Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIV

[Amazing Kreiderman]

And, this will be his 2nd straight 80+pt season. 4th straight 70+pt season (with two different Org's)

He is elite and with the $$$

I'll say it again: Panarin's career LOW in a single season is still HIGHER than any Ranger not named Gaborik in the last 12 years

 

[pld459666]

Columbus has better pieces that we do and they may not even make the playoffs with him.

How is that a knock on him.

And I'd venture a guess that their better pieces look more pedestrian without Panarin

I'd also venture a guess that they are right there along with the Rangers in that 5-10 space with out Panarin.

 

[Fitzy]

Trading away good players and fielding a weak roster is 'Tanking on purpose"

No team in the league plays to lose- at least- not since the Penguins for super Mario.

 

[pld459666]

Columbus has better pieces that we do and they may not even make the playoffs with him.

At forward, after Cam and PLD, they have a bunch of busters

Their better assets are Zach and Seth.

Beyond that, again, busters

 

[Edge]

How is that a knock on him.

And I'd venture a guess that their better pieces look more pedestrian without Panarin

I'd also venture a guess that they are right there along with the Rangers in that 5-10 space with out Panarin.

But doesn’t that kind of support the point that the addition of Panarin doesn’t make the Rangers good, only less bad? Essentially moving us from the 5th pick to the 15th, and just outside of the playoffs?

 

[Heckler81]

A Kreider-Zibby-Panarin first line would probably be one of the best in the league. A Lemieux-Howden-Fast would be a great 3rd line.

I would trade Names and Vessey for a draft pick each. I would re-sign Hayes and have a
Chytil-Hayes-Buch second line.

Lias would start the year in the AHL.

I think that would be a great Forward group.

 

[Edge]

A Kreider-Zibby-Panarin first line would probably be one of the best in the league. A Lemieux-Howden-Fast would be a great 3rd line.

I would trade Names and Vessey for a draft pick each. I would re-sign Hayes and have a
Chytil-Hayes-Buch second line.

Lias would start the year in the AHL.

I think that would be a great Forward group.

Keeping in mind that with contracts, you’ve just added $18 million in free agents, with Kreider’s contract on the horizon, and 2/3 of your first line, and half your top six now has movement clauses.

So even if the Rangers sign Kreider, you’re now talking about nearly $30 million tied up in 4 forwards, each of whom will have movement clauses.

 

[pld459666]

But doesn’t that kind of support the point that the addition of Panarin doesn’t make the Rangers good, only less bad? Essentially moving us from the 5th pick to the 15th, and just outside of the playoffs?

That's fair, and I would agree with that position for those that are against going after him.

But it doesn't take away from who or what he is as a player.

I also look at this rebuild as an opportunity to collect assets with a dual mindset.

Not everyone, even if they develop as well or better than expected will be here

I have a feeling that during and between the 19-20-20-21 seasons if there is an opportunity to move assets for a young cost controlled player that can advance the process, the Rangers will make that move.

So, a signing of a Panarin will, imho, not be a wasted endeavor

 

[True Blue]

I was wrong about Rykov, I thought he was 23. And of course they need time, but you're talking about players that will have had multiple years of professional hockey under their belts at the start of the 2020 season.

You are now caught on the term "professional". Does that mean European leagues? Do those equate with playing in the NHL? What about college or Canadian juniors? Are those "professional"? Do they equate with playing in the NHL? Your demand is for players that have either not even spent a year in North America or college freshmen or those with NHL experience of 5 games or less to be ready to be legit 20 minute per night at a 1st or 2nd paring defensemen. That is exactly the teams that are (to use your words) in an eternal rebuild do. They throw kids into roles that they are not ready for.

I'm not even saying they need to be or they will become top 10 NHL defenseman but they should be able to play a regular shift.

No, you are asking kids that have never played in the NHL to be top 4 within two years. That's much more reasonable.

And Girardi was an undrafted free agent. The Rangers acquired Hajek, Lindgren and Rykov as part of trades. You can't compare the two.

What are you talking about? Who cares how they came into the organization? Development time is development time.

So yeah, I'm hanging my hat on the fact that guys that have been drafted and played professional hockey for a few seasons, NHL or not, will contribute by 2020 as opposed to hoping some 18 year old in the QMJHL will become the savior of the franchise.

This again? You know that a strawman argument is, right? That is seeming to debate a point but actually debating an argument that no one is presenting.

Point to where anything that I have said even remotely alludes to what you are claiming.

The Rangers were bad this year, but there's teams that are worse. You think LA, Ottawa, Anaheim and whoever else are going to magically improve this offseason?

There is not much that seperates the Rangers from those teams. And now the Rangers will be doing an entire season with no Hayes or Zucc, an older Henke and a further depreciated Stall, Shattenkirk & Smith.

Look, I'd be ecstatic if they landed Lafrenierre or got lucky with Hughes, but it doesn't mean they can't make other moves towards the future as well. I think the idea that you have to stick to a 4-5 year plan is flawed. There's too many variables out of your control.

I think the idea of loading up on UFA players to max years/max dollars contracts that are rife with NTC/NMC at this stage who by the time the Rangers are very ready compete will no longer be in their prime, is much more flawed.

 

[Edge]

That's fair, and I would agree with that position for those that are against going after him.

But it doesn't take away from who or what he is as a player.

I also look at this rebuild as an opportunity to collect assets with a dual mindset.

Not everyone, even if they develop as well or better than expected will be here

I have a feeling that during and between the 19-20-20-21 seasons if there is an opportunity to move assets for a young cost controlled player that can advance the process, the Rangers will make that move.

So, a signing of a Panarin will, imho, not be a wasted endeavor

Well I’ve alrwady beaten my points to death, so I’m not going to do it again. Nobody wants to read that crap again, including me.

But I will say my concern isn’t particularly tied to Panarin’s talent or skill in 2019.

 

[True Blue]

I feel like some posters here might be a bit on the younger side and don't exactly recall the dark age teams that were miserable. Bad drafting, band aid stars, and very little hope. Years without playoffs where they added little if any future talent. I think that time frame in my youth gave me PTSD.

Build the team the right way, then add the right players through trade or free agency. Build a core to compete for 8-10 years

Running out and signing Panarin and/or EK tomorrow is basically Lindros/Holik/Fluery 2.0. They don't automatically transform the team into a contender. They make you a bubble team that starts trading picks for an 'extra piece' to squeak into the postseason. I can see it already. "We need to add so we don't waste EK's best remaining years, and Panarin isn't getting any younger."

Having a draft or two then adding aging vets is the Malhotra/Lundmark/Brendl and now we are done philosophy.

The timing is every bit as important as the player that's brought in.

Very, very well said.

I think that people either do not remember the Dark Ages or just never went through it.

 

[Heckler81]

Keeping in mind that with contracts, you’ve just added $18 million in free agents, with Kreider’s contract on the horizon, and 2/3 of your first line, and half your top six now has movement clauses.

So even if the Rangers sign Kreider, you’re now talking about nearly $30 million tied up in 4 forwards, each of whom will have movement clauses.

Are you subtracting what Names and Vessey are getting paid?

Names cap hit is 4m and Vessey is 2.28m. So that’s over 6m deducted from your 18m number.

 

[egelband]

This is the only way I wouldn’t be mad we signed him.

Agreed. If he takes Henrik-type money (oh, poor man!) it makes sense. That's what a good Number Two makes these days, I think. But if he demands Top Guy money, I wouldn't do it.
Every roster spot has a price more-or-less. And his spot is probably number two or three on a good team. Not number one. So if he's willing to shoot in properly, it's interesting.

 

[pld459666]

Well I’ve alrwady beaten my points to death, so I’m not going to do it again. Nobody wants to read that crap again, including me.

But I will say my concern isn’t particularly tied to Panarin’s talent or skill in 2019.

I hear ya and it's a legit concern about the talent and skill in the years beyond the next 2 for sure.

I, personally, feel that with the limited hockey miles that Panarin has accumulated before crossing the pond, that he's the type of talent that will be producing in the 5-7 years of any contract he signs.

So, if we are looking at REALLY getting after things starting in 21-22 season, I'm comfortable with signing the player.

But that's me

 

[Fitzy]

Honestly I'm surprised that Gorton hasn't taken a one year bad contract in exchange for draft assets yet.

If we don't sign Panarin or any other significant free agents, I'd be extremely open to taking on a one-year-length bad contract in the offseason in exchange for a young asset. Letting dead cap space just lie there doesn't do anything for anyone.

 

[Heckler81]

Honestly I'm surprised that Gorton hasn't taken a one year bad contract in exchange for draft assets yet.

If we don't sign Panarin or any other significant free agents, I'd be extremely open to taking on a one-year-length bad contract in the offseason in exchange for a young asset. Letting dead cap space just lie there doesn't do anything for anyone.

If we don’t sign Panarin. I wouldn’t mind trading WPG 1st round pick to EDM for there 1st (5-8) and Lucic.

 

[Fitzy]

If we don’t sign Panarin. I wouldn’t mind trading WPG 1st round pick to EDM for there 1st (5-8) and Lucic.

Lucic's deal is way too long and would interfere with our rebuilt roster.

 

[Mac n Gs]

I know there’s a fear of having a decade-long rebuild. But if this team is still getting lottery picks in 3 or 4 years, they’ve royally screwed up.

In that case, EK or Panarin was not going to make a difference, because they would’ve essentially been an oasis in the wasteland.

It’ll be an indictment that they more than likely failed to identify talent outside of the first round. It’s something that I’ll remain to be critical to be of Gorton’s tenure until they prove me wrong.

 

[pld459666]

Very, very well said.

I think that people either do not remember the Dark Ages or just never went through it.

I experienced the Dark Ages.

I don't equate this to that.

The players they went after then were older aging g guys on the back nine of their careers.

I don't view Panarin in that same light on any level.

EK65, yes. But more because I believe he's breaking g down as a player

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

Rangers have $18 million in cap space. RFAs won't cost much and can be bridged in a worst case scenario. They don't need to do much on defense (stay away from EK65 please). 13 forwards to fill a roster. A lot of spots already taken so there has to be some movement.

Ziba, Kreider, Buch, Chytil, Howden, Anderson, Strome, Lemiuex is eight. Room for five more. Nieves is the 12th-13th.

Kravstov. Sign Panarin. One of Hughes/Kakko/Dach/Cozens/Zegras.

Plenty of cap space to sign a Tanev/Simmonds/etc.

Hopefully Virta can come over and steal a spot. If Gettinger and Meskannen improve, awesome.

Fast will probably be back. He doesn't have much value. Ending the last two seasons with injuries. Deadline trade?

Vesey and Names should be traded or packaged with something bigger. Names at 50% retained can probably get a 2nd.

On D you figure Hajek is ready to make the jump. Maybe they sign some bargain person who has good analytics in the Cleasson/Clendenning school of thought. I don't see Cleassson being offered a contract. Just a numbers game.

Brendan Smith is the guy in the office who is only still there because of pending litigation. He gets to do various office admin jobs that have no real impact on the org.

Basically something has to give. There's going to be a major trade or shakeup. They're not going into next year with the same forward group and only adding one big UFA and maybe if they're lucky a high pick. Need to improve the PK, need to improve the leadership.

 

[haohmaru]

But doesn’t that kind of support the point that the addition of Panarin doesn’t make the Rangers good, only less bad? Essentially moving us from the 5th pick to the 15th, and just outside of the playoffs?

Without seeing who else they sign and how their younger players develop, speculating on where they finish has little or no merit.

The question is what is the goal of the Rangers? Is it to make the team better and better or is it to keep securing higher draft picks? Panarin makes the team better, each and every year he's on the team.

My hesitation with him is the contract/term he'd get, not that he doesn't instantly improve the squad for YEARS.

 

[Beacon]

The only people being rigid are those who feel the rest of us feel we MUST be awful next year and MUST get 1OA in order to be happy.

No, we just don't want a half-assed rebuilding. This team is not a Panarin away from Cup contention. It is not even Panarin+EK away, even if there was a way to get them both.

Getting those 2 puts us in the playoffs, maybe. Even that isnt certain. Just one of them doesn't even come close.

We were a non playoff team last year. Since then we downgraded McDonaugh to Howden, Nash to Strome, Hayes to Lemieux, Miller to Names, Zuccarello and Grabner to Lias and Chytil.

All the players we got are marginal at this point. Sure, they may improve with age, but they aren't there yet. I'm not even counting the marginal guys we lost, but we lost a ton of just the leading guys.

You can upgrade on Mcdonagh and Zuccarello with EK and Panarin, but what replaces the effort given to us by Hayes, Nash and Grabner a year ago? And let's remember we were a non-playoff team even then.

How does Panarin alone get us to be better than the 20017-18 squad? Oh yeah, I forgot, Kravtsov will save the day as a rookie, just as Lias and Chytil saved us this year, and Buchnevich and Duclair saved us a few years ago. Sure thing...

 

[Edge]

Without seeing who else they sign and how their younger players develop, speculating on where they finish has little or no merit.

The question is what is the goal of the Rangers? Is it to make the team better and better or is it to keep securing higher draft picks? Panarin makes the team better, each and every year he's on the team.

My hesitation with him is the contract/term he'd get, not that he doesn't instantly improve the squad for YEARS.

Of course it’s speculation everything in this thread is speculation, on both sides of the debate. I totally own that.

As for my comment, it was in specific response to someone saying that Columbus without Panarin is essentially the Rangers.

 

[Ori]

We have been downgraded the team since they moved Stepan, but when Nash retired early and we manage to get a 1st and it was easy to see that was the right decision, because no one saw that coming not even the current Boston GM about Rick Nash retirement based on concussion history.
However it will be almost impossible to replace Zucc skillset so if we don`t get a 1st in return this summer - it was a mistake to move him in my opinion unless Jeff thought full tank next year (2019-20 season) which I doubt consider his age and veteran status which is so important for young prospects.
Also I don`t see Rangers going to try to resign Zucc as UFA, but who knows what they talked about behind closed doors and meetings some months before TDL.

And what is the normal schedule for a rebuild? And that is a good question and hard to answer, because we are a little over year into it without our elite player. So the rebuild will continue until a new star arise maybe in 2019. And if we don`t hit the rebuild continue while prospects develop until the 2020 draft which is rumored to be a very strong draft - so it will surprise me if Jeff Gorton suddenly sign Erik Karlsson or Panarin in this summer window in 2019.

What we need is to save cap for future core and players so Larry Brooks have someone to write about and he has been relative quiet of late since he was fond to write and interview Zucc too to get a different angle sometimes in his sport articles. And the owners can`t expect sellout concerning tickets each game in the rebuild phase and I admit it`s less exciting to watch when games are kind of meaningless right now end of this season, but it`s about the future and build a very strong foundation in the draft is important.
Personally I enjoy watching young prospects so important to be patience and dont rush it.

 

[haohmaru]

Yes, we’ve been over this. Everything is speculation, on both sides of the debate. We don’t need to put a warning on every comment.

Is it speculation that the Rangers would be a better team with Panarin? I don't think it's really up for debate at all and that's the point I'm trying to make.