Would not be surprised is Laviolette gets hired by the Rangers, really want him for the Islanders though.
Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California
- Thread starter PK Cronin
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Another guy that can't keep a job. Five franchises have already fired him, at shorter and shorter durations. As if he would even want another job at a place that already fired him.
iggy
Registered User
- Aug 2, 2005
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My thought process is to keep the better player and to not make trades to free up salary that require us to add in a sweetener. I believe there’s no other way to get rid of Pageau (or Bailey for that matter). I think Cizikas is a waste of time at $2.5m for 3 more years. However, his low cap hit should make him the player easier to trade. Meanwhile, if our centers were Horvat, Barzal, Nelson, Pageau we are much more solid and productive down the middle than with Cizikas on the 4th line. We already have a cheap bottom 6 and they’re awful.
I just think the OHL is a much better league then the Q, especially for a guy with size like DuFour (and Lafrenière) it's easier for guys like that to dominate.
Thought firing him the first time was awesome!!!....no desire to see him again.
Blues fan, coming in peace. Feel like Krug may be a fit for y'all. We could take back either Bailley or Palmeiri or other similar contract. Krug admittedly had a rough year, but was playing through injuries on team that was terrible defensively. I think he can still help a club, likely one that has better defensive structure than Blues do. We need to reallocate money away from D as we rebuild, and I think want shorter term guys even if they aren't as good. Thoughts?
The Real JT
The crowd called out for more
doublechili
For all intensive purposes, your nuts
- Apr 11, 2006
- 19,017
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Reasonable suggestion, but IDK. The Isles have mostly LHD in the pipeline, so if they let Mayfield walk I'd rather see them get a RHD to replace him. And if they were going to roll the dice on a 32 year old defenseman with 4 more years at a higher salary to help out the PP, I'd rather go big and look at Karlsson. Or, more realistically (and more likely) signing a RHD like Severson or Klingberg.
LeapOnOver
Mackenzie is a hack!
Yeah, there's a big difference between what we know and what management will do. They are going to continue to double down until the core completely ages out, whether you agree with it or not. To think otherwise when you've been given every indication what the plan is, means you aren't rooted in reality. The person you responded to is at least making proposals that are probable based on LLs habits and behavior. Your plan is a dream state.
IslesNorway
Registered User
I'm merely pointing out the simple facts of the matter at hand, namely the aging roster, lack of prospects, the trading away of picks in recent years and the resulting dead average team that will not get better. IMHO, trading away even more picks for even more higher paid players, or signing even more 30+ UFAs is only going to take this team in one direction: down.
They might well double down with what they've got but that is only because they cannot get rid of a bunch of players due to their terrible contracts. Do you think Lou is happy with the season? He isn't but he's painted himself into a corner. It remains to see if ownership will let him mortgage the future or not.
The alternative is stay the course and let Bailey, Martin and Clutterbuck play out their deals and then try to trade Palmieri with only one more year left on his deal. One year from now Sorokin is UFA and they need cap space badly for him.
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I agree, I'd move Pageau, Cizikas, Clutterbuck, and Martin. Which won't happen. Because...Identity? That lines identity has become one that gets dominated and spent in the defensive zone. Couple that with dmen that struggle to break out, and its a disaster.
Pageau is a decent player and is worth the 5 mil to some team, just not the Isles. Isles have too many players that make around 5 mil that do not produce enough to move the needle. Furthermore, Pageau is not that great defensively, but is perceived as being good. This leads to him being overused in high leverage situations.
The same is true for the 4th line. The 4th line is criminally overused as an "energy" and/or "defensive" line. The underlying metrics do not support this type of usage. They get caved in when they're on the ice. I understand that they are there to wear down the other teams, but they are just not effective. By pretending they are, and overusing them, the Isles are giving away far too many minutes to subpar players.
Lou is old school in the way he thinks about the 4th line. However, look at Seattle and what they have been able to do with a guy like Daniel Sprong. He plays on the 4th line and is not a typical 4th liner. It's ok to have finishing ability on a 4th line.
The Real JT
The crowd called out for more
I’ll start by saying that Palmieri had a good playoff performance this season and he’s not near the top of the list of problems for the Isles but….
His last 3 seasons his goal production has been 10, 15 and 16. That’s distinctly lower than his prior seasons. He’s also 32 years old. $5M/year is far too high a price to pay for 2 more years of that (or perhaps less).
I struggle to use this comparison but here goes. Laf has been underwhelming we’ll all agree. As a young player with less PP time than Palmieri his last 3 seasons goal production has been 12, 19 and 16.
Beauvillier’s numbers were 15, 12 and 18 btw.
Palmieri’s good playoff play in a 6 game exit doesn’t mask his deficiencies and future value.
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there will always be a handful of teams that could use a Pageau type 3rd line centerman .
I think if they want to run it back for another shot at a playoff run he would be needed on the island instead of elsewhere though .
Ivan Provorov is a very bad defenseman. He's been awful the past two seasons on a bad team. Now there's a chance he is better than what he's shown because Philly was so bad, but he has been more part of the problem than the solution. He's bad defensively. He's even worse offensively. He doesn't solve any of our problems. Giving up a 2024 1st rounder in a trade that makes us objectively worse is criminal. But then you also give up two 2nd? To get rid of one year of Bailey? Also, Provorov makes about 6.75. His actual play is that of a 2-3 mil dman. He's also overpaid. One of the worst trade proposals I have seen on this. Very rarely do you see the fan of a team getting so badly fleeced in a trade.
Palmieri would have to have Chicago on his wish list as part of his modified NTC. Also, there's no reason to trade him unless you have a suitable replacement for him. He was quite good last year and was very good in the playoffs. I think trading Pageau makes more sense. I'd keep Palms.
Parise was quite good. However, I'd revamp the whole 4th line. I missed having an effective 4th line. At 750k, bring Parise back and put him on the 4th line.
The other moves you suggested are fine, but we don't need Schenn. We need a PP QB. We don't have one. I don't see any obvious players to replace. Pelech/Pulock aren't going anywhere. Doubt they deal Romanov with his connection to Sorokin. Trading Dobson could be a mistake given how young he is and selling at a low price. Aho is tremendous value. He was quite good and underrated. Perhaps Severson makes sense as a Mayfield replacement.
The team was healthy and had Horvat and Engval as additions. They have an elite Sorokin for pennies on the dollar. You want to run it back? I'm sorry but we've been running it back for 2 years now hoping we have enough scoring. We don't. It was obvious. We know it. The league knows it. Your dog probably knows it. Hoping Lou figures it out.
We can't run it back. That's malpractice.
he still has good wheels for being 32 , its his durability thats in question .
everyones numbers are filtered downwards because of the defensive style of game the isles have to employ .
The Real JT
The crowd called out for more
You’re not wrong on that but Palmieri has consistently more ice time, PP time and plays with more offensively skilled players than Laf.
We could call those factors a wash but that in itself is an indictment of what Palmieri’s value is.
well , my dog also knows Barzal's conditioning , timing and overall health of that injured knee was nowhere near optimal after being out for close to two months .He and Horvat previously played 6 games together so theres plenty of time for them (8 years) to develop chemistry and a bromance
Lou's not going to trade Palmieri anywhere , he's one of ''his guys'' Nobody will touch Lee's contract until he's on his last year of it / deadline move for someone with cap space that could use his big body in the playoffs if he's still productive .
Engvall extended , Bailey moved at or before draft is about as realistic as things are going to get in the short term .
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5v5 the Isles played fairly well against one of the best defensive teams in the league. During the 6 game series, there were 4 forwards that were under 45% xGF: Clutterbuck, Pageau, Cizikas, and Martin. It's also fair to note that all these players had very little offensive zone starts. These players were relied heavily to provide "defense." As far as GA/60, that 4th line was worst on the team at 4.57, 4.18, and 3.01 for Cizikas, Clutterbuck, and Martin, respectively.
This was the line who mostly started in the defensive zone and got caved in by all of the Canes lines. They were awful. However, they all played 10+ minutes on 5v5 (except for Clutter, he was at 9 minutes). Horvat led the way with 14:34/60.
The Canes forwards that played 4th line forward minutes were Statsny, Puljujarvi, Drury, and Stepan. The only negative player of the bunch was Drury at 31.3 xGF%. The other 4th liners feasted on the Isles.
The Isles don't have elite talent to ride on 2-3 lines. They need contribution from all 4. The Canes are similar in that respect. The only difference is that they are better at identifying effective players. The 4th line is being relied on far too much because they are incorrectly assumed to be good defensively. They are not. Cizikas is, but he is so bad offensively he negates any defensive value he may have.
The Isles cannot run this back. Barzal is not a McDavid type, even when he is at full conditioning. The team is built on depth. They need to stop pretending they have 4 effective lines. They have an expensive and ineffective 4th line. Worst part is that those guys are so ineffective, you can't even move them to another line because they drag whatever line they're on down.
Lou has been sloppy with his team building. It's important for teams to understand what each player brings. Lou hasn't shown that ability with players he falls in love with.
Exactly my point. A few years ago the 4th line was able to keep play in the O zone, hem the opponent in for over a minute, and generate scoring chances. Those days are long gone. 17-53-15 are back to where they were when they were first put together...one trip into the O zone and right down the ice and pinned in their own end for the rest of their shift. They might have a moment of looking good or even scoring, but that doesn't justify the 12-14 minutes a game usually get.
The Isles have one center playing out of position. And my question was why keep Cizikas over Pageau, because I believe one of those 2 players will have to be traded this summer. I don't care how little Casey Cizikas is being paid, I will not keep him simply because his salary matches what a 4th liner should be paid. As long as J-G Pageau is under contract here I'd keep him over Cizikas. I want the better player on the team. Pageau underperforming his contract is still 20 points better than Cizikas underperforming his contract.
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SI
Registered User
- Feb 16, 2013
- 7,907
- 4,104
Not obsessed but trying to explore how this team can improve the roster for next year. Upgrading Palmieri would improve this roster. He gets injured a lot and he trending in the wrong direction.
I am very aware of the cap situation in the league and it may force Lou’s hand to basically come back with the exact same roster. This is the most likely outcome.
But I enjoy coming up with bold moves (or crazy ones) to navigate the cap crunch and fitting with Lou’s philosophy of hard nose heavy hockey and just get in. It’s like a puzzle. Some people do Su Doku - I like posting these ideas and I do not get my feelings hurt when I get flamed or bent out of shape when people disagree - just with @periferal -
I was also the poster who was harping on the trade Nelson for a blue chip prospect and a 1st with the caveat of using that $ to sign free agent.
I’m sure I’ll think of more but to wrap this up a way to upgrade this roster with the Cap steady and keep the top 3 F - Nelson, Horvat, and Barzal, then Palmieri is the player.
Pageau is too valuable to trade, Lee and his term are not going anywhere, then Bailey and Palmieri need to go.
I mused about maybe mid round picks in return to dump the player. Another way I mused was to take back another bad contract and that was Provorov, both have 2 years left and Provy carries +1.65 cap hit and is almost 6 years younger and I believe would improve the blue line. @JPIsles18 disagrees and is witnessing a player, who is part of a bad team playing 26-27 mins. A night and in need of a change of scenery.
Yeah, but in your proposal you're also trading for Provorov. I wouldn't even trade Palmieri one on one for Provorov without a sweetener from Philly. Trading Palms isn't terrible but you need a replacement. He was very good last year.Not obsessed but trying to explore how this team can improve the roster for next year. Upgrading Palmieri would improve this roster. He gets injured a lot and he trending in the wrong direction.
I am very aware of the cap situation in the league and it may force Lou’s hand to basically come back with the exact same roster. This is the most likely outcome.
But I enjoy coming up with bold moves (or crazy ones) to navigate the cap crunch and fitting with Lou’s philosophy of hard nose heavy hockey and just get in. It’s like a puzzle. Some people do Su Doku - I like posting these ideas and I do not get my feelings hurt when I get flamed or bent out of shape when people disagree - just with @periferal -
I was also the poster who was harping on the trade Nelson for a blue chip prospect and a 1st with the caveat of using that $ to sign free agent.
I’m sure I’ll think of more but to wrap this up a way to upgrade this roster with the Cap steady and keep the top 3 F - Nelson, Horvat, and Barzal, then Palmieri is the player.
Pageau is too valuable to trade, Lee and his term are not going anywhere, then Bailey and Palmieri need to go.
I mused about maybe mid round picks in return to dump the player. Another way I mused was to take back another bad contract and that was Provorov, both have 2 years left and Provy carries +1.65 cap hit and is almost 6 years younger and I believe would improve the blue line. @JPIsles18 disagrees and is witnessing a player, who is part of a bad team playing 26-27 mins. A night and in need of a change of scenery.
LeapOnOver
Mackenzie is a hack!
Palms hasn't been very good for the Isles any time other than the playoffs. I'm not rushing to dump him...i think he still holds value. But I've yet to see him have a 'very good' season since he's been here.
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