Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XVII - Want some, get some

[offdacrossbar]

The story is that the Avs walked away from a Kreider deal at the draft because Newhook was available. If they weren't interested in giving up Newhook for a full year of Kreider, I can't imagine they'd want to do it for 2 months of Kreider. I think we should all let that dream die.

I'm sure the Rangers would love to get a really good prospect or good young NHL player for Kreider, but that's not really a rental price. Hall being on the market further complicates things. Gorton probably isn't looking forward to being the guy teams circle back to while trying to land Hall or after missing out on him.

why does it have to be a rental ? denver isnt Winnipeg.

if the avs have a legit shot at winning a cup or 2 in this window, a guy like kreider might well entice them. hes the prototypical "one player away" guy for a team who believes they have a shot now.

even though we know the truth, he would appear to be the perfect "playoff add". fast, big and physical. net front presence for a team of skill finesse speed guys. perfect fit.

newhook doesnt help them right now. kreider in fact does. alot. kreider on that roster on a 2nd line makes them even more deep and dangerous. allows them to weather an injury as well which they've been effected by alot recently. his skill set on that roster with that kind of speed would be a matchup nightmare.

would he resign there ? sure why not. not a rental per say. thats a place be could sign his last deal and finish his career.

is there a team with more "upside" than the avs in the league right now ? add kreider and that upside is legit cup contender this year and the next few years.

the teams have some history. im thinking theres a deal there to be made.

just thinking out loud.

 

[RGY]

I think Jenner’s numbers took a hit when the Jackets built a contender. They had guys like Foligno, Atkinson, Panarin, Dubois, Duchene, etc. playing in the top six and Jenner is a great shut down center. I think on a team like the Rangers that is juggling lines a lot he could put up 40-50 points, but if he stays in that 35-40 range he won’t cost a lot to re-sign so he wouldn’t be an anchor contract if he started to decline. I also don’t think he will as he’s a pretty consistent, physical specimen. Established veterans are needed to lead the team and he’s definitely a leader who can play throughout the lineup. Even if he’s just a ~40 point third line center who PKs and adds a ton of grit, I’m not too afraid of re-signing him. I don’t think he’d be expensive. And I do think he’d do great banging in trash on the PP.

There is something to be said about the JD connection to CBJ and the optics of it all as the perfect trade partners.

CBJ went for it last season and traded a lot from the cupboard while also watching their Goalie and best Forward walk. They are team that is certainly getting older with guys like Foligno, Dubinsky, heck even Atkinson. They are trending in the wrong direction and need to maybe consider transitioning to a rebuild. They need to at least restock assets.

The Rangers have stocked a lot of prospects and picks. They are on the rise.

JD knows what that organization’s strength and weaknesses are. There is a match there.

 

[NYR Viper]

I think Jenner’s numbers took a hit when the Jackets built a contender. They had guys like Foligno, Atkinson, Panarin, Dubois, Duchene, etc. playing in the top six and Jenner is a great shut down center. I think on a team like the Rangers that is juggling lines a lot he could put up 40-50 points, but if he stays in that 35-40 range he won’t cost a lot to re-sign so he wouldn’t be an anchor contract if he started to decline. I also don’t think he will as he’s a pretty consistent, physical specimen. Established veterans are needed to lead the team and he’s definitely a leader who can play throughout the lineup. Even if he’s just a ~40 point third line center who PKs and adds a ton of grit, I’m not too afraid of re-signing him. I don’t think he’d be expensive. And I do think he’d do great banging in trash on the PP.

Fair enough, I have some concerns and hesitation acquiring a guy who will be a UFA in a couple of years who plays that style. I could see him, with the cap increasing, hovering around $4-5m on the open market if he continues his 55% fo percentage, PKing and 35-38 points. Contenders will look to him as the 'final piece'. He's a good player, and he'd be useful in NY but again, it's tat UFA status that scares me off right now along with the others I laid out.

 

[LokiDog]

Fair enough, I have some concerns and hesitation acquiring a guy who will be a UFA in a couple of years who plays that style. I could see him, with the cap increasing, hovering around $4-5m on the open market if he continues his 55% fo percentage, PKing and 35-38 points. Contenders will look to him as the 'final piece'. He's a good player, and he'd be useful in NY but again, it's tat UFA status that scares me off right now along with the others I laid out.

I definitely understand the trepidation but I’d also hope that in 2.5 years we are entering our window and Jenner could likewise be that piece to us as well. Definitely a guy you win with.

 

[NYR Viper]

I definitely understand the trepidation but I’d also hope that in 2.5 years we are entering our window and Jenner could likewise be that piece to us as well. Definitely a guy you win with.

No arguments there. I like the player and really like the idea of a player or two like him.

Guys I've seen thrown around a bit:
Lawson Crouse
Trent Frederic
Julien Gautier
Alex Tuch (I really think this is a pipe-dream)
Jordan Greenway
Sam Bennett
Josh Andersson

Based on the route Gorton took in acquiring a guy like Lemieux, I'd expect a similar player/path to be taken to acquire another guy in that same mold. I think we can see what guys like Lemieux and even Trouba provide as a means of pushing back and swinging momentum. We know Gorton likes to have a nice mix of both skill as well as size/tenacity.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Not sure Columbus is in the mood to help us out when JD up and left them, and Panarin scorned them to sign with us for less money

 

[Deleted member 23124]

I am very confused by the point you are trying to make here.

The fact is those salaries are what they ended up getting and what we could have had them for. It doesnt matter what they might have wanted because they didnt get it.

The point I'm was making is that the amounts they signed for were most likely less than what they asked for.

In any event, I don't think management gave any thought to signing either of them.

 

[Deleted member 23124]

Of course, but once it got that late and they were desperate for contracts I’d have been offering the same. I’d have waived and demoted Haley or McKegg in a heartbeat to replace them with Boyle or Maroon.

Rangers might have put out some feelers and found asking price too high....that would certainly explain why they signed McKegg (although that deal is still inexplicable).

 

[LokiDog]

No arguments there. I like the player and really like the idea of a player or two like him.

Guys I've seen thrown around a bit:
Lawson Crouse
Trent Frederic
Julien Gautier
Alex Tuch (I really think this is a pipe-dream)
Jordan Greenway
Sam Bennett
Josh Andersson

Based on the route Gorton took in acquiring a guy like Lemieux, I'd expect a similar player/path to be taken to acquire another guy in that same mold. I think we can see what guys like Lemieux and even Trouba provide as a means of pushing back and swinging momentum. We know Gorton likes to have a nice mix of both skill as well as size/tenacity.

I definitely agree with this line of thinking but those are all gamble/potential breakout guys. I’d like to add two more guys of Lemieux’s ilk but don’t want all kids. There is value in vets and Jenner going on 27 isn’t “old”. I’d love to see something like Jenner and Crouse/Frederic. One vet, who at worst is a great third liner and one kid whose gonna be hungry and gritty but also may turn out as anything from a 4th liner to a complimentary top six wing.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Rangers might have put out some feelers and found asking price too high....that would certainly explain why they signed McKegg (although that deal is still inexplicable).

Boyle was rumored to have no desire to sign here.

And generally when the team moves on from a player, they usually don't bring them back for a part 2. Or at least that is what I've noticed

 

[bobbop]

The only loss I see here is concessions -- those "2000" seats may have been empty but I'd wager at least 95% were already paid for.

I’ve been told first hand that ticket revenue is way down.

 

[bobbop]

Chris Kreider is on pace for 19 goals and 41 points. The Rangers aren't getting good players for a rental. He is the last player left to trade from the Rangers glory teams.

I heard the same nonsense last season with Kevin Hayes. The Rangers should sign him because they need to ice a competitive team. The Rangers should go with Zibanejad and Hayes as their 1-2 down the middle because Chytil is really a wing and he can't play center. The Flyers gave Hayes $50M. Brooks used that same argument about getting players back for Hayes as a rental.

You think those teams trading for Hall and the stupid team signing Hall will get their money's worth?

You are not going to be satisfied until we have the average age of a NCAA team.

 

[BBKers]

Uh oh...

 

[motopanekeku]

You are not going to be satisfied until we have the average age of a NCAA team.

I'll admit I was on board with keeping Hayes. Chytl's emergence has put that to rest for me. Same with Kreider in a way. I'm glad we've held on to him up to now but the time has come to trade him to a contender. I think he's a unique player who's built for the playoffs and the return will be fair.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

You can make the argument that the team shouldn’t get too much younger, but I can’t see how anyone would be okay committing big dollars and term to Kreider

Especially after how people complained about Panarin.

Kreider is a good soldier and I’d be okay with keeping him if Panarin didn’t sign. But now that he’s here, Kreider contract would be bad the day it gets signed

 

[BBKers]

You gotta be kidding

 

[FIRE DRURY]

If you keep trading away veterans, constant rebuilding becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. That’s not the Ranger team I want to see.

What I don't want to see is veterans in their late 20's signed to retirement contracts. Been there, done that, and it's ****ed us so many times. I get what you're saying and I think most people will agree you can't just keep trading off your core - and I don't think that'll be the case with all of our Vets going forward.

Gorton is rebuilding the new core and Kreider is likely going to be moved. CK will be 29 in the spring. He's not going to take a 5X5 deal. He's going to rightfully want term. A contract similar to Hayes. Basically a contract that we should avoid like the plague.

 

[LaffyTaffy]

@BBKers hearing anything about this? Also, anything on the Rangers? Seems like we havent really been looking to make any moves due to a lack of a fully healthy lineup.

 

[kovazub94]

....

Also, this is why I wanted us to bring back Brassard who has been a decent player for the Isles this year. Insurance who can slide up and down the lineup. Provide more depth. Could play wing and center. And right now could be taking the 3C role from Howden but likely wouldnt happen because DQ is obsessed with him. Boyle was the other target. Guys we knew could handle NY. The management teams seems intent on improving this year to be a playoff bubble team. Signing either to 1 year deals would have helped in so many ways. Boyle with the PK. You could have then sold them off at the deadline if the price was right and the team was not in a playoff spot. Its a shame.

I'm sorry but it feels like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Weren't you in support of bringing both Panarin and Trouba? If so then where's the money to also bring Brassard and / or Boyle? The Rangers had a hard time fitting under the cap as is, resulting in only giving two-year contract to Buchnevich and one-year deals to ADA and Lemieux? They barely were able to move Namestnikov for a song AFTER the season started in order to simply gain some maneuvering room under the cap for later.

This is even before addressing whether this team needs these vets THIS season or your biased take on Howden vs Andersson (who objectively did worse than Howden when he was on the Rangers and has continued to do very little in the AHL).

 

[LORDE]

I'm running very low on stable genius avatars.

Certainly your best one yet IMO... Rick Sanchez next?

 

[NYR Viper]

I'm sorry but it feels like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Weren't you in support of bringing both Panarin and Trouba? If so then where's the money to also bring Brassard and / or Boyle? The Rangers had a hard time fitting under the cap as is, resulting in only giving two-year contract to Buchnevich and one-year deals to ADA and Lemieux? They barely were able to move Namestnikov for a song AFTER the season started in order to simply gain some maneuvering room under the cap for later.

This is even before addressing whether this team needs these vets THIS season or your biased take on Howden vs Andersson (who objectively did worse than Howden when he was on the Rangers and has continued to do very little in the AHL).

I do think that they also were hopeful a guy like Namestnikov was that insurance policy. It didn't work out for whatever reason in NY for him.

Also as an aside, after his hot start with Ottawa, Namestnikov is getting closer to his average output with 12 points in 23 games with them.

 

[RGY]

I'm sorry but it feels like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. Weren't you in support of bringing both Panarin and Trouba? If so then where's the money to also bring Brassard and / or Boyle? The Rangers had a hard time fitting under the cap as is, resulting in only giving two-year contract to Buchnevich and one-year deals to ADA and Lemieux? They barely were able to move Namestnikov for a song AFTER the season started in order to simply gain some maneuvering room under the cap for later.

This is even before addressing whether this team needs these vets THIS season or your biased take on Howden vs Andersson (who objectively did worse than Howden when he was on the Rangers and has continued to do very little in the AHL).

Excuse me but how is that an example of talking out of both sides of my mouth? Especially when referencing my support of bringing in Trouba and Panarin when discussing Brassard OR Boyle. Not both. If anything that sounds like my thoughts are aligned with both concepts. They could have fit one of them no matter how impossible you want to make it sound. It could have been done and the group of forwards would have been better off for it.

You discuss the cap squeeze. But these guys signed for minimal money. There were indeed options to free up money, this was discussed endlessly. They could have sent Smith down freeing up some money. They certainly did not have to have Haley on this team. But even so lets revisit the facts. Namestnikov was traded on October 7th. Brian Boyle signed on October 20th. Seems to me like there was plenty of room under the cap to add Boyle at that point.

And my lord, biased take on Lias vs Howden? What take is that? Oh the one where Howden was playing just as terrible and simply could not have hurt to give Lias time in his role with better players? But instead Lias was sent down, Howden is still being force fed minutes and he is still failing. What is the incorrect, inaccurate take? What is bias about it? I didn’t sit there and give a laundry list of reasons why Lias should have taken Howden’s role because I have some infatuation with him. Its called trying something different, especially early in the season when they both weren’t playing great, but certainly it cannot be denied that Howden was put in a more favorable position. Do you know the definition of bias? What’s even better is you point to what Lias is doing in Hartford. Incredible. Who is he playing with down there? What talent is down there? Remind me because maybe I am missing it. If you cannot understand the type of player Lias is then you really cant be claiming he is failing down there without addressing the context of things. In fact I would love to see Howden go down to improve his game.

But hey lets look where we are right now. Rangers are 4 points out of a playoff spot with 2-3 games in hand on most of those teams ahead of them. One of the glaring issues holding them back is their forward depth, specifically the 4th line. Hey yea maybe we could have used the extra veteran forward for a multitude of positive reasons that would have cost next to nothing and could be trade piece at the deadline.

Love being challenged with inaccurate facts or valid points.

 

[True Blue]

think he could be a 50 point player still.

Then he is not a third line player.

 

[Crease]

When I think about roster building, I think about where players presently fit on a contending lineup. This is how I see it:

First Line (2): Zibanejad; Panarin.
Second Line (3): Strome; Buchnevich; Kreider.
Third Line (2): Kakko; Chytil.
Fourth Line (2): Fast; Lemieux.

First Pair (1): Trouba.
Second Pair (3): DeAngelo; Fox; Skjei
Third Pair (1): Lindgren.

Press Box (7): Haley; Howden; McKegg; Nieves; Hajek; Smith; Staal.

So I think, most critically, they need a top line forward and a top pair defenseman. In addition, they've got seven guys I wouldn't expect to see the ice in the playoffs other than in an emergency. I also don't get the calls to trade guys like Strome and Buchnevich--who are filling important roles on this team and are not the problem.

 

[LokiDog]

Then he is not a third line player.

That’s kind of the point. He’s versatile. We could try him in a lot of roles. At worst he’s a great third line center. He could also click as a top six winger if given the shot or do very well as a net front PP guy. I think he *could* be a 50 point player. It would depend on usage and if we used him as our third line shutdown center then he wouldn’t be a 50 point guy. He could be a 40+ 3rd line all situations veteran with a big physical presence though.