matter who he’s playing with already, and that should probably be worth a bigger difference in AAV
 
Been outta the loop for a little, brought a new little lady Isles fan into the fray a few weeks ago!

What's the deal with Mathew Dumba?

And Kane is still unsigned?
Kane had hip surgery last month. His rehab time is expected to be 4-6 months. I suppose sometime around December he'll find a team to play for.

Congratulations on your baby daughter.
 
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Interesting Stats put together here.
What do you guys think?



Maybe the PP will improve a bit more than we think.


IMO there’s no reason for the PP not to be above average this season. First PP will have an elite playmaker (Barzal) elite sniper (Nelson) and two elite net front presence options (Lee/Horvat). We do not have an elite PPQB… but that’s a role that hopefully Dobson can take the next step into becoming. I know it sounds crazy, but I’m cautiously optimistic that our PP has the potential to be very good this season
 
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Was just another panic move by LL who personally doesn’t have the time for the right deal to come along.
FWIW, my hunch is that Lou is the opposite of that. He gives off the vibe to me that off the top he crosses 80% of the players in the league off his wish list because they're not his kind of players/people. A guy like Horvat he's probably had his eye on for years. I wouldn't be surprised if posters here would be horrified to know some of the deals he turned down. This is totally speculation - I could be wrong (a qualifier I could append to most of my posts!).
 
Well, this tells you Barzal is amazing and Aho is not very good. We know that’s not reality. But those stats packs… Aho is a better overall player than Barzal - watching the games demonstrates that.

I would rather have Aho at his new deal vs Barzal under his new deal (and his old deal to boot). Does Carolina have 400 excuses on why Aho ain’t this or that?

If Aho was on the islanders you would complain just the same. Barzal is not the problem. Lou spending a stupid amount on middle 6 forwards is the problem. Lee, Pageau, Palmieri taking up 17 million in cap space is ridiculous. It was even worse when Bailey was there too. Aho paced for all of 1 more point over 82 games this season playing on a team with much better players everywhere and a better powerplay. They are both very similar players. You just hate Barzal for whatever reason.
 
Also I hear you about the buyout stuff. Genuinely wondering when the last time a player who was signed to be the highest paid player on his team in his mid 20s was bought out with 3 years left on his deal? That’s not really something I expect to come into play.

Zach Parise and Ryan Suter . . .
 
If Aho was on the islanders you would complain just the same. Barzal is not the problem. Lou spending a stupid amount on middle 6 forwards is the problem. Lee, Pageau, Palmieri taking up 17 million in cap space is ridiculous. It was even worse when Bailey was there too. Aho paced for all of 1 more point over 82 games this season playing on a team with much better players everywhere and a better powerplay. They are both very similar players. You just hate Barzal for whatever reason.

You know, people track players and stats and stuff. You can look all of this stuff up if you feel like it. But since you decided not to...

- The powerplay argument simply isn’t rooted in reality. 1 in every 3 of Barzal’s points last season was on the PP - it’s 1 in 5 for Aho. This mean's Aho's point output at 5v5 was far superior, which brings us to the "playing with much better players" argument.

- Due to the injury to Svechnikov, Aho played a majority of his season on a line with Seth Jarvis and Teuvo Tervainen, neither of whom eclipsed 40 points. That's probably a good reason why this was his worst statistical season in 5 years. This was Barzal's best since his rookie year, and while they paced for the same amount of points Aho did it with twice as many goals.

The reality is that Aho is probably worth a bit more than his contract and Barzal is worth a bit less. By no means does that mean Barzy is terrible or he’s destroying the team. It’s fine to admit that and move on.
 
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Zach Parise and Ryan Suter . . .
If I’m not mistaken, those were 13 year contracts signed when the players were 28. I think they were bought out after the 8th seasons, so not really applicable here - more of a relic from a bygone cap structure. Aho/Barzal’s contracts would be up at age 33 by the time these buyouts occurred
 
If I’m not mistaken, those were 13 year contracts signed when the players were 28. I think they were bought out after the 8th seasons, so not really applicable here - more of a relic from a bygone cap structure. Aho/Barzal’s contracts would be up at age 33 by the time these buyouts occurred
Come on, it's close enough . . . :laugh:
 
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If Aho was on the islanders you would complain just the same. Barzal is not the problem. Lou spending a stupid amount on middle 6 forwards is the problem. Lee, Pageau, Palmieri taking up 17 million in cap space is ridiculous. It was even worse when Bailey was there too. Aho paced for all of 1 more point over 82 games this season playing on a team with much better players everywhere and a better powerplay. They are both very similar players. You just hate Barzal for whatever reason.
‘If’ would be probably not, bc Aho is the better overall player and worth his money.

The rest, well, bring out the party line on excuses.
 
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Can you do the first paragraph again, but instead of accounting for total points maybe primary assists and goals at 5v5?

Also I hear you about the buyout stuff. Genuinely wondering when the last time a player who was signed to be the highest paid player on his team in his mid 20s was bought out with 3 years left on his deal? That’s not really something I expect to come into play.

I’m by no means a Barzal hater and I’m hoping to see a full year of him on wing with Nelson and Lee or Horvat and Wahlstrom. I think it will be a boon for everyone he plays with, and that will spill down to the next two lines as it’ll be that much harder to game plan for him when theres another threat on his line. I just think that Aho warrants that no matter who he’s playing with already, and that should probably be worth a bigger difference in AAV
One doesn't expect a buyout to come into play, but it's something worth taking into consideration. Look at Lucic, whose 7 year deal started when he was 28. When he was 32 with 3 years left on the deal (same age Aho will be when he has 3 years left), his two most recent seasons were 20 pts each. Unfortunately, his contract was structured so that there wasn't much cap savings in the event of a buyout, so that wasn't an option to escape his contract.

If you want to bring linemates into this, then Aho's top 4 linemates the past couple years have been Jarvis, Teravainen, Svechnikov and Necas. He also is regularly out there with skilled offensive dmen like Burns/Deangelo, Skjei and Slavin. Barzal's top 4 linemates have been Lee, Bailey, Parise and Wahlstrom. I'd easily take Aho's wingers over Barzal's here: Svech>Lee, Necas>Parise, Teravainen>Bailey, Jarvis>Wahlstrom. And I think we all know the Islanders' defense provide much less offensive support than the Canes'. So, there seems to be more evidence to support that Barzal can do it with less skilled teammates than Aho.

But sorry, if you're going to ignore the majority of what I wrote to focus on the first two sentences, then I'm not really inclined to do any more stat work for you. But I do think it's hilarious that you want to exclude secondary assists but also want to to still include points scored against an empty net -- that doesn't sound at all like you're only looking for data that supports your claim.
 
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One doesn't expect a buyout to come into play, but it's something worth taking into consideration. Look at Lucic, whose 7 year deal started when he was 28. When he was 32 with 3 years left on the deal (same age Aho will be when he has 3 years left), his two most recent seasons were 20 pts each. Unfortunately, his contract was structured so that there wasn't much cap savings in the event of a buyout, so that wasn't an option to escape his contract.

If you want to bring linemates into this, then Aho's top 4 linemates the past couple years have been Jarvis, Teravainen, Svechnikov and Necas. He also is regularly out there with skilled offensive dmen like Burns/Deangelo, Skjei and Slavin. Barzal's top 4 linemates have been Lee, Bailey, Parise and Wahlstrom. I'd easily take Aho's wingers over Barzal's here. Svech>Lee, Necas>Parise, Teravainen>Bailey, Jarvis>Wahlstrom. And I think we all know the Islanders' defense provide much less offensive support than the Canes'. So, there seems to be less evidence to support that Aho can do it with less skilled teammates than Barzal.

But sorry, if you're going to ignore the majority of what I wrote to focus on the first two sentences, then I'm not really inclined to do any more stat work for you. But I do think it's hilarious that you want to exclude secondary assists but also want to to still include points scored against an empty net -- that doesn't sound at all like you're only looking for data that supports your claim.

Please know that I generally appreciate your posts here. However, in this case…

We can bring up the Lucic's and the Ladd's of the world (although they do not meet the criteria I stated), but that would involve disregarding the fact that they are a radically different style of player than Barzal or Aho. The biggest decline in their games was due to lack of foot speed. Barring a major injury, it doesn't seem likely that will come into play for either Barzal or Aho.

As stated previously, Aho played a majority of his season with Seth Jarvis and Teuvo Tervainen. Their point output combined barely eclipses Aho's.

And I don't actually need you to do the stat work - it's all readily available on either money puck or any other site that tracks this stuff. I asked you to post it because it is at odds with the stats you decided to focus on to prove your point. You seem to think there's a debate to be had here - if there is, then you're welcome to post the (important!) stats that contradict your stance here. It's simply an invitation not to be so disingenuous.

Barzal is obviously a very good player. He has yet to have a great season (unless you want to count the super happy fun time Weight year). Aho is a play driving 35 goal a year PPG center for the last 5 seasons. I’m really not sure what the discussion is here.

P.S. - Aho had 3 more empty net goals than Barzal last season. Is that supposed to be what's moving the needle in this conversation?
 
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FWIW, my hunch is that Lou is the opposite of that. He gives off the vibe to me that off the top he crosses 80% of the players in the league off his wish list because they're not his kind of players/people. A guy like Horvat he's probably had his eye on for years. I wouldn't be surprised if posters here would be horrified to know some of the deals he turned down. This is totally speculation - I could be wrong (a qualifier I could append to most of my posts!).
I don’t disagree that he is. I do however feel the pressure to win now, under his watch, gives him an extra itchy trigger finger.

I love Horvat but he’s not exactly what this team needed. Barzal is not a wing.
 
Nobody hates Barzal or is saying he’s a problem. Aho paced for the same amount of points with almost twice as many goals. This was Aho’s worst PPG pace of the last 5 seasons, and Barzal’s best since his rookie year.

The powerplay argument isn’t rooted in reality. 1 in every 3 of Barzal’s points last season was on the PP - it’s 1 in 5 for Aho.

The reality is that Aho is probably worth a bit more than his contract and Barzal is worth a bit less. By no means does that mean Barzy is terrible or he’s destroying the team. It’s fine to admit that and move on.

Aho plays with better players in a more offensive system and a better PP. They are both similar caliber players, Aho very well may be better, but they are close. If you swapped Barzal and Aho the numbers would likely swap as well.
 
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Aho plays with better players in a more offensive system and a better PP. They are both similar caliber players, Aho very well may be better, but they are close. If you swapped Barzal and Aho the numbers would likely swap as well.

??????????

- Aho had 4 less power play points than Barzal in 17 more games so not sure why you're clinging to that line of reasoning
- Aho has twice as many career goals and over 100 more points(has played one more professional season). You think Barzal doubles his career goal output on the Canes? Or maybe they're not similar players at all?
 
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??????????

- Aho had 4 less power play points than Barzal in 17 more games so not sure why you're clinging to that line of reasoning
- Aho has twice as many career goals and over 100 more points(has played one more professional season). You think Barzal doubles his career goal output on the Canes? Or maybe they're not similar players at all?

So does goals=better player?? Is Stamkos a better player than Crosby because he scores more goals??

Aho has averaged .9PPG compared to Barzal at .86PPG. Aho has without a doubt played with better talent and in a more offensive system. Maybe Aho's PP numbers are just a sign that he isnt a good PP player.

They may not play a similar style, but they put up similar offensive numbers. Give Barzal Necas and Svechnikov instead of thr garbage he has been stuck playing with. Aho on the isles isnt putting up as many points.
 
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So does goals=better player?? Is Stamkos a better player than Crosby because he scores more goals??

Aho has averaged .9PPG compared to Barzal at .86PPG. Aho has without a doubt played with better talent and in a more offensive system. Maybe Aho's PP numbers are just a sign that he isnt a good PP player.

They may not play a similar style, but they put up similar offensive numbers. Give Barzal Necas and Svechnikov instead of thr garbage he has been stuck playing with. Aho on the isles isnt putting up as many points.

I mean take away the whole watching hockey thing and just on paper... Stamkos scores like a couple more goals than Crosby each year and Crosby scores like 25-30 more points. I don't have a decimal point for you but that sounds about correct right? That is not nearly the same relationship that Aho and Barzal have.

Again, Aho put up those numbers last year with Seth Jarvis and Teuvo Tervainen. Sure, Barzal will put up better numbers with Svech and Necas but Aho just did it without them. That's the difference.

And yes. Goals are more important. Last time I checked there's no such thing called a secondary goal. It is statistically easier to post an assist rather than a goal. They don't decide games by assists. Assists literally do not exist without goals. Yes, goals in hockey are more important than assists. I like Barzal too but man, come on.
 
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Just looking at the potential starting line up. Look similar? Expectations?

Barzal Horvat Lee
Palmieri Nelson Engvall
Clutterbuck JGP Wahlstrom?
Gauthier/Fasching Cizikas Martin/Johnston

Pulock Pelech
Mayfield Romanov
Dobson Aho

Sorokin
Varly

Lambert
 
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