Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

[SI90]

Honestly, if rumors of CAR being interested are to be believed. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are trying to do so by moving Kotakaniemi. I also think people would flip their “stuff” if that happened.

But I’ll also point out that he was formerly a highly rated top ten first rounder, higher than the traded Pageau pick. The very kind of asset that we think Pageau wasn’t good enough to warrant.

Id be highly upset with that swap. Which probably means it would end up good lol

 

[ekill08x]

I sense that you are too fixated on the 3C position as a category. Moreover, that since he is a 3C that his contribution is only that of an interchangeable bottom six piece.

Personally, I don’t think it matters what position he’s listed as… it’s the quality of minutes that he provides. As already shown the competition he face’s already makes him more valuable than some second or first line players.

Similarly, folks on this board seem to equate all first rounders equally. It was a late pick. And I happen to be a Ridly Greig fan, and think he’ll be a good player.

It’s not as if that first rounder was a high enough pick to trade for a DeBrincat level scorer… which has also been brought up as a misguided comparable as if the Isles gave up a top 10 pick for Pageau instead of DeBrincat.

Listen clearly you feel strongly about this, and I don’t expect to change your mind. I’m also not against trading Pageau (or anyone) if it makes sense. But the notion of having to jump on a lower return to push him out? No thank you.

I dont hate the player. I will stand by the trade for him was terrible. It was a late pick and a 2 and a 3 and we overpayed for him to stay here for very meh production and a good faceoff technician and penalty killer. He's eclipsed 20 goals once in his career. I hate to say this but for what the Rangers just got Trochek for, the JGP contract looks very sub par. For Trochek to be getting just $625k more and hes better or equal to JGP at faceoffs and penalty kill and much better of a scorer. We just need more for the money.

 

[SI90]

A bit off topic, but relevant: here's an excerpt from an article about cap allocation (link to full article below):

FORWARDS
Main Role Players: 1C, 2C, 3C, 1W, 2W

Supporting Role Players: 1W, 2W, 3W, 3W, 4C, 4W, 4W

Max % of Salary Cap:

- ~14% to 1C (about 10.22M of 73M)

- ~10% to 2C (about 7.3 of 73M)

- ~7% to 3C (about 5.1M of 73M


This was from 2016 when the cap was $73M, but the interesting thing is that this person groups the top 3 Centers plus (only) 2 wingers as the most important forwards. I can't say that I disagree with that.

We have good centers. We need an elite winger or 2.

 

[isles55]

Cizikas should’ve been playing 3c for years now. He’s more than capable.

 

[MJF]

Malkin/Ledecky wants a winning team so he can sell...they want to flip the Isles to make a profit. They are basically 2 Wangs and unfortunately 2 Wangs don't make a white. 8)

Do you have a link to this or is this just your opinion?

 

[CupHolders]

We have good centers. We need an elite winger or 2.

Right now I have, Barzal and Horvat as some kind of weird two headed dragon. Where the best of each player makes a top center, and the rest is good enough to be a top line winger.

But going forward into next year, Bailey has to be dropped in order to add to the top six.

Cizikas should’ve been playing 3c for years now. He’s more than capable.

And you would likely be all for back filling the fourth line with someone like Andreoff or Brassard.

As if we haven’t seen Toronto’s bottom six depth shortcomings every year in the playoffs.

Even they have recognized their issues and paid a premium for bottom six players this year.

 

[Chardo]

He's also 31 on a team that probably won't be a Cup contender while he's still a productive player. And he's one of the few assets this franchise has that another team would actually trade something valuable for.

In a burn-it-to-the-ground-and-contend-in-five-years rebuild, yeah, you trade him.

 

[CupHolders]

In a burn-it-to-the-ground-and-contend-in-five-years rebuild, yeah, you trade him.

Well, unless his game collapses he should have just as much value the next couple of years.

So it allows the Isles to navigate the conditional VCR pick while trying to determine to compete and/or rebuild.

Therefore we shouldn’t feel worried that they’re missing out on possible assets if this team continues to fail to compete.

 

[Doshell Propivo]

He's also 31 on a team that probably won't be a Cup contender while he's still a productive player. And he's one of the few assets this franchise has that another team would actually trade something valuable for.

Idiotic. (Not surprisingly...)

 

[isles55]

Right now I have, Barzal and Horvat as some kind of weird two headed dragon. Where the best of each player makes a top center, and the rest is good enough to be a top line winger.

But going forward into next year, Bailey has to be dropped in order to add to the top six.


And you would likely be all for back filling the fourth line with someone like Andreoff or Brassard.

As if we haven’t seen Toronto’s bottom six depth shortcomings every year in the playoffs.

Even they have recognized their issues and paid a premium for bottom six players this year.

Toronto’s playoff issues have little to do with their bottom-6. It’s their top players not producing and weak goaltending.

A mediocre 4th line center is worth it if they can use that money to upgrade a more important position.

 

[periferal]

I'm not getting sucked into this vortex with you, agree to disagree just don't spam this place with your opinions and conspiracy theories.

Very easy to label things as a "vortex" or "conspiracy theories" when you don't want to simply have a conversation. You don't like me for whatever reason. Totally cool - Then why don't you just hit the ignore button on me and then you'll be saved from all my posts that seem to annoy you no matter what I write.

 

[periferal]

It's been talked about a few times around the league...Kyper and Bourne, Elliote Friedman, Hockeybuzz...there's smoke...definitely smoke. Malkin/Ledecky wants a winning team so he can sell...they want to flip the Isles to make a profit. They are basically 2 Wangs and unfortunately 2 Wangs don't make a white. 8)

This also explains why that when they bought the team and brought in Lou, they didn't rebuild. 9 times out of 10 you get a rebuild, especially with this time of team.

Really interesting. Not doubting you, but can you post any links by legit reporters saying that the primary goal of Malkin is to simply flip the Isles and make a profit? That just doesn't seem to vibe with Malkin setting up his mall right next door to UBS and certainly doesn't explain Ledecky showing up to seemingly every islander fan event no matter how small. Name another owner that does that (if they're just in it for profit).

I think these guys are professional owners who had a chance to hire a big personality with a long resume in Lou...And it's Lou who would never rebuild. I mean how many times has Ledecky said, "If you interfere with your general manager, then you don't have a general manager." He is Mr. "In Lou we Trust," and not that he ever will, but if Lou did do a rebuild then I think Malkin/Ledecky would be on board with it.

Because as of now if they let Lou continue on this course to the Bermuda Triangle of mediocrity or worse for the foreseeable future without stepping in, they are going to reduce the chances of flipping the team for a higher value, if at all.

 

[danteipp]

Bruins giving a 1st + 3rd for Gavrikov. Trade mayfield!!

Now to me, that seems like a horrible trade. But maybe the Bruins can "fix" Gavrikov by playing him lower in the lineup and sheltering his minutes. Of course if he helps them win a Stanley Cup, it is a win.

I dont hate the player. I will stand by the trade for him was terrible. It was a late pick and a 2 and a 3 and we overpayed for him to stay here for very meh production and a good faceoff technician and penalty killer. He's eclipsed 20 goals once in his career. I hate to say this but for what the Rangers just got Trochek for, the JGP contract looks very sub par. For Trochek to be getting just $625k more and hes better or equal to JGP at faceoffs and penalty kill and much better of a scorer. We just need more for the money.

And we think the Islanders had a legitimate shot at landing Trocheck for the same price? Because history has shown us that is unlikely. Players have to want to join a team and the Isles are not necessarily a draw. Trocheck had his choice of teams. You can't just cherry pick a name and contract. There is far more to it than numbers.

 

[xECK29x]

Not doubting you, but can you post any links by legit reporters saying that the primary goal of Malkin is to simply flip the Isles and make a profit?

 

[CupHolders]

Toronto’s playoff issues have little to do with their bottom-6. It’s their top players not producing and weak goaltending.

A mediocre 4th line center is worth it if they can use that money to upgrade a more important position.

Yet a team like Tampa transitioned from playoff chokers to Stanley Cup champions by investing in bottom six forwards (Goodrow, Coleman, etc.) and depth defenseman.

Do the Leafs have have fundamental problems compared to Tampa. IMO, yes they do.

But as you said, their problem was top six not producing. So you’re solution is taking money from elsewhere in the depth chart to double down on the inherent issue of putting too much money in a flawed top six.

You’re essentially championing the building strategy of the majority of HFBoards Leaf fans. Elite talent wins championships… and YES it does.

But they went too far in, with a top heavy lineup while trying to backfill depth positions.

 

[Goa1228]

What do you want for Parise from NJ?

If we sell, I hope he gets a chance to win with you guys. No one works harder than Parise.

 

[isles55]

Yet a team like Tampa transitioned from playoff chokers to Stanley Cup champions by investing in bottom six forwards (Goodrow, Coleman, etc.) and depth defenseman.

Do the Leafs have have fundamental problems compared to Tampa. IMO, yes they do.

But as you said, their problem was top six not producing. So you’re solution is taking money from elsewhere in the depth chart to double down on the inherent issue of putting too much money in a flawed top six.

You’re essentially championing the building strategy of the majority of HFBoards Leaf fans. Elite talent wins championships… and YES it does.

But they went too far in, with a top heavy lineup while trying to backfill depth positions.

And we have the complete opposite problem. I don’t see the relevance.

Tampa wins cups because players like Kucherov and Point can score over 30 points in a playoff season(Kucherov did this twice). Tampa also went to the finals without their 3rd line. We’re a long way away from being a good 3rd liner from winning a cup.

 

[doublechili]

In a burn-it-to-the-ground-and-contend-in-five-years rebuild, yeah, you trade him.

How many teams who are not Original 6 or located in FL or COL can actually do that? In 5 years the first set of your draft picks will be 23.

 

[CupHolders]

And we have the complete opposite problem. I don’t see the relevance.

Tampa wins cups because players like Kucherov and Point can score over 30 points in a playoff season(Kucherov did this twice). Tampa also went to the finals without their 3rd line. We’re a long way away from being a good 3rd liner from winning a cup.

This team was never going to be built or have the opportunity to be like Tampa. The best hope was something akin to Boston or St.Louis.

Only way to hope to be like Tampa was a complete tear down. Should the Isles have done so?

If the Islanders were not a complete embarrassment of a professional organization for the past 30 or so years… if they had a modicum of success like the Rangers even, I would’ve said yes absolutely.

But considering this organization’s past and lack of professional respectability I think the path chosen was more prudent. Isles achieved some form of integrity and stability. While still having a shot at a cup.

In the grand scheme of things what difference does it matter if you start a full rebuild a year, two or four from now?

Now imagine starting a rebuild five years ago AND it failing catastrophically again?

EDIT: Just wanted to add, that actually the Isles and Toronto would’ve benefited from some of each others lineups. I think Nelson and Pageau for the same cost as Tavares would’ve been better for them.

 

[danteipp]

This team was never going to be built or have the opportunity to be like Tampa. The best hope was something akin to Boston or St.Louis.

Only way to hope to be like Tampa was a complete tear down. Should the Isles have done so?

If the Islanders were not a complete embarrassment of a professional organization for the past 30 or so years… if they had a modicum of success like the Rangers even, I would’ve said yes absolutely.

But considering this organization’s past and lack of professional respectability I think the path chosen was more prudent. Isles achieved some form of integrity and stability. While still having a shot at a cup.

In the grand scheme of things what difference does it matter if you start a full rebuild a year, two or four from now?

Now imagine starting a rebuild five years ago AND it failing catastrophically again?

EDIT: Just wanted to add, that actually the Isles and Toronto would’ve benefited from some of each others lineups. I think Nelson and Pageau for the same cost as Tavares would’ve been better for them.

Over the last several years, I think there are a few teams that could have matched up well with the Isles, where a trade would have been mutually beneficial for both teams.

Besides Toronto, Columbus and Winnipeg come to mind.

Where the Isles could have moved a center and/or a defenseman (before expansion concerns helped gut the Isles depth in Toews and Leddy) for a top winger.

The problem is that GMs like Dubas, Jarmo and Chevy seem unwilling to make a trade that would bring better balance to their team, if it means giving up a little more pure talent in trade.

A lot of these GMs want to "win" the trade and can't see the forest for the trees. When the goal should be winning games, not just trades.

 

[The Wahligator]

This is what the Isles should be doing, albeit on a smaller scale. Trade Varlamov and Mayfield to recoup assets that can be used towards moving out some dead weight or acquiring players in the 25-28 age range that will fit in with our current core.

 

[The Real JT]

I’ll always be one of the guys railing against the GM for signing players into their mid 30s and beyond.

Players like JGP and Cizikas are useful now but past their prime years. What their trajectory will be no one knows but if you can get decent value for either one I’d do it. Of course we still need to have enough centers to fill any departure. That could be filled via trade or a B level UFA if there is one.

My theory on aging players is out the window with Nelson. He’s getting better with age. He has good size and a great shot. Since speed was never his strong suit he’ll probably continue to age well. He’s realistically one of the Isles most valuable trade chips but we’d be solidly in the lottery discussion without him. With next year’s first round pick potentially being unprotected and transferred to Vancouver he’s going nowhere for at least the next year.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

This is what the Isles should be doing, albeit on a smaller scale.

The Blues are out of it.

 

[SI]

In a burn-it-to-the-ground-and-contend-in-five-years rebuild, yeah, you trade him.

Not unless you are using those assets to grab someone younger with a higher ceiling like DeBrincat or Meier.

 

[IslesNorway]

I’ll always be one of the guys railing against the GM for signing players into their mid 30s and beyond.

Players like JGP and Cizikas are useful now but past their prime years. What their trajectory will be no one knows but if you can get decent value for either one I’d do it. Of course we still need to have enough centers to fill any departure. That could be filled via trade or a B level UFA if there is one.

My theory on aging players is out the window with Nelson. He’s getting better with age. He has good size and a great shot. Since speed was never his strong suit he’ll probably continue to age well. He’s realistically one of the Isles most valuable trade chips but we’d be solidly in the lottery discussion without him. With next year’s first round pick potentially being unprotected and transferred to Vancouver he’s going nowhere for at least the next year.

Fully agree. Signing and trading for 30+ players is the way to ensure this team is going nowhere for years to come. Rule No. 1 should be never to sign any player aged 30+ to more than 2 or 3 years. I mean, six years for Cizikas?? He is a fine player and loyal servant to the club but that way the roster never changes and goes stale. The more multi year dela the GM hands out, the more crippled he will be when it comes to trades, UFAs and upgrading the roster.

If some team is willing to take on any of our players with long term contracts then trading them is a no brainer, really.