Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2023-24: Hotel California

[mm11]

Well, there you go. FL built a regular season team that gets fancy stats, but can’t push through adversity. Lou built a team that certainly doesn’t get fancy stats beyond GA, but can push through adversity and go deeper. Barzal benefits from the team that Lou built (see Isles vs PIT), whereas Barkov does not get the same benefit, which is kinda why FL made the Tkachuk acquisition - they know they lack that element (and TOR just thinks they’ll eventually get it…).

Begs the question: do you prefer regular season shiny success or boring advancing playoff round wins?

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Begs the question: do you prefer regular season shiny success or boring advancing playoff round wins?

I prefer picks and prospects, personally.

 

[MJF]

Begs the question: do you prefer regular season shiny success or boring advancing playoff round wins?

It shouldn’t be an either-or question? The answer is BOTH.

Do you prefer a team that has to struggle to make the playoffs every year?

 

[mm11]

I prefer picks and prospects, personally.

and draft parties! they were a blast!

It shouldn’t be an either-or question? The answer is BOTH.

Do you prefer a team that has to struggle to make the playoffs every year?

if had to choose I'll take the playoff wins, but in essence you are correct sir

 

[leeroggy]

Begs the question: do you prefer regular season shiny success or boring advancing playoff round wins?

- What do you think? - Can't we have both?

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[Top Corner]

This is a truly stupid comment.

Why would you say it’s stupid comment? Because you say so !
It’s a point of view, that in my opinion, Lou hasn’t made an on ice talent impact, in my opinion, his claim to fame related to the on ice product was the Hire of Trotz . When his time with the Isles is done , the teams current and future hopes will be no closer to the cup than all his predecessors

 

[Doshell Propivo]

Why would you say it’s stupid comment? Because you say so !
It’s a point of view, that in my opinion, Lou hasn’t made an on ice talent impact, in my opinion, his claim to fame related to the on ice product was the Hire of Trotz . When his time with the Isles is done , the teams current and future hopes will be no closer to the cup than all his predecessors

It's stupid to compare him to Snow and Milbury (and Maloney). We just had decades of some of the worst GM's in the history of the sport. We finally get a true pro who restores the credibility of the franchise, a hall of famer no less, and at the slightest sign of adversity you shit all over him, declare all of his moves as horrible and compare him to those bozos. Sorry but yes, that is STUPID.

I admit it is completely valid to criticize him. All good. I probably agree with you on many of them. But some of these comments are hyperbole and a bit ridiculous.

 

[seafoam]

Yeah I know it’s early but Kadri would be the team’s leading scorer.

 

[Big L]

It's stupid to compare him to Snow and Milbury (and Maloney). We just had decades of some of the worst GM's in the history of the sport. We finally get a true pro who restores the credibility of the franchise, a hall of famer no less, and at the slightest sign of adversity you shit all over him, declare all of his moves as horrible and compare him to those bozos. Sorry but yes, that is STUPID.

I admit it is completely valid to criticize him. All good. I probably agree with you on many of them. But some of these comments are hyperbole and a bit ridiculous.

Welcome to hfboards

 

[12Dog]

What would a Sorokin extension look like?
Cap going up
Goalies are hard to figure
To me can not get caught up like Montreal did with Price
7X7? Fair?

Does either side want to go shorter term?
Goalie valuation?
Not my strong suit

 

[seafoam]

What would a Sorokin extension look like?
Cap going up
Goalies are hard to figure
To me can not get caught up like Montreal did with Price
7X7? Fair?

Does either side want to go shorter term?
Goalie valuation?
Not my strong suit

8 x 10 with full NMC and all the money with bonus up front. Bobrovsky got a similar deal before news about a cap increase was out there.

He’s going to want to get paid and I don’t blame him. He started in the NHL late and is a world class talent.

 

[Top Corner]

It's stupid to compare him to Snow and Milbury (and Maloney). We just had decades of some of the worst GM's in the history of the sport. We finally get a true pro who restores the credibility of the franchise, a hall of famer no less, and at the slightest sign of adversity you shit all over him, declare all of his moves as horrible and compare him to those bozos. Sorry but yes, that is STUPID.

I admit it is completely valid to criticize him. All good. I probably agree with you on many of them. But some of these comments are hyperbole and a bit ridiculous.

Here’s why it’s not a stupid comment, many great hockey players are in the hall of fame hockey and I can tell you almost all, if not all , were NOT playing the standard of hockey that got them in the hall at the end of their career. The game changed since Lou had his great years and from what I’ve seen Lou hasn’t . Does it make him shitty , NO but maybe Average like a lot of the Hall of fame players referred to above at the end of their career’s

 

[seafoam]

Currently second best goal differential in the conference.

 

[SI]

Currently second best goal differential in the conference.

This is why they are not a bubble team and a clear playoff team IMO- Sorokin, D, the character- locker room make up, and Now the PK makes this team a level up.

I do understand the lack of elite Fs on the roster mainly on the wing may be the Achilles heal of this team - but this a good hockey team… they play the right way and they will be more successful than some early predictions. if they can keep up this production - over 3 goals a game they will have 100 points and be a team no one wants to face in the playoffs.

There are so many teams with elite F’s that have sacrificed their roster construction and cap situation for that luxury. But those teams are a MESS. Canucks, Leafs, Panthers to name a few.

That was a big win yesterday on the road against a very good hockey team.

 

[The Real JT]

Shilling for poor asset management...

Not a good look.

Gettin' paid for that?

There are times to cut bait on former first round picks and still get a decent return. That might mean finding the right partner (Chia I’m looking at you) or selling early enough when you realize the player won’t ever be as good as you expected. At year 3 or 4 you’re likely getting nothing of value in return.

Look at the Isles first round picks that have become solid NHL players. Nearly all of them ascended steadily post-draft in each league they played in.

Now look at the underperforming picks: MDC, Bellows, JHS and Nino. They all had hiccups in their development in the first or second post-draft year.

Just saying. Fish or cut bait. Maybe just draft better. Yeah, that too.

 

[CupHolders]

Fourth line looks great. I believe rest from long offseason and pride of last year's failure are fueling the resurgence.

Once the Isles get past this stretch (after thanksgiving) I'd like to see Martin and Clutterbuck subbed in for when possible.

No more than ~60 total games for Martin hopefully. Johnston get's the remaining games. Clutterbuck will be harder to take out due to the penalty kill. But ideally he only gets 70/75.

 

[CupHolders]

Well, there you go. FL built a regular season team that gets fancy stats, but can’t push through adversity. Lou built a team that certainly doesn’t get fancy stats beyond GA, but can push through adversity and go deeper. Barzal benefits from the team that Lou built (see Isles vs PIT), whereas Barkov does not get the same benefit, which is kinda why FL made the Tkachuk acquisition - they know they lack that element (and TOR just thinks they’ll eventually get it…).

Criticsim of Barzal in (Isles vs. Pitt) in 2021, is warranted. Still don't see how that one series has come to define Barzal's overall playoff career.

As for FLA, it will be interesting to see how that plays out. Tkachuk has rep as gritty and highly skilled player. One assumes that would carry well into the playoffs. It actually has not, yet.

So on both these points (Barzal playoff disappointment) and (Tkachuk playoff player) seems more narrative driven then actual indicators of what has happened to date.

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

Didn’t the franchise move that Reinhart guy at precisely the ‘right’ time? The problem seems the team has drafted guys that have a high washout factor, including Reinhart.

Yes, Snow did that. And it was glorious.

My whole beef with Lou (and this beef didn't start with Bellows) is that we don't get this kind of thing from him. Lou doesn't make lateral moves or rehash picks.

He has shown no inclination to know when to cut the line - and then get it done.

This is his fifth season here.

JHS was a high risk move by a team desperate to capitalize on a dropping talented player. However, the player seemed like kryptonite and anyone that drafted him knew that, Snow was just the bonehead that did, no matter what he produced under Weight.

I'd argue that in Trotz' first season, when Ho-Sang was given his little shot with minimal ice time and didn't produce much, but we just kept winning like 10 straight, and then they we sent him back down.... That was the time to move him.

And I can't imagine Snow and Trotz didn't already know right then and there that he was not part of their plans.

The Bellows draft was mostly junk and tons of first round land mines. ANA didn’t even qualify their pick from that draft this past offseason.

Why do we bother trying to relativize such things? Are we fans in the business of expecting our team's first rounders to fail, always looking to say "Well, it wasn't that good of a draft anyways" as an excuse?

If you ask me, that's just a defeatist cop out.

And an exercise in futility, because we could just as easily start pondering, "Why didn't we pick up Tage Thompson, who went 25th, or heck, Alex Debrincat, who went in the second round?"

I'm rooting for my favorite team to bring in a future part of the puzzle with every pick it takes, no matter how solid any given draft is perceived to be (and believe me, I busy myself with the draft in an above-average manner). I know most aren't going to turn out well, but draft picks are assets and currency. And every GM knows that. Some are better at this part of the game than others.

You'd think the eldest among them would understand that better than anyone.

Since we're on the topic, at the end of the day, Bellows was a first rounder in that draft coming off a 66-goal season for the USNTDP, which is one of the top producers of NHL talent on the planet. You do that there, much less as the son of a former goalscoring NHLer, then you're going in first round of every single draft that takes place.

I won't even go into the ensuing 41 goals in 56 WHL games, the 9 goals in 7 WJC games, the 35-goal pace in his second AHL season or the very limited looks he got the past two seasons... That management decides he's not necessarily part of the equation for the current team is not a problem.

That management doesn't turn him into another asset is a negative point in evaluating the efficiency of this general manager.

As for Steel, he went 30th overall and as (greatly) opposed to our Islanders, Anaheim has been adding picks, prospects, and bodies left and right. They've got a whole different prospect - and NHL - situation than we do.

That they decided not to continue on with Steel has absolutely zero bearing on the perception that the Isles needlessly lost Bellows for nothing, especially with the background of the circumstances of doing nothing with the forward crew all summer, then signing him for eyebrow-raising contract, then adding Soshnikov out of nowhere despite a forward contract logjam, and then giving Bellows but a 1-game look before losing him.

It all just looks like Lou messed up here.

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

There are times to cut bait on former first round picks and still get a decent return. That might mean finding the right partner (Chia I’m looking at you) or selling early enough when you realize the player won’t ever be as good as you expected. At year 3 or 4 you’re likely getting nothing of value in return.

Look at the Isles first round picks that have become solid NHL players. Nearly all of them ascended steadily post-draft in each league they played in.

Now look at the underperforming picks: MDC, Bellows, JHS and Nino. They all had hiccups in their development in the first or second post-draft year.

Just saying. Fish or cut bait. Maybe just draft better. Yeah, that too.

Interestingly, Snow was clearly a "cut bait" guy. Nino, Strome, Reinhart... In essence, all ultimately decent to great moves.

We're still waiting for this GM to get it done just once.

Three former firsts already out of the picture without any form of return...

 

[YearlyLottery]

Yes, Snow did that. And it was glorious.

My whole beef with Lou (and this beef didn't start with Bellows) is that we don't get this kind of thing from him. Lou doesn't make lateral moves or rehash picks.

He has shown no inclination to know when to cut the line - and then get it done.

This is his fifth season here.



I'd argue that in Trotz' first season, when Ho-Sang was given his little shot with minimal ice time and didn't produce much, but we just kept winning like 10 straight, and then they we sent him back down.... That was the time to move him.

And I can't imagine Snow and Trotz didn't already know right then and there that he was not part of their plans.



Why do we bother trying to relativize such things? Are we fans in the business of expecting our team's first rounders to fail, always looking to say "Well, it wasn't that good of a draft anyways" as an excuse?

If you ask me, that's just a defeatist cop out.

And an exercise in futility, because we could just as easily start pondering, "Why didn't we pick up Tage Thompson, who went 25th, or heck, Alex Debrincat, who went in the second round?"

I'm rooting for my favorite team to bring in a future part of the puzzle with every pick it takes, no matter how solid any given draft is perceived to be (and believe me, I busy myself with the draft in an above-average manner). I know most aren't going to turn out well, but draft picks are assets and currency. And every GM knows that. Some are better at this part of the game than others.

You'd think the eldest among them would understand that better than anyone.

Since we're on the topic, at the end of the day, Bellows was a first rounder in that draft coming off a 66-goal season for the USNTDP, which is one of the top producers of NHL talent on the planet. You do that there, much less as the son of a former goalscoring NHLer, then you're going in first round of every single draft that takes place.

I won't even go into the ensuing 41 goals in 56 WHL games, the 9 goals in 7 WJC games, the 35-goal pace in his second AHL season or the very limited looks he got the past two seasons... That management decides he's not necessarily part of the equation for the current team is not a problem.

That management doesn't turn him into another asset is a negative point in evaluating the efficiency of this general manager.

As for Steel, he went 30th overall and as (greatly) opposed to our Islanders, Anaheim has been adding picks, prospects, and bodies left and right. They've got a whole different prospect - and NHL - situation than we do.

That they decided not to continue on with Steel has absolutely zero bearing on the perception that the Isles needlessly lost Bellows for nothing, especially with the background of the circumstances of doing nothing with the forward crew all summer, then signing him for eyebrow-raising contract, then adding Soshnikov out of nowhere despite a forward contract logjam, and then giving Bellows but a 1-game look before losing him.

It all just looks like Lou messed up here.

I get the thought process here. I really do. I just do not see the skating ability in Bellows to be anything more than a third liner. I am also curious what the organization thought of him since the PED's and how that changed trade value around the league.

 

[IslesNorway]

Knowing when to cut ties is something the Islanders are not good at. If s high pick doesn't show enough with a certain time frame, he should be moved. Bellows is just the last in line so far. Bode Wilde is next.

 

[Chardo]

It may be poor asset management, in that something is better than nothing, but I don't lose sleep over missing out on a late draft pick that's generally useless anyway.

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

Knowing when to cut ties is something the Islanders are not good at. If s high pick doesn't show enough with a certain time frame, he should be moved. Bellows is just the last in line so far. Bode Wilde is next.

The Bode Wilde boat has drifted by.

He should have been moved the second it wasn't going to work out with the vaccination policy.

That was the time to get it done.

 

[IslesNorway]

The Bode Wilde boat has drifted by.

He should have been moved the second it wasn't going to work out with the vaccination policy.

That was the time to get it done.

My point exactly. Could have got a late pick or prospect then. Now he is worthless.

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

I get the thought process here. I really do. I just do not see the skating ability in Bellows to be anything more than a third liner.

If you, as a fan, can make that assessment, when do think the most experienced GM on the planet came to that conclusion?

I mean, he must have, right, at least to the tune of "I'm ready to risk losing him for nothing on waivers"?

Was it after 14 games as a pure extra on the taxi squad in the Covid-shortened season?
Was it after 19 points in 45 games of often minimal ice time in his first "full" NHL season?
Was it after 7 points in 12 games to conclude that first "full" NHL season?
Was it after his WC appearance for Team USA?
Was it after a noteable contract in a summer where he added 0 players to his forward group?
Was it after one game this season?

Think of Bellows what one will, this doesn't make sense.

Lou f$%&ed up here.

And when three internal first rounders become nothing for your team and nothing for your asset bin, then that's a trend of f$%&ing up.

I am also curious what the organization thought of him since the PED's and how that changed trade value around the league.

Interesting pondering. Here are some trades from the past few days:

Hmmm, looks like exactly the kind of thing Lou could have easily been involved in - if his intent was to part with Bellows.

It may be poor asset management, in that something is better than nothing, but I don't lose sleep over missing out on a late draft pick that's generally useless anyway.

Sweet dreams.