Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXX

[duhmetreE]

The salary cap information coming out of the Governors meeting is important for future planning. It looks like $82.5MM is set for next year, $83.5MM the following year and then a return to normalcy (along with a big cap jump) in 2024-25.

For that Rengers that likely means a two-year bridge for Kaako and the likelihood of a one-year bridges for Lafreniere and Miller next year. With much bigger money available starting in 2024-25, contracts like Trouba and Kreider will become much less of a discussion point. This anticipated boost on cap dollars couldn't come at a better time for the Rangers.

Knowing that, it would be nice to lock up someone like Kakko long term to get that value in 2024.

 

[cheech70]

 

[rangersfansince08]

Knowing that, it would be nice to lock up someone like Kakko long term to get that value in 2024.

I wish we were more sure he would break out.

 

[kovazub94]

Do you put Zibs in that category as well? If not you should, There is not a more streakier player in our lineup. He can go 10 games doing zilch and then go on a 5 game spree where he notches 8-10 goals. This is his MO. For a number 1 center we need better. All you guys keep pointing on how the Kreider and Trouba contracts are albatrosses well I hate to tell you so is Zibs, especially if he continues being as streaky as this. Honestly that is why I believe we need an upgrade from Strome. Too much of the season Zibs is not playing as a number 1.

The ship on who’s #1 center has sailed so this is pretty moot.

And Zibanejad while not at his strongest so far still is a close to ppg. And his streakness is not 5 games. He goes on 20+ game runs at a higher than 1 ppg runs. Last game Kreider was many times close to a goal on a set up from Zibanejad.

My only complain in his regard would be faceoffs and maybe if he was a bit stronger on the boards.

 

[kovazub94]

Trouba has settled in nicely under Gallant, as has most of the rest of the team, what do I care at this point that his first 2 years weren't worldbeater seasons? Kreider is possessed, should I be upset that he didn't score 30 goals in 2016-17? Trouba and most of the team has said without explicitly saying that Quinn stifled a lot of what the players wanted to do through his micromanagement and it made them think/play uncomfortably/unnaturally. Sure, "No excuses, they're professionals" but work environment can impact production. They are still human. Would this team look any different today had he played then the way he is now, or would there just have been less general complaining about his contract?


Trouba's imposing his will on the other team almost nightly in the here and now. On any given night he's one of the most influential defensemen not named Adam Fox. Too much looking in the rearview with a few guys on this team. Trouba, Kreider, Strome. They are doing it and people are writing it all off as a blip. Maybe ultimately it ends up being a blip, but I'm getting to a point where I'm too tired to get myself so invested in thinking about the grass being greener once we move out players X and Y and bring in player Z. I want to enjoy the hockey this team is playing this season.

Agree with your Trouba sentiment but I like how you mentioned Trouba, Kreider and Strome in a sense that the Rangers can’t keep at least one of them as soon as 22-23 season, so the Rangers are forced to choose. Pretty obvious that Trouba is not going anywhere yet so it’s between Kreider and Strome.

 

[Chalfdiggity3]

Lol its such bullshit. The league wants to bitch about something they clearly saw as a non goal and yet with shit that happens with marchand and others it gets brushed under the rug

 

[smoneil]

Completely disagree.

There's a changing of the guard coming in a few years. The window is open now with the Vets leading the way. I don't comprehend how our 'window opens' when we get rid of our current top players for unexperienced and unproven youth. That sounds like a major risk

I love Kreids and Trouba has impressed me a lot this season. They aren't our top players. The two of them would be at best our fifth and sixth best players (Shesty, Bread, Zibanejad, Fox), and I would hope that Kakko and Laf would leapfrog what Kreider is sooner rather than later. And this changing of the guard would be two and a half seasons from now, so the hope would be that Schneider, Othmann, and Cuylle wouldn't BE "unexperienced and unproven" at that point. The reason I think our window really opens at that point is because of the salary cap. I think this year's team is too green to be a serious Cup threat. This year's team WILL lose talent next year because of the salary cap situation. So the goal is to get the young core we have right now some experience in playoff hockey (something Trouba and Kreider can help with). Then, when the clauses change, we can get some cap flexibility by moving them and replacing them with in house talent. Yes, younger and cheaper and less proven, but those kids would be joining a battle tested young core that still has its top talent on the roster in the four guys I mentioned earlier.

How did Kakko improve under the same circumstances?

Chytil is nearly the same player from when he first came into the league. It is not me that's being dishonest. Blind faith is not how you win. He's shown nothing to be a stable top6 option. Can that change? sure. He has not improved nearly enough, especially in the defensive side of things

Kakko improved under different circumstances, but even assuming they were the same, Kakko is a much more talented player than Chytil. One guy was a consensus 2nd overall pick. The other was drafted in the latter half of the first round. It doesn't take an NHL historian to know that guys in column A tend to develop more quickly than guys in column B.

But as I mentioned, they were not in the same circumstances. Kakko received multiple stints with top lines. He has consistently had more minutes and more regular power play time than Chytil, even when his play was putrid, as it was in his rookie season. Also, while production is not the end all and be all of player evaluation, Kakko has LIVED on the top two lines all season. Played with all of our best players. Received two plus more minutes than Chytil per game. And Kakko has 8 points in 22 games to Chytil's 7 points in 23 games. Don't get me wrong--Kakko is and will be the better player--but you are acting like Kakko's development arc and opportunities thus far have been the same as Chytil's, and they haven't been.

And I know your spin about how you think Chytil hasn't developed at all. I've seen it before. I've responded to it before. It comes down to me pointing out his three consecutive seasons of improvement in production, +/-, faceoff percentage, etc, and you coming back with the same tired claims about how he hasn't improved since day one while offering nothing to back it up. I do think he could have improved more in that span, but that's been based on his usage by the team. Young players, especially guys not taken at the top of the draft, develop by playing. It's why we have a minor league system--so that players can play top minutes rather than sitting in the press box. If Chytil had been where he should have been in his first few seasons (AHL) the narrative on him here would be very different. This is also why I am confident that, with more minutes, Chytil will grow into that top six role. He's needed more minutes for years now. I'm also fairly convinced that the crowd that is determined to hate this kid regardless of what he does is just bored with him. Lots of people on this board have the patience of a toddler. Any time a player is here for 15 minutes without turning into a league breaking talent, some people on here convince themselves that said player is useless.

Once again. I do not know where you're getting your math from. Chytil is making 2.3M. Gourde would be @ 2.55M for 4 seasons...

Let's say Chytil takes off as 2C next season... How much is he getting paid now? How do we afford it in 2023.. you said it yourself, there's no money. Your concerned for everyone but Chytil getting paid.... it's weird. NOW, if he flops on his face, we're wasting a year with no answers.

RE: the bold--Tell me you never went back and read the cap breakdown I told you about without telling me you didn't read the cap breakdown I told you about. And for someone complaining about MY math, you seem to have had trouble dividing a number by two (Gourde's hit at 50% would be 2.583). As I showed in the cap breakdown in the previous thread, we ARE that close to the cap next season and the season after that we may not have enough money as it is. Literally crunching pennies. We basically have around 3 million dollars to re-sign Kakko, cover the ELC performance bonuses, and account for a bit of in-season cap space. Considering Lafreniere's bonuses alone account for almost 3 million dollars, we're kinda f***ed. Miller ($400k), Barron ($850k), Lundkvist ($850k), and Schneider ($400k) all have performance bonuses in their contracts for next season as well, and with the roles people are penciling these guys in for, many of them are likely to hit those bonuses. So on bonuses alone, we could be spending close to twice the cap we would have available. Now add Kakko's new contract. Now add a bit of cap space that every team likes to have to work with during the season (~$1m). Are you seeing yet why it doesn't make sense to trade for a more expensive player? We are cap-screwed for the next two years.

And as for your bit about me supposedly not being concerned about Chytil's next contract, I literally said earlier in this thread that if he takes off, he could easily price himself out of the team ala Buch. I don't even think about Chytil's next contract until Laf's next contract is done, and then we can see if Chytil is willing to sign for what's left (if not, move him then. If he's broken out, he'll bring in a better player than Gourde at that point anyway). If I had any real money, I'd bet real money that Montreal tries to offer sheet Laf.

My issue is not about trading players I like. It's about throwing them away because people are premature about the start of the team's "window."

The whole premise is Gourde at 50%. A good defensive middle6 center. Whether it's Gourde, Horvat or Larkin. Gourde makes the most sense and fits our need longish term. Horvat and Larkin will have to be paid sooner rather than later

And then we cycle back to this. The old, well trodden argument we have about Chytil is ultimately beside the point, because the entire premise is flawed. Gourd IS a good defensive middle six center. I see him as more of an elite 3rd liner than a good 2nd liner, and I have concerns about both his playoff production and his long-term durability playing his style of game with such a small frame, but still--good defensive middle six center. We agree on that.

That's not how Seattle views him. He's their 1st/2nd line center and team leader. And you want them to retain several million dollars for three years. True value usually rests somewhere between what one team's fans are willing to offer and another team's fans are willing to take. Go ask the Seattle board what their hypothetical ask would be for Gourde at half off. I guarantee you it won't be Kravtsov and Chytil. AND all of this is even assuming that Gourde would want to come here, as he has a NTC.

The name of the game is patience. This team can be an absolute monster if they just don't jump the gun to try to be relevant a year or two earlier than the Cap will let them.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

Trade Shesty

Wheels ready to go...

 

[MrAlmost]

I would make an offer substantial enough to make Gourde available at 50%.

 

[Ola]

Technically, ON one, yes.

Didn’t know! Been on one for long?

 

[PuckLuck3043]

I'm confused. Dahlin was clearly in the zone before the puck was. Wouldn't he have to exit the zone entirely before that could be called onside?

 

[duhmetreE]

I'm confused. Dahlin was clearly in the zone before the puck was. Wouldn't he have to exit the zone entirely before that could be called onside?

It's a technicality. He technically didn't have the stick on his blade. Therefore he didn't have 'possession'

It's something that should be further clarified for future. He clearly had possession. He brought the puck over the line while Dahlin was offsides. He then touched the puck when Dahlin touched the blue line.

He was stick handling. Is Stick Handling possession? or is it only when the puck us literally on the stick. I get both sides but it'd be a really shitty thing to have happen in the playoffs

 

[PuckLuck3043]

It's a technicality. He technically didn't have the stick on his blade. Therefore he didn't have 'possession'

It's something that should be further clarified for future. He clearly had possession. He brought the puck over the line while Dahlin was offsides. He then touched the puck when Dahlin touched the blue line.

He was stick handling. Is Stick Handling possession? or is it only when the puck us literally on the stick. I get both sides but it'd be a really shitty thing to have happen in the playoffs

But even if he didn't have possession, Dahlin was clearly in the zone before the puck. Wouldn't he have to fully exit the zone to get onside?

 

[duhmetreE]

But even if he didn't have possession, Dahlin was clearly in the zone before the puck. Wouldn't he have to fully exit the zone to get onside?

they were all on the blue line. 'technically' onside.

 

[PuckLuck3043]

they were all on the blue line. 'technically' onside.

I know, but I thought in the case of a delayed offside that the player had to fully exit the zone and not just get to the blueline.

 

[duhmetreE]

Detroit slowly falling off and out of the race... maybe that's what @Edge meant w were monitoring

I still have a hard time believing Drury would commit to a Larkin or Horvat, just to have the same Strome issue in a years time.

 

[IDvsEGO]

they were all on the blue line. 'technically' onside.

From my understanding, once the puck crosses full into the zone, the blue line actually becomes part of the zone the puck is in(he can't just get to the line, he has to get over the line and into the neutral zone).

 

[IDvsEGO]

Detroit slowly falling off and out of the race... maybe that's what @Edge meant w were monitoring

I still have a hard time believing Drury would commit to a Larkin or Horvat, just to have the same Strome issue in a years time.

Except a larkin/horvat is a different level player than a strome?

 

[SA16]

Except a larkin/horvat is a different level player than a strome?

Strome is better than Horvat.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

By the time the big cap jump rolls around definitely Kreider and maybe Trouba will be gone and we’ll be scheming up a way to kick Stromes awful soon to be extension out the door

 

[duhmetreE]

Except a larkin/horvat is a different level player than a strome?

Larkin, I'd buy. Everything we'd need/want.

Horvat is better at faceoffs... but I wouldn't say he's better than Strome at the moment.

 

[duhmetreE]

I know, but I thought in the case of a delayed offside that the player had to fully exit the zone and not just get to the blueline.

From my understanding, once the puck crosses full into the zone, the blue line actually becomes part of the zone the puck is in(he can't just get to the line, he has to get over the line and into the neutral zone).

it's something that should be further elaborated on because if this cost a team a game, one way or the other, in the playoffs... that'd be a nightmare

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

Didn’t know! Been on one for long?

Lol I was kidding... 15 years... but the bet is over in 5.

 

[Mandar]

I love Kreids and Trouba has impressed me a lot this season. They aren't our top players. The two of them would be at best our fifth and sixth best players (Shesty, Bread, Zibanejad, Fox), and I would hope that Kakko and Laf would leapfrog what Kreider is sooner rather than later. And this changing of the guard would be two and a half seasons from now, so the hope would be that Schneider, Othmann, and Cuylle wouldn't BE "unexperienced and unproven" at that point. The reason I think our window really opens at that point is because of the salary cap. I think this year's team is too green to be a serious Cup threat. This year's team WILL lose talent next year because of the salary cap situation. So the goal is to get the young core we have right now some experience in playoff hockey (something Trouba and Kreider can help with). Then, when the clauses change, we can get some cap flexibility by moving them and replacing them with in house talent. Yes, younger and cheaper and less proven, but those kids would be joining a battle tested young core that still has its top talent on the roster in the four guys I mentioned earlier.



Kakko improved under different circumstances, but even assuming they were the same, Kakko is a much more talented player than Chytil. One guy was a consensus 2nd overall pick. The other was drafted in the latter half of the first round. It doesn't take an NHL historian to know that guys in column A tend to develop more quickly than guys in column B.

But as I mentioned, they were not in the same circumstances. Kakko received multiple stints with top lines. He has consistently had more minutes and more regular power play time than Chytil, even when his play was putrid, as it was in his rookie season. Also, while production is not the end all and be all of player evaluation, Kakko has LIVED on the top two lines all season. Played with all of our best players. Received two plus more minutes than Chytil per game. And Kakko has 8 points in 22 games to Chytil's 7 points in 23 games. Don't get me wrong--Kakko is and will be the better player--but you are acting like Kakko's development arc and opportunities thus far have been the same as Chytil's, and they haven't been.

And I know your spin about how you think Chytil hasn't developed at all. I've seen it before. I've responded to it before. It comes down to me pointing out his three consecutive seasons of improvement in production, +/-, faceoff percentage, etc, and you coming back with the same tired claims about how he hasn't improved since day one while offering nothing to back it up. I do think he could have improved more in that span, but that's been based on his usage by the team. Young players, especially guys not taken at the top of the draft, develop by playing. It's why we have a minor league system--so that players can play top minutes rather than sitting in the press box. If Chytil had been where he should have been in his first few seasons (AHL) the narrative on him here would be very different. This is also why I am confident that, with more minutes, Chytil will grow into that top six role. He's needed more minutes for years now. I'm also fairly convinced that the crowd that is determined to hate this kid regardless of what he does is just bored with him. Lots of people on this board have the patience of a toddler. Any time a player is here for 15 minutes without turning into a league breaking talent, some people on here convince themselves that said player is useless.



RE: the bold--Tell me you never went back and read the cap breakdown I told you about without telling me you didn't read the cap breakdown I told you about. And for someone complaining about MY math, you seem to have had trouble dividing a number by two (Gourde's hit at 50% would be 2.583). As I showed in the cap breakdown in the previous thread, we ARE that close to the cap next season and the season after that we may not have enough money as it is. Literally crunching pennies. We basically have around 3 million dollars to re-sign Kakko, cover the ELC performance bonuses, and account for a bit of in-season cap space. Considering Lafreniere's bonuses alone account for almost 3 million dollars, we're kinda f***ed. Miller ($400k), Barron ($850k), Lundkvist ($850k), and Schneider ($400k) all have performance bonuses in their contracts for next season as well, and with the roles people are penciling these guys in for, many of them are likely to hit those bonuses. So on bonuses alone, we could be spending close to twice the cap we would have available. Now add Kakko's new contract. Now add a bit of cap space that every team likes to have to work with during the season (~$1m). Are you seeing yet why it doesn't make sense to trade for a more expensive player? We are cap-screwed for the next two years.

And as for your bit about me supposedly not being concerned about Chytil's next contract, I literally said earlier in this thread that if he takes off, he could easily price himself out of the team ala Buch. I don't even think about Chytil's next contract until Laf's next contract is done, and then we can see if Chytil is willing to sign for what's left (if not, move him then. If he's broken out, he'll bring in a better player than Gourde at that point anyway). If I had any real money, I'd bet real money that Montreal tries to offer sheet Laf.

My issue is not about trading players I like. It's about throwing them away because people are premature about the start of the team's "window."



And then we cycle back to this. The old, well trodden argument we have about Chytil is ultimately beside the point, because the entire premise is flawed. Gourd IS a good defensive middle six center. I see him as more of an elite 3rd liner than a good 2nd liner, and I have concerns about both his playoff production and his long-term durability playing his style of game with such a small frame, but still--good defensive middle six center. We agree on that.

That's not how Seattle views him. He's their 1st/2nd line center and team leader. And you want them to retain several million dollars for three years. True value usually rests somewhere between what one team's fans are willing to offer and another team's fans are willing to take. Go ask the Seattle board what their hypothetical ask would be for Gourde at half off. I guarantee you it won't be Kravtsov and Chytil. AND all of this is even assuming that Gourde would want to come here, as he has a NTC.

The name of the game is patience. This team can be an absolute monster if they just don't jump the gun to try to be relevant a year or two earlier than the Cap will let them.

You get paid by the word?

 

[Shesterkybomb]

You get paid by the word?

I'm not paying for that