Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIV

[Winston2018]

Glad to see the respect ADA is getting!!

 

[True Blue]

My point about those teams was simply, you never know from one season to the next. Let alone 4-5 years down the road.

Of course not. But there is building the proper way and there's constantly applying band aids.

But do you really think it's going to be 5 years before guys like Hajek, Miller, Lindgren, Lundqvist, Rykov, Ruenan start contributing? If that's the case, they've already failed. They all won't work out but if two or three do that's great.

There's being in the lineup and there's meaningfully contributing. Hajek and Lindgren will be rookies next year. There is no guarantee that that the Rangers will be able to find a way for Lindgren to break through the glut next year. Miller is a freshman in college, and lest you forget he only started to play defense relatively not that long ago. Lundqvist, Rykov, Ruenan are not even in North America. It may take them a few years to develop and another several after that to be able to start to be meanigful contributors. And that is presuming that they are NHL caliber players at all. That's not failure, that is being in the real world.

And why did you leave Shestyorkin off? Isn't he Lundqvist's heir apparent?

Is he here? Have you seen him play? People would like for him to be the heir apparent, but how can you bank on it before he has even stepped onto the ice in North America?

I don't believe adding Panarin makes them instant contenders. I'm not really sure I even want them to sign him to be honest but I can see why other's do. He's a stud. And if they do, it doesn't automatically signal that the rebuild is over.

No one is disputing that he is a stud. What people are disputing is whether or not he will be a stud by the time this franchise is ready to start to become legit contenders.

Again, if you bring him over, are you also bringing over support for him? Or are you just going to pay him max dollars and max years to do it with very little help?

Every season brings new opportunities, guys become available, other guys fizzle out. I'm just not holding my breath for a top 3 pick in the next 2-3 years and I think there are other ways to build a championship team without them.

No one is holding breath and not many are disputing that you can build a championship without a top 2 pick.

 

[True Blue]

Well rather than “have to” I’d like them to kill it this year. Especially if TB wins the cup and DAL somehow makes it to the WCF. Get a top player with the high first and pick up some talent that falls in the late first.

You and me both

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

We need our own controlled lead dog.

That doesn't mean that you can't add good players from the outside, but we should until we have ours.

 

[EdJovanovski]

How Vegas got there is a different story, but there are reasons as to why it is not a story that will be very easy to duplicate. Bringing the Devils into the conversation is not exactly apple to apple because they have been a MASH unit, and oh by the way has been playing without the NHL MVP for how long now? The Isles have a good team. It is much easier to see them being good than the Rangers.

How do I know that they won't be legit for another 4-5 years? First of all, that does not mean that I think that they will not begin to be competitive again for another 5 years. Second of all, take a look around you . You still have 2 years of Staal, Shattenkirk & Smith to deal with. Are you ready to anoint Georgiev ready to take over every day goalie duties? Behind THIS defense?

Sure ZBad and Kreider are great. But what else is there? Lots of promise and not a lot of substance. The kids still need to take lots more steps forward. And asking 19 & 20 year olds to become instantly top 6 forwards is exactly how you get Edmonton or Carolina or Florida. There is no legit 2nd line right now. They are in asset gathering mode. So if you simply add Panarin to this assortment, do you believe that they become instant contenders? Or are you planning on bringing in the premium free agent and then going out and obtaining players to surround him with?

Let's pretend and say you bring in both of them. Do they make this team a legit Cup contender? If the answer is no, then what are you doing to address that? Going out and getting other UFAs to surround them and provide support? Maybe trading some assets you acquired for the support? Does that sound like someone who is sticking to the plan?

Worrying about money is worrying about cap space tied up into long term contracts, rife with NMC/NTC just when the Rangers are beginning to turn the corner and become contenders.

Who cares? Just because you can spend does not mean you should.

Again, that is fantastic. Now what does the rest of the team look like? If it looks like what you have on the ice now, what difference does he make?

Of course we’d be a contender if we added a franchise winger & generational dman lol

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Of course we’d be a contender if we added a franchise winger & generational dman lol

Yeah, it’s that simple

Might make the 8th seed with those two. Might.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Of course not. But there is building the proper way and there's constantly applying band aids.

There's being in the lineup and there's meaningfully contributing. Hajek and Lindgren will be rookies next year. There is no guarantee that that the Rangers will be able to find a way for Lindgren to break through the glut next year. Miller is a freshman in college, and lest you forget he only started to play defense relatively not that long ago. Lundqvist, Rykov, Ruenan are not even in North America. It may take them a few years to develop and another several after that to be able to start to be meanigful contributors. And that is presuming that they are NHL caliber players at all. That's not failure, that is being in the real world.

Is he here? Have you seen him play? People would like for him to be the heir apparent, but how can you bank on it before he has even stepped onto the ice in North America?

No one is disputing that he is a stud. What people are disputing is whether or not he will be a stud by the time this franchise is ready to start to become legit contenders.

Again, if you bring him over, are you also bringing over support for him? Or are you just going to pay him max dollars and max years to do it with very little help?

No one is holding breath and not many are disputing that you can build a championship without a top 2 pick.

Hajek, Lindgren and Rykov are all is 21, two of them have to be contributing (not Norris Trophy winners but competent) NHL defenseman the year after next. Deangelo is 23. That's half your D right there. Without even factoring in Miller, Lindqvist, and Ruenan. It's like, you can't have anyone on the roster that's over 25 but oh, by the way, our defenseman won't be ready till they're 26.

And is Shestyorken not the guy? Didn't he have a crazy year in the second best league in the world? I dunno, that's what people here are saying. So now he's a question mark? Odd.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Of course we’d be a contender if we added a franchise winger & generational dman lol

No we wouldn't.

 

[Off Sides]

Until they really know what they have out of all this rebuilding stuff, I'm not sure how they could know whether or not signing a Panarin (really anything that requires a long , expensive clause filled deal) now is the right move or not.

If down the road they find they really need a D and they want to sign one, which I think is far more plausible, and they already committed to Paranin's contract and are close to the ceiling, where they did in fact produce something internally which was at least somewhat comparable to him at wing, that cap space at that point would be better used on that D they really need. When I hear the word flexibility uttered that is sort of how I'm perceiving it.

Mostly just using D, wing as examples, they could need a center or even a goalie, yet not a wing, basically point being until much of this including what they have not even drafted yet matures at least a little who knows what the best use of that future cap space may be.

 

[romba]

i dont know what the hell i was trying to say, just ignore that whole comment

Love the honesty lol. I think you were going down the sarcastic route of 'hey he'd fit right in here then!' and got a little lost

 

[True Blue]

Of course we’d be a contender if we added a franchise winger & generational dman lol

Really? This team plus Panarin & Karlsson = legit Cup contender?

 

[RGY]

Really? This team plus Panarin & Karlsson = legit Cup contender?

Definitely would not say cup contender, at least not next year.

But in two years. The Roster could be much more equipped if the development our players goes as planned.

 

[True Blue]

Hajek, Lindgren and Rykov are all is 21, two of them have to be contributing (not Norris Trophy winners but competent) NHL defenseman the year after next.

When? When do they have to be contributing? They are not yet in the NHL. Between the 3 of them, only Lingren is in North America and has all of one game NHLs worth of experience. So now again, I ask you what is your time line for them to become legit contributors?

Deangelo is 23. That's half your D right there. Without even factoring in Miller, Lindqvist, and Ruenan.

DeAngelo looks promising right now. So what you have is one NHL caliber defenseman, one AHL rookie with 1 game's worth of experience, 1 AHL rookie with 5 game's worth of experience, one college freshman and 3 players who have not stepped onto the ice in North America as they have been playing in their respective European leagues. And you an unequivocally state that is the Rangers starting defense? Again I ask you, when?

It's like, you can't have anyone on the roster that's over 25 but oh, by the way, our defenseman won't be ready till they're 26.

Can you answer the question please? At what point do you believe that a Rykov or a Miller or a Lingqvist or a Reunan will be legit defensemen at the NHL level? When does this happen? Is next year? Year after? When?

And is Shestyorken not the guy? Didn't he have a crazy year in the second best league in the world? I dunno, that's what people here are saying. So now he's a question mark? Odd.

What do you have to hang your hat on to believe that he is THE guy? His play in a league that is not the NHL? What people are saying that they HOPE he becomes? What is more odd, wanting to be patient and see what you actually have or wanting to bring over a kid from the KHL and declare him a bonafide NHL starter before he has ever played a game?

At last check the Henrik Lundqvists of the world are the exception and not the rule.

 

[True Blue]

Definitely would not say cup contender, at least not next year.

But in two years. The Roster could be much more equipped if the development our players goes as planned.

What goes as planned? Are you projecting Anderson and Chytil being legit top -6 fowards? Who plays on the first two defense pairings in two years? Who is the starting goalie?

And are they contending or are they CONTENDING?

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

When? When do they have to be contributing? They are not yet in the NHL. Between the 3 of them, only Lingren is in North America and has all of one game NHLs worth of experience. So now again, I ask you what is your time line for them to become legit contributors?

DeAngelo looks promising right now. So what you have is one NHL caliber defenseman, one AHL rookie with 1 game's worth of experience, 1 AHL rookie with 5 game's worth of experience, one college freshman and 3 players who have not stepped onto the ice in North America as they have been playing in their respective European leagues. And you an unequivocally state that is the Rangers starting defense? Again I ask you, when?

Can you answer the question please? At what point do you believe that a Rykov or a Miller or a Lingqvist or a Reunan will be legit defensemen at the NHL level? When does this happen? Is next year? Year after? When?

What do you have to hang your hat on to believe that he is THE guy? His play in a league that is not the NHL? What people are saying that they HOPE he becomes? What is more odd, wanting to be patient and see what you actually have or wanting to bring over a kid from the KHL and declare him a bonafide NHL starter before he has ever played a game?

At last check the Henrik Lundqvists of the world are the exception and not the rule.

Hajek didn't play a bunch of games before he separated his shoulder? Did I dream that? But yes, if two of Hajek, Deangelo, Rykov and Lindgren aren't able to play a reliable 20 minutes a night in 2020, as 23 and 25 year olds, Gorton did a lousy job. The rest, sure they'll take longer to develop and that's ok. But if you're telling me that this defense will still be a mess at the start of the 2020 season, with all the players they've traded for and drafted, then the organization failed.

It's funny, you're telling me it's weird that I'm hanging my hat on guys that have already been drafted and been playing professional hockey for a few years but it's totally normal for you to hang your hat on drafting some 18 year kid, who's playing in some junior league against other kids, a year and a half from now.

 

[bobbop]

It appears a lot of people have already given up on Brady Skeji. That may be premature.

 

[True Blue]

Hajek didn't play a bunch of games before he separated his shoulder? Did I dream that? The rest, sure they'll take longer to develop and that's ok. But if you're telling me that this defense will still be a mess at the start of the 2020 season, with all the players they've traded for and drafted, then the organization failed.

You did not dream him playing a whole 5 games. Is that considered a "bunch"?

But yes, if two of Hajek, Deangelo, Rykov and Lindgren aren't able to play a reliable 20 minutes a night in 2020, as 23 and 25 year olds, Gorton did a lousy job.

Hajek, Lindgren, Rykov will all be 25 in 4 years. 23 in two. You don't think that they may need some development time? Or are the Rangers just supposed to throw them into the fire, whether they are ready or not? You claim not to want to be Edmonton and yet want to seem to do the same thing.

Do you know how many years Girardi played in the minors? Do you know how many years it took for Zdeno Chara to be able to be a reliable NHL defenseman?

It's funny, you're telling me it's weird that I'm hanging my hat on guys that have already been drafted and been playing professional hockey for a few years but it's totally normal for you to hang your hat on drafting some 18 year kid, who's playing in some junior league against other kids, a year and a half from now.

First of all, please point out where I do that? Which of my statements even remotely alludes to that/

Second of all, when you state that you are hanging your hat on guys that have been playing professional hockey for a few years, let's not whitewash things. Playing professional hockey is one thing. Playing professional hockey in the NHL is another.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

It appears a lot of people have already given up on Brady Skeji. That may be premature.

I'm assuming he and Shattenkirk will still be here in two years. Unless he gets traded for another defenseman.

 

[brians1128]

I'm assuming he and Shattenkirk will still be here in two years. Unless he gets traded for another defenseman.

He's going in a deal for McAvoy.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

You did not dream him playing a whole 5 games. Is that considered a "bunch"?

Hajek, Lindgren, Rykov will all be 25 in 4 years. 23 in two. You don't think that they may need some development time? Or are the Rangers just supposed to throw them into the fire, whether they are ready or not? You claim not to want to be Edmonton and yet want to seem to do the same thing.

Do you know how many years Girardi played in the minors? Do you know how many years it took for Zdeno Chara to be able to be a reliable NHL defenseman?

First of all, please point out where I do that? Which of my statements even remotely alludes to that/

Second of all, when you state that you are hanging your hat on guys that have been playing professional hockey for a few years, let's not whitewash things. Playing professional hockey is one thing. Playing professional hockey in the NHL is another.

I was wrong about Rykov, I thought he was 23. And of course they need time, but you're talking about players that will have had multiple years of professional hockey under their belts at the start of the 2020 season. For a board infatuated with young players, we're all of a sudden very protective of players. I'm not even saying they need to be or they will become top 10 NHL defenseman but they should be able to play a regular shift. And Girardi was an undrafted free agent. The Rangers acquired Hajek, Lindgren and Rykov as part of trades. You can't compare the two.

So yeah, I'm hanging my hat on the fact that guys that have been drafted and played professional hockey for a few seasons, NHL or not, will contribute by 2020 as opposed to hoping some 18 year old in the QMJHL will become the savior of the franchise. The Rangers were bad this year, but there's teams that are worse. You think LA, Ottawa, Anaheim and whoever else are going to magically improve this offseason? Look, I'd be ecstatic if they landed Lafrenierre or got lucky with Hughes, but it doesn't mean they can't make other moves towards the future as well. I think the idea that you have to stick to a 4-5 year plan is flawed. There's too many variables out of your control.

 

[RangerBoy]

Smart man that Dave Maloney.

“I think Jeff Gorton and [assistant GM] Chris Drury have an idea you have to build from within,’’ Maloney said. “You can’t be mercenary, and I think this franchise has been mercenary for a particularly long time, and we have one Cup in 79 years.’’

While Maloney does believe the Rangers will need a superstar offensive player (or more than one) in order to be a contender coming out of the current rebuild, he doesn’t endorse the idea of tanking. Rather, he believes if the organization collects enough talent and molds that talent into a good team, it can then go out and acquire the final pieces it needs to get to the promised land.

Stephenson: Maloney optimistic about rebuild

The Rangers are not tanking on purpose. The team just plain sucks. Build from within and keep collecting young talent in trades. They need to hit on the 1st round picks. When the team is ready to win, go get the final pieces. That's not a self fulfilling prophecy. That's good and sound strategy.

No mercenaries.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Maloney knows whats up.

RIP @RGY

 

[kovazub94]

I’ve said this before, but I think the talk about how we didn’t ‘really’ try to tank this season is a construction after the fact.

Go back 1.5 years end tell this place that Gorton would make the moves he did at the deadline and everyone would have called that an extreme tanking job, we traded ‘every’ vet except Zucc and the tumors for futures. Didn’t pick up — any — real help during the summer.

Look at all teams that have finished 30-31st overall the last years. Our tank job is somewhat on par with those teams.

Context matters. The Rangers didn’t trade everyone in one swoop. Hayes and Zuke were left partly because the organization didn’t want to put prospects in positions they were not ready for and let them continue to develop without being simply overwhelmed and overpowered. They also brought in Nemchinov, Strome, McQuade and later added Lemieux. Next year Kravtsov and Hajek should join full time. Finally the biggest tell is that Lundqvist was “let” to stay and has played a lot of games.

Maybe it’s a chicken and egg thing but I see a thought through development plan rather than a plan firstly aimed at tanking this season.

Edit: oops, I called Namestnikov - Nemchinov. Freudian slip?

 

[kovazub94]

Do you want to sign Panarin to a big money long term deal? Hopefully Gorton doesn't.

Not wanting a free agent signed because it doesn’t fit in rebuild timeline or pay structure and calling him a loser (not a winner) are not they same things, right?

 

[Thirty One]

Not wanting a free agent signed because it doesn’t fit in rebuild timeline or pay structure and calling him a loser (not a winner) are not they same things, right?

I can confirm.