Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIV

[kovazub94]

I can confirm.

I don’t trust your confirmation, it could be sarcastic.

 

[Barnaby]

I feel like some posters here might be a bit on the younger side and don't exactly recall the dark age teams that were miserable. Bad drafting, band aid stars, and very little hope. Years without playoffs where they added little if any future talent. I think that time frame in my youth gave me PTSD.

Build the team the right way, then add the right players through trade or free agency. Build a core to compete for 8-10 years

Running out and signing Panarin and/or EK tomorrow is basically Lindros/Holik/Fluery 2.0. They don't automatically transform the team into a contender. They make you a bubble team that starts trading picks for an 'extra piece' to squeak into the postseason. I can see it already. "We need to add so we don't waste EK's best remaining years, and Panarin isn't getting any younger."

Having a draft or two then adding aging vets is the Malhotra/Lundmark/Brendl and now we are done philosophy.

The timing is every bit as important as the player that's brought in.

 

[Avery16]

It appears a lot of people have already given up on Brady Skeji. That may be premature.

I feel like if Kreider is getting moved, there’s little reason to not see what we could get for Skjei also.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

I feel like if Kreider is getting moved, there’s little reason to not see what we could get for Skjei also.

I get the feeling Skjei is going to be actively shopped this offseason.

 

[Matt4776]

I feel like some posters here might be a bit on the younger side and don't exactly recall the dark age teams that were miserable. Bad drafting, band aid stars, and very little hope. Years without playoffs where they added little if any future talent. I think that time frame in my youth gave me PTSD.

Build the team the right way, then add the right players through trade or free agency. Build a core to compete for 8-10 years

Running out and signing Panarin and/or EK tomorrow is basically Lindros/Holik/Fluery 2.0. They don't automatically transform the team into a contender. They make you a bubble team that starts trading picks for an 'extra piece' to squeak into the postseason. I can see it already. "We need to add so we don't waste EK's best remaining years, and Panarin isn't getting any younger."

Having a draft or two then adding aging vets is the Malhotra/Lundmark/Brendl and now we are done philosophy.

The timing is every bit as important as the player that's brought in.

I would love this if I could.

 

[Kovalev27]

Anaheim gets a point at least and officially puts us 5th in the lottery.

 

[Kovalev27]

Anaheim wins in OT that’s huge

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

Surprised no one here has mentioned Brandon Tanev as a UFA target. Guy has wheels. PKer. Elite 4th liner. Can play 3rd line. Rangers need to fix the PK. Will he be overpaid like Roussell/Komarov/Beagle/etc.? Probably. Is Cap Room an issue for the Rangers the next few years? Nope.

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

A decent part of the rebuild isn't only about the 1st rounders and UFAs, but the later round picks and guys who steal spots. NCAA UFAs too. The Rangers aren't going to throw next season away. That's pointless. They want to be competitive; can a guy like Patrick Virta win a spot out of camp? Can they get Reunnanen over here and play 2nd pair. Can Gettinger become a 4th line cycling menace?

Can they sign the right auxiliary UFAs. I just mentioned Brandon Tanev is my post above. Nyqvist?Wayne Simmonds? Panik? Someone who is a pro who will do a solid job and help support the kids.

Rangers have a ton of cap space.

Improving the PK is a must. They need forwards and D who are actually good at it. Pionk shouldn't be PKing as much.

The top 6 next year may not actually be so bad depending on where the ping pong balls fall. There's potential to add not only Kravstov but one of Hughes/Kakko/Cozens/Dach/Podz and maybe Panarin. That's huge.

In 2-3 years K. Miller and Barron will hopefully come in together. That's huge.

 

[Beacon]

One reason the Edmonton rebuilding failed is that they didn't stay the course, they made dumb trades. If they had Hall, Barzal, Eberle and Dubnik instead of Larsson, Reinhardt and Spooner, they are legit Cup contenders this year.

 

[aufheben]

I get the feeling Skjei is going to be actively shopped this offseason.

I hope so. Waddup Vancouver...

 

[aufheben]

One reason the Edmonton rebuilding failed is that they didn't stay the course, they made dumb trades. If they had Hall, Barzal, Eberle and Dubnik instead of Larsson, Reinhardt and Spooner, they are legit Cup contenders this year.

Did the Oilers ever even rebuild? All I remember is them trading Ryan Smyth at the deadline like 10 years ago. I feel like it's just been a clown parade since then. There was also 'HOPE' in there somewhere...of which I can now recall only 2 of the 4 players.

 

[Ola]

One reason the Edmonton rebuilding failed is that they didn't stay the course, they made dumb trades. If they had Hall, Barzal, Eberle and Dubnik instead of Larsson, Reinhardt and Spooner, they are legit Cup contenders this year.

The monumental mistake they have made and keep making is that they just do not understand that you must develop kids. The kids they traded trended up after being moved.

Everyone was always trashing AV completely for his youth development, and sure he might not be some maestro in that area, but if EDM 'just' had him they would surely be a contender by now. You cannot just throw kids in the NHL and wait for them to put it together. You should never take risks with kids. You should only play a kid in a role that you know -- or have very strong reason to believe -- that he can handle.

AND, if you cannot do the above, you CANNOT keep the kid. There is no second best alternative. Puljujärvi is one of many examples. The kid is 6'5. He scored 28 pts in 50 games in the SM-liiga his draft year. He should have been left in Finland until he filled out physically, the NA game was just to fast for him at 18-19. Then played in a big role on a PP and sheltered 5 on 5 while he grew into it. Instead they rush him over at young 18, play him mostly on a 4th line for 3 straight years. Little/none PP time.

To develop, you in many areas need to practice certain plays during games. NHL teams don't even practice that much. You will not develop many areas by practicing with a NHL team. And its not even close. A great yardstick when it comes to forwards is to just count puck touches during games. How many times per game does a kid have the puck for 1/2/3/4/5 seconds. If you look at the puck touches during games for a kid in over his head on a 4th line it becomes so illustrative. I've never made the actual count, but what do you get, 6-7 touches of 1-2 seconds? This is what Puljujärvi have had, three years in a row. Then compare that to like what Elias Petersson had in the SHL last season. From the 1/2/3/4/5 seconds perspective, he maybe had like 30:20:10;5:1. Pulju had maybe 6:3:0:0:0 for three years. Does it make sense that Pulju will not develop???

Its a good way to explain why a kid cannot be rushed. The offensive forward must get his puck touches during games. Count the puck touches of a young forward in over his head in the NHL on a 4th line and like a forward playing in a junior league in Canada. So important years when you are 18, 19, 20 and so forth. It has a very significant impact.

You cannot allow that to happen. They must be 10x more cynical, they are so tremendously naive. Wishful thinking. Completely ridiculous management. Its like a NHL team would be run by a group of hfboards posters. We must be as cynical in NY too. I think we have done a good job so far, both under AV and under Quinn. Chytil is borderline though. Lias was also IMO rushed. That is a tendency we have. If we just let Lias and Chytil be for one year, they would have had a much more quiet time and played in bigger roles, been involved more, their D+1 year. I think it was a blessing in disguise that Kravtsov had a year left on his KHL deal. We should be really patient with K'Andre in college.

 

[Ola]

Anaheim wins in OT that’s huge

The top 5 position we are in now is huge.

1 - 8.5%
2 - 8.7%
3 - 8.9%
5 - 8.4%
6 - 34.5%

Top 3 - 26.1%
Top 5 - 34.5%
Top 6 - 69%

It will not be easy to navigate among say those top 2 - 6 forwards. Give Clark more options to chose from. Maybe a team or two ahead of us gets it wrong. When everything is said and done, the top 4-5 forwards in the top 15 from this draft could become really good. It won't be the top 7-8, maybe the top 4-5. Maybe top 2-3, but I think there are some exciting names out there. Get one of those. Turcotte or vPod.

 

[Ail]

I don’t trust your confirmation, it could be sarcastic.

I’ll have you know Thirty One is an avid Googler and has confirmed many things in his day. Shameful accusations.

 

[Ola]

Smart man that Dave Maloney.

Stephenson: Maloney optimistic about rebuild

The Rangers are not tanking on purpose. The team just plain sucks. Build from within and keep collecting young talent in trades. They need to hit on the 1st round picks. When the team is ready to win, go get the final pieces. That's not a self fulfilling prophecy. That's good and sound strategy.

No mercenaries.

Maloney is right.

Someone posted the other day saying something like 'we are all speculating, we don't really know what is going on inside Gorton's head' or something to that affect. I don't think that is really correct. Gorton will do what he believes gives us the best shot to come out of this as good as we can be. Their is a quite clear path to that. Just keep making value positive moves. Value generating moves. What is value? Talented players, good contracts, picks, cap-space and so forth. Signing a 70 pts player to a 110 pts contract is not a value positive move, its not a value generating move, don't do it. Getting a player in a trade for 80% of what the player is worth is a value positive move. Developing a kid the right way is a value positive move, it generates value. Not developing a kid the right way is not a value positive move.

With the way the draft lottery is right now, a scorched earth-strategy is probably not value positive for the organization. Gorton is trading vets for value down the road, while also opening up cap-space and giving kids a shot in the NHL. This is giving us a roster that is not competitive, and right now, after the deadline, we aren't really trying. We are not pretending anymore. There is a big difference. But Gorton will also monitor the status of the team. He won't put a reckless product out there which will not support the kids on it at all. We have value on the roster, a scorched earth-strategy will give us a slightly higher draft pick, but hurt the value on the roster. The scorched earth-strategy must be so extreme to be guaranteed to have an impact, it will hurt the value we have on the roster, the kids we already have, a lot. Is it worth it? I don't think Gorton believe that it is.

Follow the above raw boundaries and I can bet that all of Gorton's moves will fit within them. He won't sign a UFA unless he thinks he can get the player on a contract that is good compared to what the other team's around the league is playing for similar players. Will that opportunity be available on July 1? Seems very unlikely. Gorton mentioned being unconventional, what does that mean? Look, no matter how you slice it or dice it, the trade-market in the NHL is a disgrace for NHL GMs. GM's are just way to gun-shy. They are afraid of the cap. If they do nothing, it will take so long for them to be called out. They will easily get 5-6 years. Can anyone see a GM getting fired for just making zero risk moves for 3-4 years? No, its the trades that cost you the job. Big UFA signings, but I often think ownership are in on those. You have to go really wrong on them if the owner is informed of the -- obvious -- risk. You can make value positive moves on the trade market. Just check all trades made the last 3 years. If you get one or even several very solid NHL players, that aren't even that old, for the cost of 1-2 late first round picks the team geting the players just adds a lot of value compared to what the picks realistically is worth. Unless Hajak and or Howden turns out to be a real gem, like border line 1st line/1st pairing player, Tampa added a lot of value in that trade. The Skinner trade. The Karlsson trade. The Montour trade. The Eberle trade. So many trades that haven't been made because teams listening to offers for players couldn't get a reasonable return. Teams won't give up futures and has no cap space. GM's are afraid. The buyers are winning the trades that aren't about rentals.

In no order:
1. Draft well.

2. Develop well (no scorched earth strategy).

3. Sign UDFAs.

4. Reclamation projects.

5. Sell rentals.

6. Make value positive trades. To do so, we must:
-Have assets to deal.
-Have flexibility under the cap.

7. Sign UFAs to good contracts compared to what other teams around the league are paying for similar players. This will require very special circumstances for it to be possible.

The key is not to do the above for 1-2 years, its to be able to do the above for a decade. Two decades. We cannot aim to add value for 2-3 years, 4-5 years, and then start to take liberties. We are an organization in a very attractive location. We have the resources to be a first class managed organization. Why is Tampa aiming to break records in the NHL? Yzerman has done the above for so many years there. They have a 1st and 2nd overall pick? Well change those guys, Stamkos and Hedman, for someone very good albeit not as great. They are still a contender. What have Yzerman done well? He has not just drafted well etc. He has also provided his kids with a sufficient environment to develop in. Made good trades. And so forth. Gorton will try to do the same.

 

[eco's bones]

I feel like some posters here might be a bit on the younger side and don't exactly recall the dark age teams that were miserable. Bad drafting, band aid stars, and very little hope. Years without playoffs where they added little if any future talent. I think that time frame in my youth gave me PTSD.

Build the team the right way, then add the right players through trade or free agency. Build a core to compete for 8-10 years

Running out and signing Panarin and/or EK tomorrow is basically Lindros/Holik/Fluery 2.0. They don't automatically transform the team into a contender. They make you a bubble team that starts trading picks for an 'extra piece' to squeak into the postseason. I can see it already. "We need to add so we don't waste EK's best remaining years, and Panarin isn't getting any younger."

Having a draft or two then adding aging vets is the Malhotra/Lundmark/Brendl and now we are done philosophy.

The timing is every bit as important as the player that's brought in.

Forcing younger players who might not be ready for it isn't always a great strategy either. Looking back on those 'dark age' teams there are reasons why certain moves shouldn't have been made--for instance Lindros and Messier II were shells of what they once were. Bure was broken down. Fleury never really wanted to be a Ranger and was dealing with all kinds of personal demons. There were questions about all these guys. I don't think there are really questions about Panarin for instance. He's a legit 1st line player who isn't very old and doesn't have injury baggage and if he does sign with us it will be because he wants to be here. Karlsson OTOH has a long injury history.

In any case I'm not convinced at this point that guys like Andersson and Howden are all that ready and that piecemealing a young lineup together for the next two/three years is really a good strategy. The way most young players learn how to be pros is from their elders and we need to be careful about not creating the losing kind of atmosphere that the Sabres and Oilers are still struggling to overcome despite all the elite talent they've acquired in the last several drafts. So if the Rangers went out and signed Panarin I'd be on board--Karlsson not really. As well signing guys and dealing them later is a way to keep a team functional and competitive while also giving them an opportunity to acquire other assets later--so I'm very much for short term contracts to vet players like Grabner, Claesson, McQuaid etc.

 

[Ola]

1. Trade Chris Kreider to Philly for 14th overall and Phillipe Myers. (or a deal like it)

2. Trade Shatty, with retention or sweeteners if necessary, for picks

3. Trade Namestnikov for a 2nd/3rd/prospect

4. Get Tyler Toffoli from LAK for a 3rd and Lindgren (or a move like that for a vet). 1 year left at 4.6m per. He hasn't performed for them this season, LAK need to dump contracts to get flexibility under the cap. TT is just 26 y/o, who knows, maybe he can recover for us. Either be someone we want to invest in long-term, can move again at the deadline. Or he sucks, but its just 1 year.

5. Sign Curtis Lazar as a UFA (wide speculation that Calgary won't qualify him).

Kravtsov-Ziba-Toffoli
Howden-Chytil-Lazar
Lemieux-Lias-Fast
Vesey-Boo-Virta
Skjei-TDA
Hajak-Pionk
Staal-Myers

Ton of picks in the draft this season. Ton of cap space.

 

[Irishguy42]

1. Trade Chris Kreider to Philly for 14th overall and Phillipe Myers. (or a deal like it)

2. Trade Shatty, with retention or sweeteners if necessary, for picks

3. Trade Namestnikov for a 2nd/3rd/prospect

4. Get Tyler Toffoli from LAK for a 3rd and Lindgren (or a move like that for a vet). 1 year left at 4.6m per. He hasn't performed for them this season, LAK need to dump contracts to get flexibility under the cap. TT is just 26 y/o, who knows, maybe he can recover for us. Either be someone we want to invest in long-term, can move again at the deadline. Or he sucks, but its just 1 year.

5. Sign Curtis Lazar as a UFA (wide speculation that Calgary won't qualify him).

Kravtsov-Ziba-Toffoli
Howden-Chytil-Lazar
Lemieux-Lias-Fast
Vesey-Boo-Virta
Skjei-TDA
Hajak-Pionk
Staal-Myers

Ton of picks in the draft this season. Ton of cap space.

Did Buchnevich sleep with your sister or something?

 

[Edge]

I know there’s a fear of having a decade-long rebuild. But if this team is still getting lottery picks in 3 or 4 years, they’ve royally screwed up.

In that case, EK or Panarin was not going to make a difference, because they would’ve essentially been an oasis in the wasteland.

 

[LeetchisGod]

Yeah, he'd drag Zibanejad down. Probably be awful on Chytil's wing too.

A team full of complemetary players isn't winning jack.

 

[pld459666]

Hawks being eliminated in 4 games in 2016 was not Panarin's fault. Or should be not sign Crosby either because he lost in the first round against the Rangers in 2015? Panarin has 15 points in 17 play off games. He has not struggled to perform when it matters most. Panarin is worth the money.

And, this will be his 2nd straight 80+pt season. 4th straight 70+pt season (with two different Org's)

He is elite and with the $$$

 

[LeetchisGod]

We need our own controlled lead dog.

That doesn't mean that you can't add good players from the outside, but we should until we have ours.

Somebody gets it.

 

[LeetchisGod]

And, this will be his 2nd straight 80+pt season. 4th straight 70+pt season (with two different Org's)

He is elite and with the $$$

Columbus has better pieces that we do and they may not even make the playoffs with him.

 

[LeetchisGod]

I get the feeling Skjei is going to be actively shopped this offseason.

He looked like a budding star during our last playoff run and has regressed badly since.