Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

[doublechili]

Everything was a problem last year. The players, the coaching, the schedule, a pandemic.


So why are you afraid of a rebuild?

So Trotz had excuses last year. Got it.

I'm not "afraid" of a rebuild. I think it's a bad idea. I've posted my reasons many, many times.

 

[MJF]

So Trotz had excuses last year. Got it.

So everyone else’s excuses were valid but Trotz’s? He’s part of the same organization.

I'm not "afraid" of a rebuild. I think it's a bad idea. I've posted my reasons many, many times.

Ok

 

[doublechili]

So everyone else’s excuses were valid but Trotz’s? He’s part of the same organization.


Ok

Not sure what other excuses you're talking about. I wasn't making excuses for anyone.

 

[MJF]

Not sure what other excuses you're talking about. I wasn't making excuses for anyone.

Did you just say “Trotz had excuses? Got it” when I listed the things that happened to sink our season in 2022? The team got a pass on those but not Trotz?

 

[doublechili]

Did you just say “Trotz had excuses? Got it” when I listed the things that happened to sink our season in 2022? The team got a pass on those but not Trotz?

Yup, that's what I said. I confirmed that you made excuses for Trotz. I did not make excuses for anyone however,

 

[MJF]

Yup, that's what I said. I confirmed that you made excuses for Trotz. I did not make excuses for anyone however,

I made excuses for everyone. Trotz took the fall for them. It’s as obvious as Trotz not wanting to coach in 2023.

 

[MJF]

This was posted shortly after he was fired...



This article sheds further light on Trotz mental state on coaching...

Barry Trotz opens up about sudden change of heart

Earlier today, he turned down a job and is stepping away from coaching for now.

www.hockeyfeed.com

In this interview with Trotz from July 2022, he says he was ready to come back to the Islanders and honor his contract this year, and that he was coming back with “a chip on his shoulder.”

Find that at the 3:48 mark.

 

[SI]

So everyone else’s excuses were valid but Trotz’s? He’s part of the same organization.


Ok

Sorry to interject in this spat -

To believe a rebuild is a good idea year 3 into a new building is not reasonable or logical thinking.

If you believe these owners are strong, then they recognize a team president who has given them success and results in the last 5 years, albeit not a Stanley CUP, but 2 conference finals and 4 years out of 5 playoffs.

It may be your opinion @MJF that this team will be mediocre until the roster ages out and that is not good enough for you - fine your opinion, but it is emotional not factual.

There are many solid pieces to build on with this team as old as you think this team may be their top 4 D and starting goaltender are under 30 also Horvat and Barzal 28 and 26 respectively and Nelson playing better hockey at 32 vs. 27.

Suggesting a rebuild this early is NOT a sound decision from a business POV but also not for Franchise and Culture And on ice POV. This team is finally moving away from those days and reflecting back a stronger culture.

And I’ll bite on @periferal ? Earlier on this thread about the article being right - it is a superficial take and shortsighted. Lou is going all-in and he believes he should - he will trade 1sts if he can extend that window and make the team better. I would rather him trade that 2024 pick to upgrade the roster.

The rebuild can happen when this core fails or continues to be stagnant. Why have this preemptive rebuild with the best goalie in the league and NOT average pieces, but necessary pieces in place to win championship. JGP is + 35 in his playoff career - winning almost 55% of Faceoffs and playing 17-18 mins. A game.

In 2025, if the team does what you say it does, then Nelson and Palmieri will both be free agents that off-season. Lee and Pageau with 1 year left on their deals. They can sell off then and build up draft capital.
Blue jackets did it when they went all - in and within one off-season quickly recouped draft picks and blue chip prospects.

The team needs a tweak and some upgrades for sure, but let’s be honest the Cap situation has not helped at all preventing teams from making moves.

My hope is for an upgrade in the top 6 and in the top 4 - if they had those upgrades they almost certainly could be contenders.

 

[MJF]

Sorry to interject in this spat -

To believe a rebuild is a good idea year 3 into a new building is not reasonable or logical thinking.

If you believe these owners are strong, then they recognize a team president who has given them success and results in the last 5 years, albeit not a Stanley CUP, but 2 conference finals and 4 years out of 5 playoffs.

It may be your opinion @MJF that this team will be mediocre until the roster ages out and that is not good enough for you - fine your opinion, but it is emotional not factual.

There are many solid pieces to build on with this team as old as you think this team may be their top 4 D and starting goaltender are under 30 also Horvat and Barzal 28 and 26 respectively and Nelson playing better hockey at 32 vs. 27.

Suggesting a rebuild this early is NOT a sound decision from a business POV but also not for Franchise and Culture And on ice POV.

And I’ll bite on @periferal ? Earlier on this thread about the article being right - it is dead wrong and a superficial take. Lou is going all-in and he believes he should - he will trade 1sts if he can extend that window and make the team better.

The rebuild can happen then! Why have this preemptive rebuild with the best goalie in the league and NOT average pieces, but necessary pieces in place to win championship. JGP is + 35 in his playoff career - winning almost 55% of Faceoffs and playing 17-18 mins. A game.

In 2025, if the team does what you say it does, then Nelson and Palmieri will both be free agents that off-season. Lee and Pageau with 1 year left on their deals. They can sell off then and build up draft capital.
Blue jackets did it and they went all - in and within one off-season quickly recouped draft picks and blue chip prospects.

The team needs a tweak and some upgrades for sure, but let’s be honest the Cap situation has not helped at all preventing teams from making moves.

My hope is for an upgrade in the top 6 and in the top 4 - if they had those upgrades they almost certainly could be contenders.

I understand the reasons why a rebuild won’t happen now. The main one was cemented in the day Lou traded for Bo Horvat, and this goes hand in hand with that…there will be a continuation of a Lamoriello in the GM’s office. I simply think the fanbase, owners, franchise, etc. is in a solid enough place today to withstand a rebuild. That will probably be signaled by a housecleaning of the front office.

 

[CupHolders]

In this interview with Trotz from July 2022, he says he was ready to come back to the Islanders and honor his contract this year, and that he was coming back with “a chip on his shoulder.”

Find that at the 3:48 mark.

I see a professional acting professional and saying all the necessary professional things. I also see him committing to his last season but not to anything past once his contract ends... again professional.

But in the end, rumored reports were that he lost some heart in coaching and was considering the front office. What inevitably DID happen was that he did not coach and has ended up in the front office. His statements are one thing, but the actions were consistent with rumored reports.

Everything screams that this was not strictly a coach firing... but one due to mitigating circumstances.

 

[MJF]

I see a professional acting professional and saying all the necessary professional things. I also see him not committing to anything past his contract... again professional.

But in the end rumored reports were that he lost some heart in coaching and was considering the front office. What inevitably DID happen was that he did not coach and has ended up in the front office. His statements are one thing, but the actions were consistent with rumored reports.

Everything screams that this was not strictly a coach firing... but one due to mitigating circumstances.

Ok you’re seeing something I’m not in this interview.

Again, I try not to read between the lines. That’s a HFIsles favorite activity. I’m taking Trotz, as I took Lou, at face value.

 

[SI]

I understand the reasons why a rebuild won’t happen now. The main one was cemented in the day Lou traded for Bo Horvat, and this goes hand in hand with that…there will be a continuation of a Lamoriello in the GM’s office. I simply think the fanbase, owners, franchise, etc. is in a solid enough place today to withstand a rebuild. That will probably be signaled by a housecleaning of the front office.

The silence is deafening - I am not sure whose head is on the chopping block, but no address from the GM and Head coach is certainly disconcerting.

I am not sure I agree if this fan base can withstand another rebuild right now.

 

[MJF]

The silence is deafening - I am not sure whose head is on the chopping block, but no address from the GM and Head coach is certainly disconcerting.

I am not sure I agree if this fan base can withstand another rebuild right now.

I think it can withstand a rebuild because there is an arena in place and owners with solid finances, who I believe will find the right GM to navigate it through. In all the other iterations of the so-called rebuilds, they were brought on by owners who refused to spend any more money on payroll, in large part because of the onerous Coliseum lease that gave the Islanders no revenue, and left it in the hands of their clown GMs.

 

[CupHolders]

Ok you’re seeing something I’m not in this interview.

Again, I try not to read between the lines. That’s a HFIsles favorite activity. I’m taking Trotz, as I took Lou, at face value.

C'mon now. I provided you with an article that has quotes from Barry himself contradicting Barry himself in that interview. So let's not put it as "just" reading between the lines. You're selecting one face over another.

I don't even begrudge Barry for being inconsistent. He had a trying year, is human and sometimes things take time to sort out internally.

 

[MJF]

C'mon now. I provided you with an article that has quotes from Barry himself contradicting Barry himself in that interview. So let's not put it as "just" reading between the lines. You're selecting one face over another.

I don't even begrudge Barry for being inconsistent. He had a trying year, is human and sometimes things take time to sort out internally.

Then the other thing to do is what? Pick and choose from both the print interview with Dreger and the video. That gives us a stalemate.

For me what it boils down to is Lou has impulsively fired coaches before, and this was another one of his impulses.

 

[PK Cronin]

C'mon now. I provided you with an article that has quotes from Barry himself contradicting Barry himself in that interview. So let's not put it as "just" reading between the lines. You're selecting one face over another.

I don't even begrudge Barry for being inconsistent. He had a trying year, is human and sometimes things take time to sort out internally.

That's where I land. He said one thing, that he'd come back and honor his contract (which I don't think sounds very convincing for someone who wants to come back but that's just me), but later on says he was dealing with personal issues, couldn't coach, and would be back soon.

So did Lamoriello do him a favor?
Did he fire him because of performance?
Did he fire him because he knew or thought his personal situation would be a distraction?
Did he fire him for some combination, including the possibility that Trotz was looking for a managerial role?

Ultimately it doesn't matter much to me. He's not here anymore.

 

[CupHolders]

Then the other thing to do is what? Pick and choose from both the print interview with Dreger and the video. That gives us a stalemate.

For me what it boils down to is Lou has impulsively fired coaches before, and this was another one of his impulses.

Dreger was the tweet. Print interview was from a hockey blog, but with direct quotes. You can choose to do whatever you want with the information. But when I have...

Barry contradicting himself. Along with multiple reports of one thing (interest in front office over coaching), that later ACTUALLY comes to pass with Barry leaving coaching and joining a front office.

What I'm doing with the information is recognizing there was a lot more going on behind the scenes then this is just being Lou firing another coach.

Regardless, I don't even think Trotz matters much to your overall argument on Lou. Ultimately, he is judged by the teams performance... with or without Trotz as coach.

Just because some of us disagree that Trotz firing was STRICTLY a hockey decision, doesn't mean Lou is absolved from responsibility of the seasons outcome.

 

[CupHolders]

That's where I land. He said one thing, that he'd come back and honor his contract (which I don't think sounds very convincing for someone who wants to come back but that's just me), but later on says he was dealing with personal issues, couldn't coach, and would be back soon.

So did Lamoriello do him a favor?
Did he fire him because of performance?
Did he fire him because he knew or thought his personal situation would be a distraction?
Did he fire him for some combination, including the possibility that Trotz was looking for a managerial role?

Ultimately it doesn't matter much to me. He's not here anymore.

I absolutely do think Lou and the owners were doing him a personal favor AND willingly taking the heat for it. Which is something Lou has done before for others. Is also why Trotz and so many other players speak positively of Lou, when you would think they would not.

 

[CupHolders]

The silence is deafening - I am not sure whose head is on the chopping block, but no address from the GM and Head coach is certainly disconcerting.

I am not sure I agree if this fan base can withstand another rebuild right now.

If the Isles had the Detroit Redwings history for the past thirty years, then yes this fanbase could better withstand a rebuild. But they don't, and I think it's a fair thing to take into consideration.

 

[steveat]

Florida would never make that deal

I will force them to! Bash their heads against the hood of a car and say TAKE IT!!!

 

[NC 1972]

Florida would never make that deal

Every GM in the league wants a player like Tkachuk! And given his performance so far in these playoffs which is worldly, you can see why Tampa made the trade. He's got it all he is the epitome of a power forward that impacts the game on many levels. He's an agitator a play maker, goal scorer a physical disrupter every goaltenders nightmare in the crease. And he plays with great emotion , you'd have to back up the brinks truck or two and even then there's no shot. This is a player that was built for playoff hockey.

 

[JPIsles18]

The silence is deafening - I am not sure whose head is on the chopping block, but no address from the GM and Head coach is certainly disconcerting.

I am not sure I agree if this fan base can withstand another rebuild right now.

I don't think a rebuild is necessary. I also don't think this team has many tradable assets.

The biggest question mark for the Isles is Sorokin. What the Isles do with Sorokin will become franchise defining. Sorokin is a superstar goalie. He will likely get superstar money. There are only 3 goalies in that realm in terms of cap hit: Price, Bobrovsky, and Vasilevskiy. 2 of the 3 have been bad contracts. Price due to injury, and Bob due to poor play.

The Isles have not been able to construct a SC worthy roster with Sorokin playing on a dirt cheap contract. It'll be even more difficult once his contract almost triples. It will also likely be for 7-8 years, which will bring him to age 36/37. For this to work, the Isles will have to reverse course and actually use cheap players on their bottom 6 to fill out the roster. They would also need to find top of lineup forwards/defenseman to produce at ELC and bridge contracts. The Isles haven't been great at either thus far. They pay a premium for bottom 6 forwards, and have been giving away 1st round picks.

As much as I love Sorokin, there just isn't enough data to suggest paying a goalie 10 mil x 7 or 8 years is a good idea. The Jets are facing the same question with Hellybuyck, and Nashville with Saros.

This is probably the most important question for the Isles to answer this offseason. If they don't feel it's worth it, the time to trade him would be this offseason. You can potentially get a young top 4 dman and a top 6 forward in such a trade.

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

As much as I love Sorokin, there just isn't enough data to suggest paying a goalie 10 mil x 7 or 8 years is a good idea. The Jets are facing the same question with Hellybuyck, and Nashville with Saros.

This is probably the most important question for the Isles to answer this offseason. If they don't feel it's worth it, the time to trade him would be this offseason. You can potentially get a young top 4 dman and a top 6 forward in such a trade.

A trade involving Sorokin doesn't take place with the current GM.

Just want to put that out there, for better or worse.

I do agree with you about how precarious the situation is with a window of competition that doesn't really appear to be there and that Winnipeg and Nashville are in a similar boat on that front.

As much as it is uninpiring for some, the current GM will be busier this summer figuring out the following, in no particular order:
- How is Bailey buried or gotten rid of nicely in a manner that doesn't cost anything but money?
- How do we find the right role and more ice time for Holmstrom and a returning Wahlstrom while still having the contracts of Clutterbuck, Martin, and Johnston as part of the equation?
- Do you invest in re-upping Mayfield or replace him for cheaper on the UFA market with righty Dman who has a more mobile, puck-moving game?
- Do you manage to re-sign Engvall for some decent change or do existing contracts preclude you from doing so?
- Can you keep Parise in the fold in some manner?
- How much is Varlamov part of the family as a back-up or does this position have to be made use of to linder the cap hit moving forward? Might it even be the way in which you dispose of Bailey?
- Can the Aho/Bolduc/Salo grouping be upgraded on via free agency or the trading of one or more of these players?

Notice, I'm not even mentioning any moves behind the bench, which, uh, is a huge question moving forward.

I just don't think we see Lou removing Lambert. Lambert doesn't go unless a new GM comes in and Lou is out entirely (i.e. isn't still president of hockey operations).

Also, I'm not even going into the moving of pieces like Pageau, Palmieri, Cizikas, etc. If Lou has signed these guys, much less traded for and then signed these guys, I'm not seeing him move any while he's the GM.

 

[JPIsles18]

A trade involving Sorokin doesn't take place with the current GM.

Just want to put that out there, for better or worse.

I do agree with you about how precarious the situation is with a window of competition that doesn't really appear to be there and that Winnipeg and Nashville are in a similar boat on that front.

As much as it is uninpiring for some, the current GM will be busier this summer figuring out the following, in no particular order:
- How is Bailey buried or gotten rid of nicely in a manner that doesn't cost anything but money?
- How do we find the right role and more ice time for Holmstrom and a returning Wahlstrom while still having the contracts of Clutterbuck, Martin, and Johnston as part of the equation?
- Do you invest in re-upping Mayfield or replace him for cheaper on the UFA market with righty Dman who has a more mobile, puck-moving game?
- Do you manage to re-sign Engvall for some decent change or do existing contracts preclude you from doing so?
- Can you keep Parise in the fold in some manner?
- How much is Varlamov part of the family as a back-up or does this position have to be made use of to linder the cap hit moving forward? Might it even be the way in which you dispose of Bailey?
- Can the Aho/Bolduc/Salo grouping be upgraded on via free agency or the trading of one or more of these players?

Notice, I'm not even mentioning any moves behind the bench, which, uh, is a huge question moving forward.

I just don't think we see Lou removing Lambert. Lambert doesn't go unless a new GM comes in and Lou is out entirely (i.e. isn't still president of hockey operations).

Also, I'm not even going into the moving of pieces like Pageau, Palmieri, Cizikas, etc. If Lou has signed these guys, much less traded for and then signed these guys, I'm not seeing him move any while he's the GM.

Agree with all here. As much as I appreciate what Lou has done, post-Snow era, he has reached the end of the line as a guy who should be allowed to right the ship. A GM begins to falter when he can no longer view his roster objectively. He believed the team (even before the Horvat deal) to be good enough to compete for a Stanley Cup. That, to me, was a fireable offense then and even so now.

You can win in this league without superstars which is what Lou is trying to do. The problem is not having appropriate depth because there are very few value contracts. Currently the Isles are spending 3rd most on goaltending, and 6th most on forwards. Only the Capitals, Leafs, Stars, Stars, Flames, and Oilers spent more on forwards in the 2022-23 season. Bang for the buck isn't there. Lou isn't known for getting maximum ROI.

 

[The Wahligator]

Lou is simply waiting for Dubas to become available to announce his move upstairs