Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIV

[Pawnee Rangers]

I haven't said that he isn't a good player. I don't believe he is worth the money that he will command. I also think that he is a complementary player, not a lead dog. We have no one for him to complement.

Yeah, he'd drag Zibanejad down. Probably be awful on Chytil's wing too.

 

[Rangers in 7]

I haven't said that he isn't a good player. I don't believe he is worth the money that he will command. I also think that he is a complementary player, not a lead dog. We have no one for him to complement.

we also dont have a lead dog, he would do fine here

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

we also dont have a lead dog, he would do fine here

Then what’s the point of getting him?

 

[Dijock94]

I’m sure they’ll kick the tires there.

But unless he is willing to shattenkirk his way to NY (taking a hit on money and term) it isn’t happening.

This is the only way I wouldn’t be mad we signed him.

 

[Rangers in 7]

Then what’s the point of getting him?

i dont know what the hell i was trying to say, just ignore that whole comment

 

[True Blue]

Look, when you read people saying you should trade Zibanejad because his no move kicks in in a year or whenever or they should move Kreider for a mid 1st at the draft, that's purposely wanting to suck, I don't know how else to look at it.

I think that the people advocating such things are a part of an echo chamber which is not representative of all who post here. But at the end of the day, there is no such thing as untradeable. There is a market level price for everything.

But people losing their **** at the thought of signing Panarin (I don't want to) because the rebuild must be 2, 3, or however many years is silly. Does signing him mean that Gorton is all of a sudden not sticking to his plan?

Signing him now, would yes represent that he is not sticking to his plan. If he came along in another several years, that might be a different story. No one is saying that the rebuild must be 2,3 or 4 years. What the Panarin detractors are saying, and I am one such, was that you are going to pay maximum years and maximum dollars to sign him when the reality is that he would make no real discernible difference for the next several years. So when the Rangers are ready to start to compete, his contract is already two years old. And when they are really to begin to be legit contenders, his contract is probably 4 or 5 years old. And what are you tying up your cap space at that point for?

Yeah, he'd drag Zibanejad down. Probably be awful on Chityl's wing too.

Again, that is not what anyone is saying.

 

[Kovalev27]

The rangers desperately need Kravtsov and their top 5 pick here to be homeruns. If they are they’re off and running. We have depth. What we need are those 2 or 3 more guys to join Mika Chytil and DeAngelo as bonafide studs

 

[Edge]

The rangers desperately need Kravtsov and their top 5 pick here to be homeruns. If they are they’re off and running. We have depth. What we need are those 2 or 3 more guys to join Mika Chytil and DeAngelo as bonafide studs

A lot is riding on 2018-2020.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I think that the people advocating such things are a part of an echo chamber which is not representative of all who post here. But at the end of the day, there is no such thing as untradeable. There is a market level price for everything.

Signing him now, would yes represent that he is not sticking to his plan. If he came along in another several years, that might be a different story. No one is saying that the rebuild must be 2,3 or 4 years. What the Panarin detractors are saying, and I am one such, was that you are going to pay maximum years and maximum dollars to sign him when the reality is that he would make no real discernible difference for the next several years. So when the Rangers are ready to start to compete, his contract is already two years old. And when they are really to begin to be legit contenders, his contract is probably 4 or 5 years old. And what are you tying up your cap space at that point for?

Again, that is not what anyone is saying.

I just don't know how you can say with any certainty that they won't be legit for another 4 or 5 years. Did anyone predict Vegas last year? Did anyone see the Devils falling so far or the Islanders near the top of the division this year? Signing Panarin doesn't mean Gorton isn't sticking to a plan, it means he decided to add a world-class player without having to give up any assets to do it. Maybe it's not Panarin, maybe it's EK. Don't know, but you can't be worried about money and then say they won't be good for 5 years. Who else would his money go to? When is the kid they draft this year up for a new contract? And the poster literally said, there wasn't anyone here for Panarin to compliment, which is false. He'd compliment 93 and 72 just fine, imo.

 

[Kovalev27]

A lot is riding on 2018-2020.

Yes sir. I see a lot of really good young support pieces here and I expect a lot more between this draft and 2020 but we need those studs. I do not believe management will sit too long on their hands before wanting to go for it again so if they don’t get these franchise kids now we’ll be dipping into free agency and picking in the teens again for years.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

A lot is riding on 2018-2020.

Everything is riding on 2017-2020.

 

[Off Sides]

The past two and next two drafts are going to turn out to be way more important than anything else they do. I'm really hoping some deals which allow them to either add picks or move up materialize.

 

[Ola]

Real big-name block busters are unusual in this league.

Everyone were a bit surprised when Montreal actually dealt PK Subban. They listened to offers for him at one point then a year after IIRC they did the same again and dealt him.

But I am willing to bet that a lot more big names — like PK Subban — have been thrown around out there. Jim Martheson had Colorado ‘listening to offers for Mackinnon’ as late as back in 2017. I actually think that more big names are/have been available than usual. Everything gets more difficult with the cap. You have a good guy, but if you are paying market value for him and not getting the results you might not have any mobility to improve. But since the trade market has been so slow — we have probably not seen more big block busters than usual.

I wouldn’t hold my breath for it, but I don’t think it’s tremendously unlikely that Gorton could manage to pull of some really big move.

 

[True Blue]

I just don't know how you can say with any certainty that they won't be legit for another 4 or 5 years. Did anyone predict Vegas last year? Did anyone see the Devils falling so far or the Islanders near the top of the division this year?

How Vegas got there is a different story, but there are reasons as to why it is not a story that will be very easy to duplicate. Bringing the Devils into the conversation is not exactly apple to apple because they have been a MASH unit, and oh by the way has been playing without the NHL MVP for how long now? The Isles have a good team. It is much easier to see them being good than the Rangers.

How do I know that they won't be legit for another 4-5 years? First of all, that does not mean that I think that they will not begin to be competitive again for another 5 years. Second of all, take a look around you . You still have 2 years of Staal, Shattenkirk & Smith to deal with. Are you ready to anoint Georgiev ready to take over every day goalie duties? Behind THIS defense?

Sure ZBad and Kreider are great. But what else is there? Lots of promise and not a lot of substance. The kids still need to take lots more steps forward. And asking 19 & 20 year olds to become instantly top 6 forwards is exactly how you get Edmonton or Carolina or Florida. There is no legit 2nd line right now. They are in asset gathering mode. So if you simply add Panarin to this assortment, do you believe that they become instant contenders? Or are you planning on bringing in the premium free agent and then going out and obtaining players to surround him with?

Signing Panarin doesn't mean Gorton isn't sticking to a plan, it means he decided to add a world-class player without having to give up any assets to do it. Maybe it's not Panarin, maybe it's EK.

Let's pretend and say you bring in both of them. Do they make this team a legit Cup contender? If the answer is no, then what are you doing to address that? Going out and getting other UFAs to surround them and provide support? Maybe trading some assets you acquired for the support? Does that sound like someone who is sticking to the plan?

Don't know, but you can't be worried about money and then say they won't be good for 5 years.

Worrying about money is worrying about cap space tied up into long term contracts, rife with NMC/NTC just when the Rangers are beginning to turn the corner and become contenders.

Who else would his money go to? When is the kid they draft this year up for a new contract?

Who cares? Just because you can spend does not mean you should.

And the poster literally said, there wasn't anyone here for Panarin to compliment, which is false. He'd compliment 93 and 72 just fine, imo.

Again, that is fantastic. Now what does the rest of the team look like? If it looks like what you have on the ice now, what difference does he make?

 

[Fitzy]

This team is many, many pieces away from being good.

And that's before we factor in inexperience.

We can spend a lot of time talking about signing or trading for 1 or 2 guys, but in reality, the most important thing is getting good players consistently with our allotment of draft picks, and getting successful UDFA signings on a year to year basis.

I mean, landing Kevin Hayes basically made the bad McIlrath pick irrelevant. Georgiev is covering up for the failure in Halverson.
Keep probing for UDFA's would be most of my attention right now. Think how big a get Panarin was in terms of salary his first few seasons.

 

[Lays]

I think 2020 is the draft we really bottom out, luckily it’s as stacked as 2015 so far (just no McDavid) 2021 we should be a bit better and then 2022 we should be improving to a bubble team. 2023 we’re in contention for a playoff spot. Rangers have said they want to get back into the playoffs ASAP

 

[Mikos87]

I think 2020 is the draft we really bottom out, luckily it’s as stacked as 2015 so far (just no McDavid) 2021 we should be a bit better and then 2022 we should be improving to a bubble team. 2023 we’re in contention for a playoff spot. Rangers have said they want to get back into the playoffs ASAP

I'd say playoffs are a 2021 expectation, as a wildcard. The roster needs a lot of turnover, and I have not been happy with the filler players. Despite a lack of talent, you still need to team build the right way, which is where I don't have confidence in Gorts & Co. What I mean by that is, you need to have players that can fill roles. The kids may suck at it, or as it's being currently proven out... not ready for it... but you still need to have roles in the line-up. That's 4 PK forwards. 2 Pairs on D that can PK. Balanced mix of Lefties and Righties across the roster. PP units that have the right mix of players for consistency.

The game today, has become more predictable in terms of situational success. The Rangers aren't building around that.

 

[I Eat Crow]

I think 2020 is the draft we really bottom out, luckily it’s as stacked as 2015 so far (just no McDavid) 2021 we should be a bit better and then 2022 we should be improving to a bubble team. 2023 we’re in contention for a playoff spot. Rangers have said they want to get back into the playoffs ASAP

I agree with your timeline. That being said, Lafreniere is the best forward prospect since McDavid, IMO. He's on Matthews' level at worst.

 

[I Eat Crow]

I think 2020 is the draft we really bottom out, luckily it’s as stacked as 2015 so far (just no McDavid) 2021 we should be a bit better and then 2022 we should be improving to a bubble team. 2023 we’re in contention for a playoff spot. Rangers have said they want to get back into the playoffs ASAP

I agree with your timeline. That being said, Lafreniere is the best forward prospect since McDavid, IMO. He's on Matthews' level at worst.

 

[Lays]

I'd say playoffs are a 2021 expectation, as a wildcard. The roster needs a lot of turnover, and I have not been happy with the filler players. Despite a lack of talent, you still need to team build the right way, which is where I don't have confidence in Gorts & Co. What I mean by that is, you need to have players that can fill roles. The kids may suck at it, or as it's being currently proven out... not ready for it... but you still need to have roles in the line-up. That's 4 PK forwards. 2 Pairs on D that can PK. Balanced mix of Lefties and Righties across the roster. PP units that have the right mix of players for consistency.

The game today, has become more predictable in terms of situational success. The Rangers aren't building around that.

Doubt we get to the playoffs in 2021, I’ve really liked the job we’ve done though. We have future role players though

 

[E-Train]

What we need are those 2 or 3 more guys to join Mika Chytil and DeAngelo as bonafide studs

I think we’re well on our way. Can’t discount that the 3 you mentioned are studs. I didn’t want ADA at the time of the trade but man I’m sold. He’s a 25 minute #1 in the making IMO. Have to kill it in this draft. Any of the centers, Kaako or Byram with the first pick and go from there.

 

[Off Sides]

I think 2020 is the draft we really bottom out, luckily it’s as stacked as 2015 so far (just no McDavid) 2021 we should be a bit better and then 2022 we should be improving to a bubble team. 2023 we’re in contention for a playoff spot. Rangers have said they want to get back into the playoffs ASAP

That timeline is pretty much my guess too.

They do this whole stockpile, develop, sign 2nd contract thing until the big 4 contracts would naturally end after the 2021 season (should they not be moved prior) which coincides with expansion and the CBA ending, and from there they start to evaluate what that process did and did not produce, then they try to either sign or trade for stuff to fill the gaps which probably should get them back into the playoff picture within a year or two after that.

If something too good to pass on comes up in the mean time, I'm sure they will explore that whether it be a signing or trade, yet it seems to me like they are going to sort of set a price/term/clauses, and stick to it with their offers.

The deadlines, the drafts, expansion, their conditional picks still in play, a new CBA, and cap space should make for some opportunities where they could be in an advantageous position throughout all that.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

How Vegas got there is a different story, but there are reasons as to why it is not a story that will be very easy to duplicate. Bringing the Devils into the conversation is not exactly apple to apple because they have been a MASH unit, and oh by the way has been playing without the NHL MVP for how long now? The Isles have a good team. It is much easier to see them being good than the Rangers.

How do I know that they won't be legit for another 4-5 years? First of all, that does not mean that I think that they will not begin to be competitive again for another 5 years. Second of all, take a look around you . You still have 2 years of Staal, Shattenkirk & Smith to deal with. Are you ready to anoint Georgiev ready to take over every day goalie duties? Behind THIS defense?

Sure ZBad and Kreider are great. But what else is there? Lots of promise and not a lot of substance. The kids still need to take lots more steps forward. And asking 19 & 20 year olds to become instantly top 6 forwards is exactly how you get Edmonton or Carolina or Florida. There is no legit 2nd line right now. They are in asset gathering mode. So if you simply add Panarin to this assortment, do you believe that they become instant contenders? Or are you planning on bringing in the premium free agent and then going out and obtaining players to surround him with?

Let's pretend and say you bring in both of them. Do they make this team a legit Cup contender? If the answer is no, then what are you doing to address that? Going out and getting other UFAs to surround them and provide support? Maybe trading some assets you acquired for the support? Does that sound like someone who is sticking to the plan?

Worrying about money is worrying about cap space tied up into long term contracts, rife with NMC/NTC just when the Rangers are beginning to turn the corner and become contenders.

Who cares? Just because you can spend does not mean you should.

Again, that is fantastic. Now what does the rest of the team look like? If it looks like what you have on the ice now, what difference does he make?

My point about those teams was simply, you never know from one season to the next. Let alone 4-5 years down the road.

I don't think Staal and Shattenkirk have been as god awful as people think but I'm not an advanced stat person, so who knows. Pionk, sure. But do you really think it's going to be 5 years before guys like Hajek, Miller, Lindgren, Lundqvist, Rykov, Ruenan start contributing? If that's the case, they've already failed. They all won't work out but if two or three do that's great. And why did you leave Shestyorkin off? Isn't he Lundqvist's heir apparent?

I don't believe adding Panarin makes them instant contenders. I'm not really sure I even want them to sign him to be honest but I can see why other's do. He's a stud. And if they do, it doesn't automatically signal that the rebuild is over. Every season brings new opportunities, guys become available, other guys fizzle out. I'm just not holding my breath for a top 3 pick in the next 2-3 years and I think there are other ways to build a championship team without them.

 

[True Blue]

Have to kill it in this draft.

I don't think that they can afford to be wrong in this year or next year's draft. Is that the same as "having to kill it"? Possibly. Due to the fact that I think that they will be worse next year and that next year's draft looks to be very strong (not yet ready to anoint it as 2003 strong), the more talented player may come from next year's draft. Which is just a long way of saying that this one and the next one are very important.

Not all picks are going to work out. But the early ones need to.

 

[E-Train]

I don't think that they can afford to be wrong in this year or next year's draft. Is that the same as "having to kill it"? Possibly. Due to the fact that I think that they will be worse next year and that next year's draft looks to be very strong (not yet ready to anoint it as 2003 strong), the more talented player may come from next year's draft. Which is just a long way of saying that this one and the next one are very important.

Not all picks are going to work out. But the early ones need to.

Well rather than “have to” I’d like them to kill it this year. Especially if TB wins the cup and DAL somehow makes it to the WCF. Get a top player with the high first and pick up some talent that falls in the late first.

 

[Winston2018]

That timeline is pretty much my guess too.

They do this whole stockpile, develop, sign 2nd contract thing until the big 4 contracts would naturally end after the 2021 season (should they not be moved prior) which coincides with expansion and the CBA ending, and from there they start to evaluate what that process did and did not produce, then they try to either sign or trade for stuff to fill the gaps which probably should get them back into the playoff picture within a year or two after that.

If something too good to pass on comes up in the mean time, I'm sure they will explore that whether it be a signing or trade, yet it seems to me like they are going to sort of set a price/term/clauses, and stick to it with their offers.

The deadlines, the drafts, expansion, their conditional picks still in play, a new CBA, and cap space should make for some opportunities where they could be in an advantageous position throughout all that.

Perfecto!